Guess where my first patient is coming from tomorrow?

[Vette73]

Istead of spazzing out you should have waited for my edit.

Name a product line that is 100% lemon free.

ALL the major players in the pacemaker industry have pending lawsuits and class actions against them.

That alone is a clue as to why a product that costs pennies to make retails for 30 grand.

Lemon free and have a 10% failure rate are completly different. If you read the links you see they have been covering ti up for a long time as to them its cheaper to pay off some dead peoples familes then do the right thing.

If 1% of Nissian Sentras blew up and killed the driver you would think that is ok since nothing is 100%? Becuse that is what is happening with Medtronic. They know they have a issue and did a recall. But if its already installed to bad. Medicare, your insurance, or you out right have to cover the cost to remove them and then have another one put in.

Most court cass lose as you can;t prove fault. In this case the only thing saving Medtronic is a loophole from a 1976 law, not the facts.

 

[CycloWizard]

See can;t even back up your claims just have to go to name calling.

Guess being a troll is easy. Makes claims and then don;t back them up then call people names when they ask for your proof.

Sad... just sad

Who do you think you're kidding? The only people here who might think you won any argument are your fellow illiterates. People who, like you, are too stupid to live.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Aren't all the assholes that want this guy dead the same assholes that scream 'rationing'.

Probably. These assholes are apparently the only ones that realize that money is finite, that the state of California is bankrupt, and that putting a pacemaker in a guy who is about to get the chair isn't helping anyone.

Yup, what the Germans said about the Jews

 

[Moonbeam]

Who do you think you're kidding? The only people here who might think you won any argument are your fellow illiterates. People who, like you, are too stupid to live.

Yeah, the Germans said that too.

 

[CycloWizard]

Yup, what the Germans said about the Jews

Oh, so you think my not giving all of my money to you to pay for your healthcare is the same as gassing you? I think that sums up everything I might need to know about you. Your philosophy has no allowance for reality and asks everything from everyone. The more you take, the less there is to go around. So, if you really want to prove me right, turn your philosophy into the law of the land. I will probably still be here when your utopia descends into flames and riots.

 

[daishi5]

So recalls, FDA letters, and hospitals should just shut up as its part of the "inevitable failure" per your wording?
Sorry but "inevitable failure" as amused put it was liek my DVD player dieing after 10years and me suing. Not my DVD player breaks after 10 days and I should just live with it being "inevitable failure."

And for getting it wrong. Thats easy, comes down to money. Even at the Pharm companies I worked for the buck was all that mattered. They, top people, got greedy and people got sick and many lost their jobs. But don;t worry they have their golden shutes. Why change the wires or make ti better if its cheaper to hope its not a issue and its cheaper to cover the lawsuits then fix. Insert Fight club quote here.

On June 11, 2009, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued a Class 1 recall of two types of Medtronic pacemakers
http://newyorkcity.injuryboard.com/fda-and-prescription-drugs/medtronic-pacemaker-recall.aspx?googleid=269022

In November 2005, Medtronic voluntarily recalled certain Sigma Series pacemakers...

On October 15, 2007, Medtronic issued a voluntary recall of their implantable defibrillators due to defective...
http://www.levinsimeskaisergornick.com/medical-medtronic.html

02/05/2010 - Some leading hospitals are reporting failure rates for Medtronic Inc.'s fracture-prone defibrillator wires—including among young people—that are significantly higher than what the company has publicly disclosed.
http://www.ennislaw.com/medtronic-sprint-fidelis-defective-wire-leads-difibrillator-lawyer-news-02052010.html

You are really failing to read. I said that people are not perfect and therefore they will fail, that includes bad design, bad manufacturing, and bad testing. It will all happen, because people are not perfect. And then you failed to read the part where I said "they deserve to pay." I do not think it is OK, but I know that it is inevitable, and the companies that failed to protect those patients owe either the patients or the families of the patients for their failure.

Maybe this stems from a failure on your part to understand the word inevitable. It does not convey any form of moral judgement on my part about the occurrence, only my belief that the event in question cannot be avoided or stopped.

Now, if the companies are actually being criminally negligent, then it is up to the court systems and the FDA (I think) to punish them. But, I don't see anything that proves that they are anything other than "not perfect."

 

[Vette73]

You are really failing to read. I said that people are not perfect and therefore they will fail, that includes bad design, bad manufacturing, and bad testing. It will all happen, because people are not perfect. And then you failed to read the part where I said "they deserve to pay." I do not think it is OK, but I know that it is inevitable, and the companies that failed to protect those patients owe either the patients or the families of the patients for their failure.

Maybe this stems from a failure on your part to understand the word inevitable. It does not convey any form of moral judgement on my part about the occurrence, only my belief that the event in question cannot be avoided or stopped.

