Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
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Is Loras a skilled swordsman other than the obvious double entendre of his dalliance with Renly? He's known as being an excellent jouster, but the only time I recall seeing him with a sword in hand he got his ass kicked by Brienne. The renowned sword fighters are Jaime, Barristan Selmy, Ned, Gregor, Sandor and it can be assumed Bronn is in that league. Loras is never mentioned alongside those guys.
The Lannister guards are kicking around who is the best, and Loras is named as possibly being as good as Jamie. Everyone was surprised when Brienne beat him. You'd have to assume he's one of the best.
 

raasco

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2009
2,664
3
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The question really is if it will be a fair fight, since Oberyn is a master of poisons. I predict a little unfair advantage coming his way.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
You knew it wasn't working in the last sequence they showed as Bronn took the gold hand and knocked him around with it. He was garbage all along and it was easy to see.
Uh, all that showed was that Jamie was fighting honorably and Bronn was fighting to win. In fact Bronn bluntly stated this lesson after the fact. Jamie appeared to be holding his own sword-wise, forcing Bronn to improvise.

Seems the issue of Jamie's fighting ability is one of those weird literary paradoxes where an outcome is "obvious" only to those who weren't paying attention.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
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The question really is if it will be a fair fight, since Oberyn is a master of poisons. I predict a little unfair advantage coming his way.
Are there rules to these types of trials? Otherwise one stroke with a poisoned blade from Oberyn and the Mountain's done. From what we saw at the Aerie it seemed fairly free-form.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
1,995
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I think Loras was always said to be a renowned swordsmen. In one seen, two Lannister soldiers were talking about who was the best swordsmen and Loras' name did come up. One then joked "he's been stabbing Renly for years, and he ain't dead", but he was still regarded as good.

You're right, I forgot about that scene. Now I have to go back and find it to see what they said.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
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Are there rules to these types of trials? Otherwise one stroke with a poisoned blade from Oberyn and the Mountain's done. From what we saw at the Aerie it seemed fairly free-form.
I believe in Tyrion's first trial they did accuse Bronn of not fighting "honorably" and he replied with a "No, but he did." referring to the knight he just killed.
 

KillerBee

Golden Member
Jul 2, 2010
1,753
82
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The question really is if it will be a fair fight, since Oberyn is a master of poisons. I predict a little unfair advantage coming his way.

Yeah with the way Bronn talked about the Mountain
I can't see Oberyn winning unless he did use some poison tipped sword.

I can't see them killing off Tyrion - the show would suck without him
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
8,042
1,347
126
Uh, all that showed was that Jamie was fighting honorably and Bronn was fighting to win. In fact Bronn bluntly stated this lesson after the fact. Jamie appeared to be holding his own sword-wise, forcing Bronn to improvise.

Seems the issue of Jamie's fighting ability is one of those weird literary paradoxes where an outcome is "obvious" only to those who weren't paying attention.
And the times before where Bronn didn't mention it and still beat him handily.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
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And the times before where Bronn didn't mention it and still beat him handily.
Which supports my argument. Jamie was getting noticeably better over time.

To spell it out:
1. Jamie complains to Tyrion that he can't fight with his left and can't find a trainer.
2. Tyrion reccomend Bronn.
3. Jamie trains with Bronn, gets his ass handed to him.
4. Jamie trains with Bronn, gets his ass handed to him a little less.
5. Jamie trains with Bronn, holds his own with the sword and forces Bronn to improvise. Hence the grin on his face when he successfully blocked Bronn right before Bronn grabbed his fake hand.

I'm willing to admit that he isn't good enough to take on the mountain yet, but I was kinda WTF at the "couldn't beat a stableboy" line given that sequence of events.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
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Please do name all these other "highly skilled swordsmen" they have lying around. The best swordsmen are dead, one handed, or gone. The only person besides the Mountain known to be a good fighter is Loras, who conveniently is a Tyrell and whose family would never allow him to fight. The Crown will call whoever they think is the best fighter, before Tyrion even gets a chance to name his fighter. Would Tywin, who suspects Jaime to be worthless with a sword, allow Jaime to be called to fight for Tyrion?

Oberyn has done nothing but cry about his sister and fuck whores while in King's Landing. Well, that and confirm Joffrey was poisoned. The only logical choice for the Crown (and Cersei, the accuser) to call would be the Mountain. Bronn was the only ally Tyrion had, and as a sellsword, not exactly loyal. I could see expecting him to fight for Tyrion, but not expecting Oberyn to at least voice his enthusiasm to kill the Mountain in the trial is just not paying attention.
Why does it have to be a named character? In his first trial by combat Tyrion put Bronn up against some noname.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
As I mentioned a hundred or more posts back, you have to remember that the accuser is Cersei, not Tywin. Cersei wants Tyrion dead, no matter the cost. Thus, she elects Gregor as her champion, knowing that pretty much anyone Tyrion can come up with would defecate their trousers at the thought of Gregor. Cersei is so irrational in her rage against Tyrion that even had Jaime elected to champion him, Cersei would have let Gregor kill him.
Didn't Lysa choose the champion in the first trial, where Catelyn was the accuser?
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
8,042
1,347
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Which supports my argument. Jamie was getting noticeably better over time.

