[GPU.RU]Playing the first half of 2013 against modern cards

[Jaydip]

Without the sales figures of specific parts that's just all guesswork and hypothesis, isn't it? However, if you actually DO take a look at sales figures, you'll see that cards >$500 generally account for less than <1% of sales. And again, the GTX 780 isn't the fastest card, so what is nvidia going to brag about in advertising? That its second fastest single GPU is only 20% faster than the competitors (or its own GTX 770) but costs 60%+ more? That doesn't seem like a great tagline.

They were, go look at the sales charts. I find the irony of your outburst hilarious though, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the phrase "flawed logic." However, what does it matter what I personally have done or bought? I'm more than happy to agree that I am part of a small echelon of users who are willing and able to spend more than $500 on a video card. I'm also an astute consumer and like to compare what I'm getting for my money no matter how much I'm spending. However none of that negates what I've said. Because you're personally upset that my logical argument disagrees with your personal bias doesn't mean you should go on the ad hominem. Grow up.

AT messed my reply, it is not showing up :'( anyways My point is faster cards give you a better brand recognition which helps sell the lower end skus as well.Intel's extreme edition processors are a joke compared to NV's counterparts and still it gives Intela better brand image.If AMD can come out with a card faster than Titan/780 it would be awesome for AMD's brand image, no denying it.

 

[3DVagabond]

Where were those people when the 7970 and 7950 came out with abysmal performance gains over previous generations?

Where were they when mid-range GK104 came out at $500 and beat those two cards? Not only did this signal AMDs woeful performance gains, but it also make it clear you were paying $500 for mid-range 28nm performance.

Where were they when AMD released an overclocked 7970 and 7950 to retain their price brackets?

This entire generation has been disapproval worthy.

You don't remember anyone complaining about the 7970's release price? I'm sure you do. Without looking back, I'm pretty certain you were one of them.

This is exactly why when people say AMD is going to force prices down, I say they are wrong. AMD is more likely to join the party. We are the only ones who can force prices down by refusing to pay twice as much. Especially now that 28nm is mature.

You really need to get past December 2011. It's been almost 2 years since Tahiti was released. Move up to the present with an almost 2 year old process demanding $650 to $1000 for harvested chips and people are defending it with marketing claims. How much were your 470's, which were the equivalent of 770's now? IIRC, you paid less for all three of them than one 770 currently costs.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I guess my problem is I'd rather be the guy that got suckered into a $650 high end product than a $550 mid-range one.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I guess my problem is I'd rather be the guy that got suckered into a $650 high end product than a $550 mid-range one.

This is one instance where time and current GPU markets actually do factor in. That $550 midrange part can be had for as low as $340 right now according to google shopping (says newegg smoking deal by the way). When the $550 mid range part was released the competition's comparable card was $550-600 and 30% slower.

I love the spin you put on it using release prices from over a year apart though. How good of a value proposition is gtx580 3gb at $550-$600 vs. hd 7970 at $550 in 2011 against the Titan at $1000 vs. the hd 7970 at $340? The 7970 was around 30% faster than the gtx580 at launch in 2011. The Titan is around 30% faster in 2013 now. The only people who got truly suckered are buying these halo parts in 2013.

Since they are halo parts though it's to be expected.

 

[SirPauly]

Ask AMD to do more! The monolith has separated and now the GK-104 competes with AMD's finest!

A third tier GF-110 was offered for 289 dollars to compete with AMD

A fourth tier GK-110 now has a 649 MSRP.

Pricing reminds me of the 8800 GTX and Ultra days!

What AMD may do may be tough to gauge, for me, based on many factors with their next family!

 

[3DVagabond]

Ask AMD to do more! The monolith has separated and now the GK-104 competes with AMD's finest!

A third tier GF-110 was offered for 289 dollars to compete with AMD

A fourth tier GK-110 now has a 649 MSRP.

Pricing reminds me of the 8800 GTX and Ultra days!

What AMD may do may be tough to gauge, for me, based on many factors with their next family!

Haven't you been paying attention? What makes you think AMD is going to do anything to lower prices?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

This is one instance where time and current GPU markets actually do factor in.

I just don't see how you can say "Oh Nvidia is so evil, $650", $500 for their mid-range GPU seemed more evil to me.

7970 was 20% faster than the 580, and it released in 2012 - paper launches don't count.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong though?

 

[Leadbox]

I just don't see how you can say "Oh Nvidia is so evil, $650", $500 for their mid-range GPU seemed more evil to me.

7970 was 20% faster than the 580, and it released in 2012 - paper launches don't count.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong though?

If comparing launch prices of products that are more than a year separated and the one is only some ~20% faster now doesn't strike you as odd, then no, you're not doing it wrong

 

[SirPauly]

Haven't you been paying attention? What makes you think AMD is going to do anything to lower prices?

They have with their products this generation and added impressive bundles!