Now, if the companies are actually being criminally negligent, then it is up to the court systems and the FDA (I think) to punish them. But, I don't see anything that proves that they are anything other than "not perfect."

Problem is the SC said a 1976 law protects them from suit. They are not trying to show they did not have failure or knew about it, just that they are covered by law and can;t be suied.
Because of that they don;t even have to cover any of the medical cost if you have a recalled version in you. But medicare, i.e. tax payers, do.

Per my links you can see this issue has happened many times and even the FDA said their plant was out of line and needed repairs. And they don;t need to really fix their product that well as long as they can get the FDA to sign off on it then by law they can;t be sued. Hence what they have been doing.

 

[CycloWizard]

Problem is the SC said a 1976 law protects them from suit. They are not trying to show they did not have failure or knew about it, just that they are covered by law and can;t be suied.
Because of that they don;t even have to cover any of the medical cost if you have a recalled version in you. But medicare, i.e. tax payers, do.

Per my links you can see this issue has happened many times and even the FDA said their plant was out of line and needed repairs. And they don;t need to really fix their product that well as long as they can get the FDA to sign off on it then by law they can;t be sued. Hence what they have been doing.

You are still barking up a tree without a cat. No one, except in your fantasy universe of bastardized quotations, has made any statements regarding how great the Medtronic pacemaker is. Why are you still stuck on this?

 

[Jhhnn]

I thought wealth was not finite ?

That's only when Righties try to justify all of it rushing to the top of the foodchain and staying there...

Capital punishment is, of course, the ultimate State power trip. States will go to great lengths to prevent suicide, prevent prisoners from cheating the hangman, and also to prevent nature from doing the same. It's all quite ceremonial, about power, about wringing the last bit of anguish out of the prisoner before their designated time and means of death.

If anybody were serious about saving money in that regard, they'd abolish capital punishment entirely. The way the system works, it's cheaper to keep a prisoner the rest of their life, a lot cheaper, even giving them heart surgery...

 

[Vette73]

You are still barking up a tree without a cat. No one, except in your fantasy universe of bastardized quotations, has made any statements regarding how great the Medtronic pacemaker is. Why are you still stuck on this?

CycloWizard: Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life.

CycloWizard: I stated that the hospital/surgeon will select a pacemaker which gives the patient the highest quality of life. If they fail to do this, they risk a lawsuit.

Still spinning are we. As I already pointed out Modtronic can't be sued.

I guess you forget what you write others can see, even after you try and spin it.

 

[werepossum]

I love how the same Republicans who complain that there is not enough cost containment in the health care reform, area also the ones first in line to defend a battery with a tiny chip and some electrodes costing more than a car. We are talking about pace maker, you know stuff that's been around for decades, not some latest R&D miracle. In comparison, you can get multi-billion transistor chips that cost billions to develop for under 100 dollars.

I suspect that if the car had to be small enough to fit inside your chest and your life depended on it never failing, the car would be equally expensive. Mandating that pacemakers be sold for comparable prices as similar consumer electronics would have meant they were never invented - too costly for the payback. Mandating now that pacemakers be sold for comparable prices as similar consumer electronics would mean none would be implanted - the potential costs from another John Edwards would make it insane to provide that service. Eliminating all potential malpractice would cause the price to drop quite a bit - but would you want one implanted in YOUR chest? Allowing pacemakers to be implanted by nurses would certainly cut the bill, assuming malpractice was abolished - but would you want nurses implanting yours?

These things are so expensive because they are extremely expensive to design, extremely expensive to manufacture (especially in low quantities with no tolerance for failure), come with great risks which translate into great potential loss, and require highly trained, highly motivated people to properly implant. An anesthesiologist is as likely to kill you as the cardiac surgeon and must therefore not only be incredibly trained, but is highly stressed and practicing an art almost as much as a science. There is almost no ability to reduce the cost of these highly paid people without serious human cost. If we pay less - we will likely get less. The only practical way to drastically reduce costs is by reducing society (or this portion of it) to lower standards of living, such as is enjoyed by Thailand or India. We can go the route of other nations and arbitrarily cut costs, but there is no USA to bear the cost of development for us, but there is one good reason why the USA has markedly better results on equal risk patients - we pay more and therefore attract more capable people. There are no free lunches.

 

[Moonbeam]

Oh, so you think my not giving all of my money to you to pay for your healthcare is the same as gassing you? I think that sums up everything I might need to know about you. Your philosophy has no allowance for reality and asks everything from everyone. The more you take, the less there is to go around. So, if you really want to prove me right, turn your philosophy into the law of the land. I will probably still be here when your utopia descends into flames and riots.

Oh no it's not like that at all. We will be judged by how we treat the least among us so I was trying to awaken your love.

