[GPU.RU]Playing the first half of 2013 against modern cards

[rgallant]

That's why you buy two 770s or 680s even 670s and overclock em. You'll be faster than a 780 at 1440p/1600p.

-that's always a option , but at this point I'll wait for the 20nm.
-so far the 580's run games petty good at 900 mhz. and vram has not been a big issue but I know it's coming.

 

[RussianSensation]

-that's always a option , but at this point I'll wait for the 20nm.
-so far the 580's run games petty good at 900 mhz. and vram has not been a big issue but I know it's coming.

Sell those 580s and get 2x 760s. An overclocked 760 would level a 580.

That's easily the most bang for the buck upgrade from your 580s.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Right and nobody is denying that. Nvidia has cards at every price level including the ultra high end niche. I think people are just looking at it as price gouging for the high end cards because they expect high end performance in the sub $600 range again.

What nvidia is doing i think is clever marketing. Its like johnny walker scotch. They sell blue label for $200 but gold is about $80. There are probably many people who spring for the gold because they have the perception of getting "almost the same thing at a huge cost savings". They don't need to sell a ton of the blue for the effect to work. This could apply to the titan. Some people pay for the best because it is the top of the line. Others look at the next ones down and say "hey it isn't much different and it is $400 cheaper." I am sure there is a similar effect.

When you put it that way, it really is clever marketing. I'm not exactly sure to what degree it would work, but I could understand someone buying a 780 because of that.
This makes me sad, because the people who fall for this keep the prices this high. Yes, there is always the enthusiast group who must get the top (or near top) of the line hardware to run their games. However, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people don't need to spend the extra 300 dollars on a card that gives very slight performance increases.

I really hope AMD's next generation brings back pricing competition like the HD 4xxx and 5xxx series did.



Also, people please look at absolute value instead of comparative value. If a company comes out with an ultra-overpriced product and then comes out with a super-overpriced product, please don't be tempted to buy it. It limits everyone else (who is budget conscious)'s options

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Yup, you are doing it wrong. Enthusiasts on our forum overclock cards.

We're talking about the guaranteed performance AMD offered vs the same from Nvidia.

Nvidia didn't drop the price on the year and half old 580 like AMD has because they didn't over charge for it initially like AMD did.

Not me. I'd rather buy a $550 mid-range card that pays for itself.

Is that another "Enthusiast" thing, not using your VC and beating it to death running continuous intensive code to help child pornographers move their royalties?

 

[cmdrdredd]

-that's always a option , but at this point I'll wait for the 20nm.
-so far the 580's run games petty good at 900 mhz. and vram has not been a big issue but I know it's coming.

Understood. If I didn't have 670s and I had a pair of 580s I'd do the same thing I think.

When you put it that way, it really is clever marketing. I'm not exactly sure to what degree it would work, but I could understand someone buying a 780 because of that.
This makes me sad, because the people who fall for this keep the prices this high. Yes, there is always the enthusiast group who must get the top (or near top) of the line hardware to run their games. However, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people don't need to spend the extra 300 dollars on a card that gives very slight performance increases.

I really hope AMD's next generation brings back pricing competition like the HD 4xxx and 5xxx series did.



Also, people please look at absolute value instead of comparative value. If a company comes out with an ultra-overpriced product and then comes out with a super-overpriced product, please don't be tempted to buy it. It limits everyone else (who is budget conscious)'s options

That just won't happen. There are multiple people on these very forums with two Titans in SLI and in the 4k monitor thread have mentioned the possibility of buying a 3rd or 4th titan to go with their $3500 monitor. They have the money to spend on basically anything they want. You'll never change that group.

As more people buy 1440/1600p monitors it will necessitate a higher end card purchase than if they were on 1080p. Unless they are ok with running SLI.

 

[3DVagabond]

That's nonsense. Value is always relative, never absolute. If we follow that logic, everyone can claim bad value for anything because it's not fast enough for their personal taste. Besides, there is a thing called graphics options.

Why don't people see the point of the post they are responding to?