 

[ruhtraeel]

IMO purely from a card standpoint (not including bundles), GTX 780 and Titan aren't very good deals. A Radeon 7970 for 300-350 gives like 85% performance of a 780 at pretty much half the price.

A GTX 760 is a good deal I think, apparently beating out the 7950 in a lot of cases, as well as having more features for $250, which is usually less than a 7950.

GTX 650Ti Boost also seems like a good deal compared to AMD alternatives, beating out a 7850 and also being cheaper.

Should be interesting to see what AMD pulls out in October, with Maxwell also around the corner meaning that they would need to compete with both 7xx series and Maxwell.

 

[cmdrdredd]

IMO purely from a card standpoint (not including bundles), GTX 780 and Titan aren't very good deals. A Radeon 7970 for 300-350 gives like 85% performance of a 780 at pretty much half the price.

A GTX 760 is a good deal I think, apparently beating out the 7950 in a lot of cases, as well as having more features for $250, which is usually less than a 7950.

GTX 650Ti Boost also seems like a good deal compared to AMD alternatives, beating out a 7850 and also being cheaper.

Should be interesting to see what AMD pulls out in October, with Maxwell also around the corner meaning that they would need to compete with both 7xx series and Maxwell.

Right and nobody is denying that. Nvidia has cards at every price level including the ultra high end niche. I think people are just looking at it as price gouging for the high end cards because they expect high end performance in the sub $600 range again.

What nvidia is doing i think is clever marketing. Its like johnny walker scotch. They sell blue label for $200 but gold is about $80. There are probably many people who spring for the gold because they have the perception of getting "almost the same thing at a huge cost savings". They don't need to sell a ton of the blue for the effect to work. This could apply to the titan. Some people pay for the best because it is the top of the line. Others look at the next ones down and say "hey it isn't much different and it is $400 cheaper." I am sure there is a similar effect.

 

[sontin]

I don't understand the price discussion. nVidia offers the same performance for the same price in these segments they are competing with AMD.

If you cant or want not afford a GTX780 or Titan you can buy a cheaper product with less performance.

And Titan is now 5 months on the market and AMD has still nothing to put pressure on nVidia. So maybe people should start to critize AMD for taking a break for hyping these cool new super consoles.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I just don't see how you can say "Oh Nvidia is so evil, $650", $500 for their mid-range GPU seemed more evil to me.

7970 was 20% faster than the 580, and it released in 2012 - paper launches don't count.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong though?

The 7970 was cheaper than the comparable gtx580 3gb and 15-25% faster.

I am not saying nvidia is evil, I am saying that anyone who even compares the launch price if the 7970 vs. the gtx580 and the gtx 780 vs. 7970 is out of touch with reality. Completely.

 

[boxleitnerb]

If anything, this comparison would be in favor of Nvidia since they could not claim the benefit of a new process and a relatively small GPU. GK110 is 550mm2 and still on 28nm (just as Tahiti).

 

[Smoblikat]

To me the real winner is 780, providing good performance at a competitive price compared to Titan.

What? How can it be priced "competitively" when you are comparing it to a product being offered by the same company? Thats not called competition, its called good money making skills and top notch marketing scams.

 

[Jaydip]

What? How can it be priced "competitively" when you are comparing it to a product being offered by the same company? Thats not called competition, its called good money making skills and top notch marketing scams.

??? I am utterly confused.780 is providing ~95% of Titan's performance for $350 less, that's great value.The same way 7950 is good value.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

??? I am utterly confused.780 is providing ~95% of Titan's performance for $350 less, that's great value.The same way 7950 is good value.

Astronomical buttrape + less astronomical buttrape = great value.:hmm:

 

[Jaydip]

Astronomical buttrape + less astronomical buttrape = great value.:hmm:

You got it all wrong, Astronomical buttrape-rape = Astronomical butt

I don't like Titan's price not even a bit, but I am sure some people will find many uses of it's 6 GHz vram and unlocked DP.

 

[rgallant]

per the link @ 2560 x 1600 the gtx 780 can't hit 60fps so to me it's a poor value if I need to buy 2 [$1300 +tax,+ blocks],to play 2013 games , even before the new console ports are released.

 

[tviceman]

They were, go look at the sales charts. I find the irony of your outburst hilarious though, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the phrase "flawed logic." However, what does it matter what I personally have done or bought? I'm more than happy to agree that I am part of a small echelon of users who are willing and able to spend more than $500 on a video card. I'm also an astute consumer and like to compare what I'm getting for my money no matter how much I'm spending. However none of that negates what I've said. Because you're personally upset that my logical argument disagrees with your personal bias doesn't mean you should go on the ad hominem. Grow up.

Sales charts? http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

You got a better link than what I just provided? 6970 usage is abysmal. The gtx570 to gtx580 ratio is 3:2. Looks pretty much like you are dead wrong. The gtx580 sold just fine despite being 40% more expensive for 15% more performance.