 

[ebaycj]

Profit is merely one factor that drives innovation. Necessity is the mother of invention and discontent is the father of progress.

Shh.. Don't tell him that.

To cutthroat, greedy people, profit is the ONLY factor. The rest of us like our sleep at night.

 

[theeedude]

I suspect that if the car had to be small enough to fit inside your chest and your life depended on it never failing, the car would be equally expensive. Mandating that pacemakers be sold for comparable prices as similar consumer electronics would have meant they were never invented - too costly for the payback. Mandating now that pacemakers be sold for comparable prices as similar consumer electronics would mean none would be implanted - the potential costs from another John Edwards would make it insane to provide that service. Eliminating all potential malpractice would cause the price to drop quite a bit - but would you want one implanted in YOUR chest? Allowing pacemakers to be implanted by nurses would certainly cut the bill, assuming malpractice was abolished - but would you want nurses implanting yours?

These things are so expensive because they are extremely expensive to design, extremely expensive to manufacture (especially in low quantities with no tolerance for failure), come with great risks which translate into great potential loss, and require highly trained, highly motivated people to properly implant. An anesthesiologist is as likely to kill you as the cardiac surgeon and must therefore not only be incredibly trained, but is highly stressed and practicing an art almost as much as a science. There is almost no ability to reduce the cost of these highly paid people without serious human cost. If we pay less - we will likely get less. The only practical way to drastically reduce costs is by reducing society (or this portion of it) to lower standards of living, such as is enjoyed by Thailand or India. We can go the route of other nations and arbitrarily cut costs, but there is no USA to bear the cost of development for us, but there is one good reason why the USA has markedly better results on equal risk patients - we pay more and therefore attract more capable people. There are no free lunches.

That's BS. Even if pacemakers cost more than consumer electronics, we are talking about something that costs at least 100x as much as similar piece of consumer electronics would. There is plenty of room between $300 and $30000 for reasonable profit margins on a device that has been around for decades, if there was any interest in actually controlling costs. Which is why these devices cost under $10K in pretty much every country in the world.

 

[bfdd]

The other question to ask, is the inmate on death row? Gasp, we can't execute a sick person, so we must get the person healthy, and then we can do em to death?

Just more human hypocrisy, but I stand four square against the death penalty.

But cheer up, the USA leads the world in incarnation rates, and then the taxpayer foots the bill for their health care. Lets us jail more recreational drug users, employ more prison guards, build more prisons, as we stimulate the economy. And never never do anything to rehabilitate or train the average inmate.

Actually a few guys I used to work with were ex cons who learned how to weld in prison. Used it as a way to get a good job when they got out and change their lives around. Of course they're a very very small percentage of past, present, and future inmates, but it's doable if someone chooses to.

 

[Amused]

Lemon free and have a 10% failure rate are completly different. If you read the links you see they have been covering ti up for a long time as to them its cheaper to pay off some dead peoples familes then do the right thing.

If 1% of Nissian Sentras blew up and killed the driver you would think that is ok since nothing is 100%? Becuse that is what is happening with Medtronic. They know they have a issue and did a recall. But if its already installed to bad. Medicare, your insurance, or you out right have to cover the cost to remove them and then have another one put in.

Most court cass lose as you can;t prove fault. In this case the only thing saving Medtronic is a loophole from a 1976 law, not the facts.

All irrelevant to my point: The reason why pacemakers that cost very little to produce retail at 30 or so grand.

I gave you the reason. You're completely missing the point. I don't give a damn about which company has a higher failure rate. I ONLY was seeking to explain the high price of the pacemakers.

 

[CycloWizard]

Oh no it's not like that at all. We will be judged by how we treat the least among us so I was trying to awaken your love.

But this approach is not giving me an option to treat anyone with love and respect: it's taking everything from me at gunpoint. This relieves me of any moral culpability, which is likely why it appeals to so many, but it also diminishes or removes any merit. Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. If Caesar takes everything, what's left?

 

[CycloWizard]

CycloWizard: Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life.

CycloWizard: I stated that the hospital/surgeon will select a pacemaker which gives the patient the highest quality of life. If they fail to do this, they risk a lawsuit.

Still spinning are we. As I already pointed out Modtronic can't be sued.

I guess you forget what you write others can see, even after you try and spin it.

Well, that's another failure by the government. If I ever need a pacemaker, I will be sure it is not from Medtronic, as I want some assurance of accountability.

 

[nonlnear]

Oh no it's not like that at all. We will be judged by how we treat the least among us so I was trying to awaken your love.

Keep talking big boy. I'm treating one special little friend nicely, and it's awakening my love. Oh yeah baby... Whisper those sweet collectivist nothings in my ear and I'll smack you dripping silly with the second least among us!

