Guess where my first patient is coming from tomorrow?

[Hayabusa Rider]

Can't do it. I'll be sued, for making a life saving device that costs $30.

Talk about sick.

-John

Nope. You just do it from another country. That way you won't be sued for making it, just if something goes wrong.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's obvious from the Anesthgiolists' break-down of costs above, that the hospital is already buying a $30 pacemaker, and marking it up to $30,000.

That is Lawyers, Insurance Companies, and Government at work.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

How about I start a Hospital, where only un-insured, that sign a contract not to sue, and pay cash, are accepted?

Like a Voucher system for health-care.

Is that good for you?

-John

 

[JSt0rm]

How about I start a Hospital, where only un-insured, that sign a contract not to sue, and pay cash, are accepted?

Like a Voucher system for health-care.

Is that good for you?

-John

it wont work because they will say they were desperate and would of signed anything and still sue you.

 

[Zorkorist]

Right.

There's the rub. Or at least two facets of it. Government and Lawyers.

The more I think about it, the more it illustrates how Government is so insidious.

We'd all be fine if lawyers and insurance companies were going at it tooth and nail. It's only when Government is involved in the equation, that things get so out of hand.

We have to limit Government to fix the health-care system (among other things.)

-John

 

[ebaycj]

The only thing making it crazy expensive is health insurance suits.

-John

Which, if tort reform is put into place, will turn into 100% profit for the device manufacturer (risk goes away, price stays the same). That profit will stay for many many years until a competitor is able to scrape his way up (if one comes along at all).

 

[ebaycj]

The NIH does very little medical research relative to universities. The NIH is primarily the body through which funding for medical research flows to university labs. But don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.

Wait, so, the NIH *funds* the research.

Without funding, would the research be done at all? No.

 

[ebaycj]

I don't give a fuck about the "socialist" comment which is no doubt supposed to illicit response from someone.

As for me I've said that more money needs to be spent on research especially in the field of energy production.

I was asking a specific question about this device and procedure. I'm also interested in knowing what the costs of implanting this device is. Certainly someone is making more than a buck on it, but what is the cost of insurance, the cost of development, the costs associated with recouping money for whatever research, the costs of malpractice involved with the procedure when it fails (and it does).

I can rattle off more than that, but it all influences the cost and I don't have figures to say anything at all, except that only an idiot can look at the material cost of of an object and think that's what should be charged.

I personally believe a FULL cost breakdown of the actual cost to the manufacturer, should be REQUIRED to be made publicly available for ALL prescription drugs / medical devices. Broken out by "manufacturing costs" / "r&d amort" / "legal costs" / "taxes" / etc..

I'm fine with them making a REASONABLE profit. I'm fine with them passing on costs to customers. I'm NOT fine with making OBSCENE profit while passing all costs to customers. Let's open the books and see what's really going on.

 

[cyclohexane]

Why aren't you making them then? Answer the question or STFU.

It's not just a matter of cost. The company that makes these pacemakers (Medtronic) basically has a monopoly and is impossible to get into the market. All the doctors and hospitals have been using their devices and have the incentives to keep using them (even if they cost more, at least they know that it works)

 

[nonlnear]

I personally believe a FULL cost breakdown of the actual cost to the manufacturer, should be REQUIRED to be made publicly available for ALL prescription drugs / medical devices. Broken out by "manufacturing costs" / "r&d amort" / "legal costs" / "taxes" / etc..

I'm fine with them making a REASONABLE profit. I'm fine with them passing on costs to customers. I'm NOT fine with making OBSCENE profit while passing all costs to customers. Let's open the books and see what's really going on.

I find corporate losses to be obscene.

If you want to go with a mandated cost plus, you need to abolish medical patents. That's an option, but at least be honest about what your plan entails: nationalizing all medical IP. That obviously becomes a big problem for most people who spout schemes like this - at least for the ones who don't believe that they are fans of Hugo Chavez. THe more pragmatic issue is that once you decouple the ability to make profits from the act of inventing (which you DID do by tying profits to the act of manufacturing, and counting research as a "cost" rather than an investment with uncapped upside) you kill innovation and create great incentives to inflate costs.

Profits aren't nearly the problem certain people claim they are. Barriers to entry have more to do with high costs in most aspects of health care than profits do.