60fps is an accepted "standard of performance" that has been around for a long time. It's not some arbitrary personal number that rgallant has decided on. What he's saying is that one 780 isn't powerful enough and two are too expensive making it poor value because it sits in a no man's land. Where 2x 760's, or 770's, or 7950's, or 7970's would give you that 60fps performance level for far less money.

While this might not be your personal, or everyone here's ideal level of performance, it's not, as you refer to it, "nonsense" and simply "personal taste". It's a legitimate point and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand like you are trying to make it.

 

[MrK6]

Yup, you are doing it wrong. Enthusiasts on our forum overclock cards. An overclocked 7970 mopped the floor with an 860mhz 580. Even if you took a 950mhz 580, it would be 40-50% behind an overclocked 7970. Your 20% advantage you keep repeating for the least 2.5 years is stock vs. stock.

[Images Removed]

It depends what position you are looking at. If someone makes $1 million a month and GTX780 costs $20,000 USD, it's still dirt cheap for them. If someone makes $1000 a month and GTX780 is $650 but gaming is their primary hobby, maybe they can justify it still. When we compare cards and say one card is overpriced, the statement is strictly in FPS/$ terms in the GPU stack. It's obvious that if gaming is someone's primary hobby or if they make a lot of $ where spending $650 vs. $350 makes no difference to them, then to them GTX780 is awesome value. Strictly on a price/performance curve, 770/780 are overpriced relative to other GPU offerings, for instance 1Ghz 7970.



That's straight up from the Apple handbook. You are using the price of one overpriced product as justification for another overpriced product. Just because GTX780 is $350 less than the Titan doesn't somehow give it a pass for good value.

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2013/nvidia-geforce-gtx-780-im-test/14/

Using your logic if NV tomorrow released a 2880 cores GK110 and priced it at $2,000, then the Titan would suddenly become good value too? Doesn't work that way.



That's why for me 780/Titan are stop-gap cards that don't make much sense at $650-1000. They can't provide the needed boost in demanding games like C3 and yet by the time we get a lot of PS4/XB1 console ports, we'll have Maxwell at least. Once next gen PC ports come out, I'll want a card at least 75-100% faster than HD7970 OC. GTX780 won't cut the mustard. It's the same story with 8800GTX vs. 3870. Sure 8800GTX stomped it but in the context of next gen PS3/XB360 PC ports, we just upgraded to keep up with future PS3/360 ports.



Not me. I'd rather buy a $550 mid-range card that pays for itself and makes $ many times over its price in the 1.5 years it took the $650 card to come out.

Excellent post and great points all around. :thumbsup:

Sales charts? http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

You got a better link than what I just provided? 6970 usage is abysmal. The gtx570 to gtx580 ratio is 3:2. Looks pretty much like you are dead wrong. The gtx580 sold just fine despite being 40% more expensive for 15% more performance.

First, that's a usage chart, not a sales chart. Second, you can at best assume assume a correlation, but I'm going to guess that difference is lost on you. Go do the research I actually told you to before you post again and stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[3DVagabond]

Yup, you are doing it wrong. Enthusiasts on our forum overclock cards. An overclocked 7970 mopped the floor with an 860mhz 580. Even if you took a 950mhz 580, it would be 40-50% behind an overclocked 7970. Your 20% advantage you keep repeating for the least 2.5 years is stock vs. stock.

We're talking about the guaranteed performance AMD offered vs the same from Nvidia.

Nvidia didn't drop the price on the year and half old 580 like AMD has because they didn't over charge for it initially like AMD did

It depends what position you are looking at. If someone makes $1 million a month and GTX780 costs $20,000 USD, it's still dirt cheap for them. If someone makes $1000 a month and GTX780 is $650 but gaming is their primary hobby, maybe they can justify it still. When we compare cards and say one card is overpriced, the statement is strictly in FPS/$ terms in the GPU stack. It's obvious that if gaming is someone's primary hobby or if they make a lot of $ where spending $650 vs. $350 makes no difference to them, then to them GTX780 is awesome value. Strictly on a price/performance curve, 770/780 are overpriced relative to other GPU offerings, for instance 1Ghz 7970.