 

[boxleitnerb]

per the link @ 2560 x 1600 the gtx 780 can't hit 60fps so to me it's a poor value if I need to buy 2 [$1300 +tax,+ blocks],to play 2013 games , even before the new console ports are released.

That's nonsense. Value is always relative, never absolute. If we follow that logic, everyone can claim bad value for anything because it's not fast enough for their personal taste. Besides, there is a thing called graphics options.

 

[cmdrdredd]

The 7970 was cheaper than the comparable gtx580 3gb and 15-25% faster.

I am not saying nvidia is evil, I am saying that anyone who even compares the launch price if the 7970 vs. the gtx580 and the gtx 780 vs. 7970 is out of touch with reality. Completely.

What about when the 680 released for $50 less and better performance? It happens all the time. I always expect the new card to beat the old card. If it doesn't, whatever manufacturer released the card didn't do their job.

It doesn't matter what company did what. It could have been the other way around for all it matters to me. Nvidia has no reason to budge on current pricing of either the Titan or 780 because there is no competition for it.

 

[RussianSensation]

7970 was 20% faster than the 580, and it released in 2012 - paper launches don't count.

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong though?

Yup, you are doing it wrong. Enthusiasts on our forum overclock cards. An overclocked 7970 mopped the floor with an 860mhz 580. Even if you took a 950mhz 580, it would be 40-50% behind an overclocked 7970. Your 20% advantage you keep repeating for the least 2.5 years is stock vs. stock.

That's nonsense. Value is always relative, never absolute.

It depends what position you are looking at. If someone makes $1 million a month and GTX780 costs $20,000 USD, it's still dirt cheap for them. If someone makes $1000 a month and GTX780 is $650 but gaming is their primary hobby, maybe they can justify it still. When we compare cards and say one card is overpriced, the statement is strictly in FPS/$ terms in the GPU stack. It's obvious that if gaming is someone's primary hobby or if they make a lot of $ where spending $650 vs. $350 makes no difference to them, then to them GTX780 is awesome value. Strictly on a price/performance curve, 770/780 are overpriced relative to other GPU offerings, for instance 1Ghz 7970.

??? I am utterly confused.780 is providing ~95% of Titan's performance for $350 less, that's great value.The same way 7950 is good value.

That's straight up from the Apple handbook. You are using the price of one overpriced product as justification for another overpriced product. Just because GTX780 is $350 less than the Titan doesn't somehow give it a pass for good value.

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2013/nvidia-geforce-gtx-780-im-test/14/

Using your logic if NV tomorrow released a 2880 cores GK110 and priced it at $2,000, then the Titan would suddenly become good value too? Doesn't work that way.

per the link @ 2560 x 1600 the gtx 780 can't hit 60fps so to me it's a poor value if I need to buy 2 [$1300 +tax,+ blocks],to play 2013 games , even before the new console ports are released.

That's why for me 780/Titan are stop-gap cards that don't make much sense at $650-1000. They can't provide the needed boost in demanding games like C3 and yet by the time we get a lot of PS4/XB1 console ports, we'll have Maxwell at least. Once next gen PC ports come out, I'll want a card at least 75-100% faster than HD7970 OC. GTX780 won't cut the mustard. It's the same story with 8800GTX vs. 3870. Sure 8800GTX stomped it but in the context of next gen PS3/XB360 PC ports, we just upgraded to keep up with future PS3/360 ports.

I guess my problem is I'd rather be the guy that got suckered into a $650 high end product than a $550 mid-range one.

Not me. I'd rather buy a $550 mid-range card that pays for itself and makes $ many times over its price in the 1.5 years it took the $650 card to come out.

 

[cmdrdredd]

per the link @ 2560 x 1600 the gtx 780 can't hit 60fps so to me it's a poor value if I need to buy 2 [$1300 +tax,+ blocks],to play 2013 games , even before the new console ports are released.

That's why you buy two 770s or 680s even 670s and overclock em. You'll be faster than a 780 at 1440p/1600p.

 

[RussianSensation]

It doesn't matter what company did what. It could have been the other way around for all it matters to me. Nvidia has no reason to budge on current pricing of either the Titan or 780 because there is no competition for it.

That's like saying NV had little reason to drop prices on GTX280 because HD4870 was not a real competition. HD7970 OC beat GTX580 OC by much more than GTX780 OC beats HD7970 OC.

AMD asked $100 premium over 580 1.5GB versions, while NV is asking $350 extra over 1Ghz 7970! That means NV is asking us to pay way more and performance increase is way less than AMD delivered. All those people who ripped 7970's launch pricing should be even more upset at the 780's price. Some of those people are actually defending 780's price. This doesn't compute since 780 is far worse price/performance increase over 7970 Ghz than 7970 was over 580.

What about 770 4GB for $450? 50% more expensive for less than 10% higher performance. Horrible value.

NV prices 770/780/Titan so high because people keep buying. Otherwise we would have already seen price drops/rebates.