 

[Vette73]

Here we go, save CA some money and "outsource" the surgery...

http://www.medicaldiscounts.com/pacemaker.htm

Pacemaker single chamber cash discount price $5,400
Pacemaker double chamber cash discount price $7,200
Pacemaker biventricular cash discount price $13,259

Package Includes:​

• Attending Doctor/Surgeon's fees, nursing, material cost, pre and post procedure consultations, tests and physical examination.
• Medical surgical procedure hospital costs
• All ancillary medical surgical staff
• All medications, medical supplies and drugs used during the in-patient hospital stay.
• Room fees for a private air conditioned room. Notes...Room includes bathroom, TV, telephone. Room includes accommodations for one guest.
• Meals as served and available at the hospital.
• Rental of pre-activated cellular phone for use during stay. Note: Phone usage charges are not included in price.
• All diagnostic tests, laboratory, radiology etc. before and after the procedure as required for the procedure and as advised by the attending physician/surgeon.

 

[nobodyknows]

Here we go, save CA some money and "outsource" the surgery...

http://www.medicaldiscounts.com/pacemaker.htm

Pacemaker single chamber cash discount price $5,400
Pacemaker double chamber cash discount price $7,200
Pacemaker biventricular cash discount price $13,259

Package Includes:​

• Attending Doctor/Surgeon's fees, nursing, material cost, pre and post procedure consultations, tests and physical examination.
• Medical surgical procedure hospital costs
• All ancillary medical surgical staff
• All medications, medical supplies and drugs used during the in-patient hospital stay.
• Room fees for a private air conditioned room. Notes...Room includes bathroom, TV, telephone. Room includes accommodations for one guest.
• Meals as served and available at the hospital.
• Rental of pre-activated cellular phone for use during stay. Note: Phone usage charges are not included in price.
• All diagnostic tests, laboratory, radiology etc. before and after the procedure as required for the procedure and as advised by the attending physician/surgeon.

Now, now Marlin, why talk about cutting costs we can can get alll faux outraged about someone on death row getting a $50,000 pacemaker to keep him alive long enough to execute him.

Don't you know health care is too expensive for the masses, let them eat cake.

 

[soulcougher73]

What i find funny is people arguing the price of the thing more then the principle of it. $50k of taxpayer money to keep a guy alive who is on death row. That is rediculous. Just let his heart fail on its own of natural causes. Death row is a joke in this country anyways.

 

[nonlnear]

What i find funny is people arguing the price of the thing more then the principle of it. $50k of taxpayer money to keep a guy alive who is on death row. That is rediculous. Just let his heart fail on its own of natural causes. Death row is a joke in this country anyways.

Death row after appeals is a joke I'll grant you. If you are a fan of the death penalty then it makes the most sense to do the deed expeditiously after appeals have been exhausted.

For people who oppose the death penalty, delayed executions are a pragmatic stopgap to ending the practice. It's far from a solution, but it does serve a purpose for them.

 

[Vette73]

Death row after appeals is a joke I'll grant you. If you are a fan of the death penalty then it makes the most sense to do the deed expeditiously after appeals have been exhausted.

For people who oppose the death penalty, delayed executions are a pragmatic stopgap to ending the practice. It's far from a solution, but it does serve a purpose for them.

Problem is it cost more to kill someone then lock them up for life, let aloen the fact we have put people to death that we are 100% sure did not do the crime they were convicted of.

Look how many people today get off.

I am only for death penalty when the crime is overly gruesome and we have so much proof its not even close. So much proof even the person admits it but tries the twinkie type defense, not the not me...

 

[Vette73]

Now, now Marlin, why talk about cutting costs we can can get alll faux outraged about someone on death row getting a $50,000 pacemaker to keep him alive long enough to execute him.

Don't you know health care is too expensive for the masses, let them eat cake.

Well if thats to good for the person, we can save airfare and send them to mexico for the same work...

https://www.healthbase.com/hb/cm/price-of-dual-chamber-pacemaker-in-mexico.html

 

[nobodyknows]

What i find funny is people arguing the price of the thing more then the principle of it. $50k of taxpayer money to keep a guy alive who is on death row. That is rediculous. Just let his heart fail on its own of natural causes. Death row is a joke in this country anyways.

What principle are you speaking of, certainly not due process? I agree that when looking at it from a strictly common sense POV it makes no sense, but if he had appendicitis should we just let him die of that also?

 

[nobodyknows]

Well if thats to good for the person, we can save airfare and send them to mexico for the same work...

https://www.healthbase.com/hb/cm/price-of-dual-chamber-pacemaker-in-mexico.html

LOL, then Slewfoot and Hayubassa Rider could have even more time to post on the internet.

 

[nonlnear]

Problem is it cost more to kill someone then lock them up for life, let aloen the fact we have put people to death that we are 100% sure did not do the crime they were convicted of.