That's straight up from the Apple handbook. You are using the price of one overpriced product as justification for another overpriced product. Just because GTX780 is $350 less than the Titan doesn't somehow give it a pass for good value.

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2013/nvidia-geforce-gtx-780-im-test/14/

Using your logic if NV tomorrow released a 2880 cores GK110 and priced it at $2,000, then the Titan would suddenly become good value too? Doesn't work that way.



That's why for me 780/Titan are stop-gap cards that don't make much sense at $650-1000. They can't provide the needed boost in demanding games like C3 and yet by the time we get a lot of PS4/XB1 console ports, we'll have Maxwell at least. Once next gen PC ports come out, I'll want a card at least 75-100% faster than HD7970 OC. GTX780 won't cut the mustard. It's the same story with 8800GTX vs. 3870. Sure 8800GTX stomped it but in the context of next gen PS3/XB360 PC ports, we just upgraded to keep up with future PS3/360 ports.



Not me. I'd rather buy a $550 mid-range card that pays for itself and makes $ many times over its price in the 1.5 years it took the $650 card to come out.

Is that another "Enthusiast" thing, not using your VC and beating it to death running continuous intensive code to help child pornographers move their royalties?

Balla, do you really think that you've given an acceptable response to refute Russian's post? You need to try a bit harder.

You start off with a complete inaccuracy. nVidia actually does not guarantee that the card you buy will perform like the review samples. The only number that's guaranteed is the base clock number, and that's only if the card doesn't get warm. Warm as in, "run the card for 10mins in a closed case" warm. Do that and you won't even get the base clock. So, I'd call that far from guaranteed. If we were to follow your parameter we would need to disable boost entirely and run the cards in a typical environment, gaming for 10mins before any results were taken. The boost clock number is only there as an average of what can be expected from cards. No guarantees at all whether warm, cool, or whatever.

Then you move on to a complete strawman with the beating the VC to death and child pornography BS. There is zero evidence that bitcoin mining is causing any premature wear on the cards. There are people who have been mining 24/7 for years without failure. Where's the evidence that bitcoins have contributed in any way to child pornography? Is there any statistical evidence at all that bitcoins have had any effect on any illegal market? Take off your tin hat. There are no deeper conspiracies going on.

All the while completely ignoring the bulk of the post because you can't even come up with a made up response to that.

 

[Jaydip]

Yup, you are doing it wrong. Enthusiasts on our forum overclock cards. An overclocked 7970 mopped the floor with an 860mhz 580. Even if you took a 950mhz 580, it would be 40-50% behind an overclocked 7970. Your 20% advantage you keep repeating for the least 2.5 years is stock vs. stock.

It depends what position you are looking at. If someone makes $1 million a month and GTX780 costs $20,000 USD, it's still dirt cheap for them. If someone makes $1000 a month and GTX780 is $650 but gaming is their primary hobby, maybe they can justify it still. When we compare cards and say one card is overpriced, the statement is strictly in FPS/$ terms in the GPU stack. It's obvious that if gaming is someone's primary hobby or if they make a lot of $ where spending $650 vs. $350 makes no difference to them, then to them GTX780 is awesome value. Strictly on a price/performance curve, 770/780 are overpriced relative to other GPU offerings, for instance 1Ghz 7970.



That's straight up from the Apple handbook. You are using the price of one overpriced product as justification for another overpriced product. Just because GTX780 is $350 less than the Titan doesn't somehow give it a pass for good value.

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2013/nvidia-geforce-gtx-780-im-test/14/

Using your logic if NV tomorrow released a 2880 cores GK110 and priced it at $2,000, then the Titan would suddenly become good value too? Doesn't work that way.