 

[jpeyton]

7 pages of people whining about $50k to provide essential medical care to an inmate.

Death row inmates make up 0.0001% of our prison population.

If you want to be outraged about something, complain about the billions we spend locking up people for smoking weed.

 

[CycloWizard]

Shh.. Don't tell him that.

To cutthroat, greedy people, profit is the ONLY factor. The rest of us like our sleep at night.

How many patents do you and ebaycj have? How many engineering degrees do you have? How many medical devices have you designed? I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that, between the two of you, the total for all three of these questions is zero. Otherwise, you would have an understanding of what is required to develop such devices, that innovation is worth something, and that there is no bigger motivator for these things than money. My answer to these questions is 11 (3+3+4+1 patent pending). Why would I bother investing my life in these inventions, in this career, and all of the prerequisite education if I'm not going to receive any reward for it?

You think I should innovate out of the goodness of my heart, funding the development myself, then give the product of my labor away simply because you need it. You want the doctor to install it in your heart for almost nothing, despite his years of training, the stress involved with literally holding your heart in his hands, and the experience required to deal with any complications which arise, again simply because you need it done. How does your need pay my bills? What is my motivation to innovate if I can't make a good living at it? Necessity motivates me to innovate because I assume that by meeting a need, I will be tapping into a market which will compensate me for my product.

 

[CycloWizard]

That's BS. Even if pacemakers cost more than consumer electronics, we are talking about something that costs at least 100x as much as similar piece of consumer electronics would. There is plenty of room between $300 and $30000 for reasonable profit margins on a device that has been around for decades, if there was any interest in actually controlling costs. Which is why these devices cost under $10K in pretty much every country in the world.

Still didn't answer my very simple question: why aren't you making them if they're such a cash cow?

 

[Bitek]

All irrelevant to my point: The reason why pacemakers that cost very little to produce retail at 30 or so grand.

I gave you the reason. You're completely missing the point. I don't give a damn about which company has a higher failure rate. I ONLY was seeking to explain the high price of the pacemakers.

Working at an ebil Pharma....

I can tell you there is so much more going on behind the scenes than the just the simple cost of manufacturing a unit. For 1000 employees in the plant, perhaps 100 are directly involved in the actual manufacture. All the rest is overhead to:
Quality Systems
-Regulatory
-Validation
-Compliance
-Documentation
Facilities
Management
Packaging/shipping/distribution
Customer complaints and troubleshooting
Not to mention HR and training (last is significant and mandated by FDA)


FDA regulations are very expensive and intrusive, and very much have a negative impact on innovation. Its often cheaper to design a product once and never change it thru its lifecycle than to continually improve the manu process, as all those changes require expensive re-validation and regulatory approval.

However, that is not to say I think the FDA should be done away with, or is even bad. I've seen companies that do not make FDA regulated products (say for ex-US markets) and some of the shortcuts and shit they do is scary and dangerous.

Point being, we've made a choice here to error on the side of safety (tho doesn't always seem like it) rather than efficiency. I do think FDA regs can be smarter and more effective (they sometimes worry about minutiae and miss the bigger problems) Akin to the SEC regs harassing small traders for minor infractions, but completely missing Madoff's decades-long Ponzi scheme.

Not the only issue in health care costs, but certainly a large factor.


As far as the "free coffee" statement goes: most companies have gotten really cheap. Last year we did get free coffee, but that's a first and that's about it for perks. OTOH, a lab tech will use a container that costs more than all the coffee for the facility for a week, to fill with water once and then be thrown away rather being cleaned and reused as the cleaning, documentation, testing, tracking, validation, monitoring programs, and regulatory exposure are more expensive than just buying a new one to get some more water. I shit you not.

 

[Jaskalas]

If you want to be outraged about something, complain about the billions we spend locking up people for smoking weed.

I'll let you know how pissed off I am over non violent criminals in jail.

Until such a topic I'll stick to this topic regarding how people find it strange and ironic that we're attempting to save the life of a person we've deemed should die. Make no mistake - far as I'm concerned this person on death row never should have lived long enough to have heart trouble.

It is a failure of the system.

 

[ericlp]

I'll let you know how pissed off I am over non violent criminals in jail.

Until such a topic I'll stick to this topic regarding how people find it strange and ironic that we're attempting to save the life of a person we've deemed should die. Make no mistake - far as I'm concerned this person on death row never should have lived long enough to have heart trouble.

It is a failure of the system.

Shit that's not even half of it. Wait till those weed smoking stoners come out of prison with a brand new shiny "felony" hanging over their heads!

Wait till they try to go get a job in this wonderful economy! Might as well just shoot em since the system just fucked up their lives forever. All in the name of weed! Minding their own business not hurting anyone.

Oh well, System failure -- how about life failure?