I wasn't really trying to invoke a cost argument at all. I was simply saying that if the sentence is death, and there are no appeals left, then the sentence should be executed. Not doing so makes a mockery of the sentence and the system.

Look how many people today get off.

I am only for death penalty when the crime is overly gruesome and we have so much proof its not even close. So much proof even the person admits it but tries the twinkie type defense, not the not me...

If I had a decades long posting history here, you would be hard pressed to find me ever say anything good about the death penalty. I have no faith in the criminal justice system. Despite the fact that I believe there are many crimes that deserve death, I can't imagine a trial that warrants that much faith. That said I believe that it is vital to enact the laws as they stand if for no other reason than to expose their idiocy and thereby hasten their repeal.

 

[daishi5]

It's not just a matter of cost. The company that makes these pacemakers (Medtronic) basically has a monopoly and is impossible to get into the market. All the doctors and hospitals have been using their devices and have the incentives to keep using them (even if they cost more, at least they know that it works)

Taking a quick look at medtronics, they have revenue of 14 billion, and net income of 2.1 billion. So, a 15% profit margin. It does sound like a high % to me, but not astronomical. If they really have a monopoly, I would assume their costs are probably too high, but I can't even guess at what part of the cost that makes up. But, from what I have, it seems their profit on a $30 k pacemaker is about $4.5k. Too much, not enough, or just right? I don't know, just throwing it out there.

 

[Throckmorton]

Look at it this way. The death penalty is immoral anyway, and you're keeping someone alive to effectively serve a life sentence

 

[Vette73]

Taking a quick look at medtronics, they have revenue of 14 billion, and net income of 2.1 billion. So, a 15% profit margin. It does sound like a high % to me, but not astronomical. If they really have a monopoly, I would assume their costs are probably too high, but I can't even guess at what part of the cost that makes up. But, from what I have, it seems their profit on a $30 k pacemaker is about $4.5k. Too much, not enough, or just right? I don't know, just throwing it out there.

PLEASE stop using that same BS answer everybody uses. Well they took in 10mill. and profit was only 1mill they are pretty lean...

Sorry but that is BS. I worked in 2 differant Pharm companies and trust me their overhead was not lean at all. The last place I worked they had free soda drinks, breakfast on friday, specility coffees, etc... and that was for the regular bottom people. Yea their profit margin was around average but once you cut out the padding the top people and the little that trickled down the "profit" was MUCH larger. Let alone all that was spent to "talk" with doctors and those that made spending decisions. Of course those had to happen in FL resort, Vegas, etc...

When I went to work for the Fed Gov man now that was day and night. Older computers, no real fridge at my first office, toaster was brought in, no parking, etc... I learned real fast what a lean operation was compared to Pharm companies.

 

[CycloWizard]

Wait, so, the NIH *funds* the research.

Without funding, would the research be done at all? No.

The NIH takes tax dollars and redistributes it based on a highly-politicized proposal review process. The NIH is simply a vehicle by which congress politicizes the process and ensures that money flows to their favorite projects rather than having a true merit-based system. If we didn't have taxes to pay for this sort of thing, it's likely that a lot more private research would be done. Indeed, before the NIH became a funding agency, private research expenditures were much higher, so the answer to your question is actually, "Yes."

 

[CycloWizard]

I personally believe a FULL cost breakdown of the actual cost to the manufacturer, should be REQUIRED to be made publicly available for ALL prescription drugs / medical devices. Broken out by "manufacturing costs" / "r&d amort" / "legal costs" / "taxes" / etc..

I'm fine with them making a REASONABLE profit. I'm fine with them passing on costs to customers. I'm NOT fine with making OBSCENE profit while passing all costs to customers. Let's open the books and see what's really going on.

Do you personally believe that a company would bother to develop such a product subject to the whims of what you consider a "reasonable" profit? Hell no. Profit is the incentive which drives innovation. You want to take that away, but somehow keep innovation going. Good luck with that.

 

[CycloWizard]

It's not just a matter of cost. The company that makes these pacemakers (Medtronic) basically has a monopoly and is impossible to get into the market. All the doctors and hospitals have been using their devices and have the incentives to keep using them (even if they cost more, at least they know that it works)

They have a monopoly on the current generation of pacemakers because theirs is better than the competition's. They did not invent the pacemaker - they substantially improved it and made it cheaper to the point where it was difficult to compete with them. There is no reason (except lack of technical expertise) someone else couldn't come along and develop a better one. Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life. If they don't, their patients will go to a different hospital. Amazing how all of these things work themselves out, yet those ignorant of how medical device R&D works want the government to do something!!!1!