That's why for me 780/Titan are stop-gap cards that don't make much sense at $650-1000. They can't provide the needed boost in demanding games like C3 and yet by the time we get a lot of PS4/XB1 console ports, we'll have Maxwell at least. Once next gen PC ports come out, I'll want a card at least 75-100% faster than HD7970 OC. GTX780 won't cut the mustard. It's the same story with 8800GTX vs. 3870. Sure 8800GTX stomped it but in the context of next gen PS3/XB360 PC ports, we just upgraded to keep up with future PS3/360 ports.



Not me. I'd rather buy a $550 mid-range card that pays for itself and makes $ many times over its price in the 1.5 years it took the $650 card to come out.

NV could price Titan/780 high because AMD offers no competition.AMD didn't lower their price until 680 came out and offered better value.Corporations are there to make many, they are not charity.

 

[Elfear]

Nvidia didn't drop the price on the year and half old 580 like AMD has because they didn't over charge for it initially like AMD did.

You sure about that?

GTX 580 cost 35% more for 13% more performance compared to the 6970. *Single GPU flagship comparison*

The 580 cost 5% more than the 5970 and was 9% slower. *Flagship comparison*

Is that another "Enthusiast" thing, not using your VC and beating it to death running continuous intensive code to help child pornographers move their royalties?

Either you're just trolling at this point and in no way answered RS's post or you really believe mining is all about helping out the child porn industry in which case I'm speechless since you have been actively mining for months now. So which is it?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

You sure about that?

Yes, very much so.

GTX 580 cost 35% more for 13% more performance compared to the 6970. *Single GPU flagship comparison*

570 (though once overclocked was better) competed with the 6970, 580 was in a leage of it's own. Price/performance never scales as you go higher up in performance.

The 580 cost 5% more than the 5970 and was 9% slower. *Flagship comparison*

-snip-

What a wonderful experiment FCAT would be on such a card.

Either you're just trolling at this point and in no way answered RS's post or you really believe mining is all about helping out the child porn industry in which case I'm speechless since you have been actively mining for months now. So which is it?

I quit when I learned what I should have accepted to be the truth from the start. It's a black market operation, did anyone here actually think it was legit?

 

[Elfear]

Yes, very much so.

570 (though once overclocked was better) competed with the 6970,

Wait, I thought overclocking wasn't supposed to enter into a conversation about video cards. :hmm:

580 was in a leage of it's own. Price/performance never scales as you go higher up in performance.

Kind of like the 7970 vs 580?

What a wonderful experiment FCAT would be on such a card.

It's amazing how many people used multi-GPUs in the past and never knew how horrible their experience was. Where was FCAT when we needed our delusions dispelled?

I quit when I learned what I should have accepted to be the truth from the start. It's a black market operation, did anyone here actually think it was legit?

I heard a rumor that some blackmarket deals are paid for with dollars. You should probably give up using that currency. :sneaky:

 

[DarkKnightDude]

Wait, bitcoin mining helps the the child porn industry (Notice the lack of proof or sources from balla)? Does that mean I should stop using the US dollar since currency is used to support drug cartels or wars or big banks?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Wait, bitcoin mining helps the the child porn industry (Notice the lack of proof or sources from balla)? Does that mean I should stop using the US dollar since currency is used to support drug cartels or wars or big banks?

I figured it was common knowledge at this point, if you are unsure I suggest google.

It's not the same thing since you are essentially laundering the money for them. It's not that the currency valuation derives from the black market, though of course that's bad enough, it's the fact that you are laundering the money so it's not traceable (or would be harder to trace). However the US Gov saw this and actually shut some places down due to it's affiliation, bitcoin client coders in return decided to remove all existence of older transactions to prevent this from happening again.

Shady is as shady does.

 

[Piroko]

Then it is exactly as shady as paying with dollar bills is.

 

[Gikaseixas]

Price/performance never scales as you go higher up in performance.

Balla you said that to defend Nvidia's GTX 580 price. The same can be applied to AMD's 7970 price too then.
If you say otherwise you'll be showing double standards and that's not what we expect from a logical guy like yourself

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Balla you said that to defend Nvidia's GTX 580 price. The same can be applied to AMD's 7970 price too then.
If you say otherwise you'll be showing double standards and that's not what we expect from a logical guy like yourself

It's true, I'm still just hung up on the absurdity of mid-range going to $500, ridiculous on both sides.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

It's true, I'm still just hung up on the absurdity of mid-range going to $500, ridiculous on both sides.

You're mid range label did not apply in January of 2012. So why was a faster GPU that actually sold for less than the gtx580 3gb absurd then?

If we were talking about something other than video cards I'm sure more of you would actually think about this logically.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Why don't people see the point of the post they are responding to?

60fps is an accepted "standard of performance" that has been around for a long time. It's not some arbitrary personal number that rgallant has decided on. What he's saying is that one 780 isn't powerful enough and two are too expensive making it poor value because it sits in a no man's land. Where 2x 760's, or 770's, or 7950's, or 7970's would give you that 60fps performance level for far less money.

While this might not be your personal, or everyone here's ideal level of performance, it's not, as you refer to it, "nonsense" and simply "personal taste". It's a legitimate point and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand like you are trying to make it.

No one forces him to play at maximum details. If you had read my post, you would know that. If performance is too low, reduce details. This is the first logical solution - a solution, that people seem to be allergic against or have forgotten.

And people still have not understood that you cannot compare AFR with non-AFR when it comes to framerates. Not even SLI.

I figured it was common knowledge at this point, if you are unsure I suggest google.

It's not the same thing since you are essentially laundering the money for them. It's not that the currency valuation derives from the black market, though of course that's bad enough, it's the fact that you are laundering the money so it's not traceable (or would be harder to trace). However the US Gov saw this and actually shut some places down due to it's affiliation, bitcoin client coders in return decided to remove all existence of older transactions to prevent this from happening again.

Shady is as shady does.

This is so hypocritical. On the one hand, people endorse bitcoining, all the while making money at the expense of other people. Wasting energy and supporting shady activity as well. And THEN they have the audacity to bash companies for wanting to make money the honest way. Or at least more honest than what they are doing since their activities don't get us great products that we all can enjoy and provide jobs for thousand of people. Bitcoining is about pure greed with no real use, nothing else.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Do we need to go through this every time? Let's just agree to disagree, it's tiring arguing the same tired arguments with the same people in different threads all the time.

I don't care what AMD did in Janaury of 2012, because in March 2012 nVidia brought a mid-range product to market that competed directly with AMD's high end. A few months following that release Nvidia started shipping GK110.

However you want to look at it is fine by me, it's just not going to change my opinion - which I've held consistently from the 7970 release, through rumors of GTX 680, as well as GK110 GeForce.

I'm not playing the who released first climb the ladder game, the market moves too slow to look at such segmented portions of a generation.

 

[3DVagabond]

No one forces him to play at maximum details. If you had read my post, you would know that. If performance is too low, reduce details. This is the first logical solution - a solution, that people seem to be allergic against or have forgotten.

And people still have not understood that you cannot compare AFR with non-AFR when it comes to framerates. Not even SLI.

No one forces anyone to do anything. How does that address the ~doubling of the cost of video cards this generation?

As far as dual GPU goes, you might not like it and don't see the value of it. Many though use it to increase performance for the smaller investment and are perfectly satisfied. Or reach levels of performance that a single GPU can't achieve. Maybe they're blind and don't see the flaws as you seem to? Or, maybe you've just been influenced by all of the negative press?

This is so hypocritical. On the one hand, people endorse bitcoining, all the while making money at the expense of other people. Wasting energy and supporting shady activity as well. And THEN they have the audacity to bash companies for wanting to make money the honest way. Or at least more honest than what they are doing since their activities don't get us great products that we all can enjoy and provide jobs for thousand of people. Bitcoining is about pure greed with no real use, nothing else.

I don't blame nVidia or AMD for the price people are willing to pay for video cards. This is not an attack on the vendors. This is advice to the end users. Them charging what people are willing to pay is not evil. It's not like the pharmaceutical companies charging ridiculous amounts of money for a few cents worth of chemicals because people have no choice and need the medicine. That's evil. Until people refuse to pay the price they'll just carry on. Nothing shady or evil. What I don't understand are people defending the pricing like it's necessary.

What is dishonest or greedy about bitcoin mining? What expense are other people paying? What shady activity are they supporting? If you are referring to people using bitcoins for illicit purposes, they'll do that whether you or I mine or not. Look at all of the hardship in the middle east. It's funded from imported oil. It's legitimate governments selling them the weapons. That's not what causes the problems though. The money isn't inherently evil. Without the money that comes from oil they'd just resort to hacking each other to death with machetes like they do elsewhere in the world.

The only mention of bitcoin mining was the value it added to the hardware that was used to mine with. Which is a valid point.

 

[cmdrdredd]

That's like saying NV had little reason to drop prices on GTX280 because HD4870 was not a real competition. HD7970 OC beat GTX580 OC by much more than GTX780 OC beats HD7970 OC.

AMD asked $100 premium over 580 1.5GB versions, while NV is asking $350 extra over 1Ghz 7970! That means NV is asking us to pay way more and performance increase is way less than AMD delivered. All those people who ripped 7970's launch pricing should be even more upset at the 780's price. Some of those people are actually defending 780's price. This doesn't compute since 780 is far worse price/performance increase over 7970 Ghz than 7970 was over 580.

What about 770 4GB for $450? 50% more expensive for less than 10% higher performance. Horrible value.

NV prices 770/780/Titan so high because people keep buying. Otherwise we would have already seen price drops/rebates.

Cause now nvidia has a card that is more directly comparable to the GHz 7970. The 780 is not that card.

 

[SirPauly]

You're mid range label did not apply in January of 2012. So why was a faster GPU that actually sold for less than the gtx580 3gb absurd then?

Not absurd but may be backlash depending on what the competition offered considering it was AMD that marketed and evangelized the sweet spot strategy for many generations. This only made sense to me if AMD speculated that the GK-104 couldn't compete and the bigger monolith die from nVidia was needed like past generations -- and that was speculated to be some time away! AMD may of felt that they had these price-points to themselves with no competition for some time and desired to reap the rewards with only the GK-104 to compete with.

Gk-104 surprised AMD to me!

 

[ruhtraeel]

Understood. If I didn't have 670s and I had a pair of 580s I'd do the same thing I think.



That just won't happen. There are multiple people on these very forums with two Titans in SLI and in the 4k monitor thread have mentioned the possibility of buying a 3rd or 4th titan to go with their $3500 monitor. They have the money to spend on basically anything they want. You'll never change that group.

As more people buy 1440/1600p monitors it will necessitate a higher end card purchase than if they were on 1080p. Unless they are ok with running SLI.

As long as the aforementioned group stays small, I'll be happy. I don't want to see people fall for the $650 GTX 780 marketing trick, rather than actually needing the card.

I think it's not really about whether or not you have enough money to spend. I'm pretty sure most people here could buy 4x Titans if they wanted, but it's just not a smart purchase for 99% of people. I don't go around buying Titans and 3960X's just because I can, and I wouldn't expect many other people to.
I'd also expect most people to buy 2 cards and SLI them if they needed it for a higher-res monitor. It is much more cost effective that way, even though Nvidia gimps the VRAM on their cards to discourage this.

If the Radeon 9970 is around 780/Titan performance for $450-$550, I would be fine with that.

 

[ocre]

Sales charts? http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

You got a better link than what I just provided? 6970 usage is abysmal. The gtx570 to gtx580 ratio is 3:2. Looks pretty much like you are dead wrong. The gtx580 sold just fine despite being 40% more expensive for 15% more performance.

according to those results.......
-the 680 is more popular than the 7870, 7770, gtx 650 and exactly on par with the popular 7850.
-the gtx 670 is more popular now than the 9800gt which has long held the top slots of the steam survey for so long

These kind of blow the theory that people dont buy high end video cards out of the water.