To spell it out:
1. Jamie complains to Tyrion that he can't fight with his left and can't find a trainer.
2. Tyrion reccomend Bronn.
3. Jamie trains with Bronn, gets his ass handed to him.
4. Jamie trains with Bronn, gets his ass handed to him a little less.
5. Jamie trains with Bronn, holds his own with the sword and forces Bronn to improvise. Hence the grin on his face when he successfully blocked Bronn right before Bronn grabbed his fake hand.

I'm willing to admit that he isn't good enough to take on the mountain yet, but I was kinda WTF at the "couldn't beat a stableboy" line given that sequence of events.
Yeah, I'm not sold that he was getting any better. I certainly didn't see it, and his expressions/body language showed as much. I think something else that showed it was him giving away Oathkeeper to Brienne. If he thought he was still a swordsman, why give away one of the best swords in the world?
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
8,042
1,347
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Why does it have to be a named character? In his first trial by combat Tyrion put Bronn up against some noname.
Because at the time, the Eyrie hadn't been shown at all, nor had anyone from the court. We've had 4 seasons of getting familiar with those around King's Landing.
 

MiataNC

Platinum Member
Dec 5, 2007
2,215
1
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I thought Tyrion would use Jaime based purely on the fact that Tywin wouldn't want to see his heir die, and would be forced to send some scrub up against Jaime. The mountain/oberyn thing is just too convenient for Tyrion. They could have picked any other highly-skilled swordsman for the job, but they pick the 1 guy in the world that Oberyn wants revenge on. It doesn't make sense.
My opinion (never read the books)...

It makes sense when you consider the scene between Cersi and Tywin where he basically tells her she isn't half as smart as she thinks she is. When you look back she does more harm than good when she tries to play shenanigans in court. Look how well poisoning Robert worked out.

She picked the Mountain, because she is so intent on seeing Tyrion dead, she isn't thinking through the consequences. She picked the worst possible champion from a purely political standpoint. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a scene in the next episode where Tywin blasts her for being so stupid. Any member of the King's Guard or knight of the court could stand-in as a "scrub" to fight Tyrion's champion. Regardless of the outcome Tyrion is done.

Winning the trial by combat spares Tyrion's life, but it doesn't exonerate him (or Sansa) in anyone's mind. He is still as good as dead with regards to being a member of court or an heir to the Lannisters. It would be extremely poor writing if things went along like nothing happened should Tyrion win. A king was murdered. People don't forget or forgive that (eg Jamie the Kingslayer). Cersi could have him killed a thousand different ways down the road and no one would bat an eye. She just isn't smart enough to figure that out for herself.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
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Why does it have to be a named character? In his first trial by combat Tyrion put Bronn up against some noname.
So, the Crown (via Cercei) would put up a fighter nobody has ever heard about? Does that seem at all logical? This is the same person who is trying to hardest to see this person die for killing her son. She would name an unknown fighter to possibly lose? Or, does it make the most sense to name someone that is known to be near unbeatable? In the first of Tyrion's trials it had to be done right then. They weren't going to summon the best knights in all of Westeros to fight. It didn't matter who stepped up, because the idea was nobody would fight FOR Tyrion. He just got lucky and gambled that someone looking for money would see he had a lot of it and fight for him.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
So, the Crown (via Cercei) would put up a fighter nobody has ever heard about? Does that seem at all logical? This is the same person who is trying to hardest to see this person die for killing her son. She would name an unknown fighter to possibly lose? Or, does it make the most sense to name someone that is known to be near unbeatable? In the first of Tyrion's trials it had to be done right then. They weren't going to summon the best knights in all of Westeros to fight. It didn't matter who stepped up, because the idea was nobody would fight FOR Tyrion. He just got lucky and gambled that someone looking for money would see he had a lot of it and fight for him.
How does it make any more sense from the Lannister's point of view to put the Mountain up when Tywin should absolutely know that Oberyn, one of the most dangerous fighters in westeros, would want a shot at him? Unless Tywin wants Tyrion to have a chance at survival?

Even if they put up Meryn fucking Trant, nobody is going to volunteer to be Tyrion's champion. Bronn got paid off so they wouldn't have to worry about him.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
1,995
126
Why does it have to be a named character? In his first trial by combat Tyrion put Bronn up against some noname.
He wasn't a "noname". While the story arc didn't pay much attention to him he was Captain of the Guard at the Eyrie, so their version of Barristan Selmy. A bunch of lesser knights volunteered and Lysa turned to him as the person she expected to step up. He was their best guy.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
351
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How does it make any more sense from the Lannister's point of view to put the Mountain up when Tywin should absolutely know that Oberyn, one of the most dangerous fighters in westeros, would want a shot at him? Unless Tywin wants Tyrion to have a chance at survival?

Even if they put up Meryn fucking Trant, nobody is going to volunteer to be Tyrion's champion. Bronn got paid off so they wouldn't have to worry about him.
Tywin doesn't seem to have control over Cersei's prosecution. If she wants the Mountain, she'd get the Mountain, Tywin likely wouldn't be able to stop her.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
78
86
How does it make any more sense from the Lannister's point of view to put the Mountain up when Tywin should absolutely know that Oberyn, one of the most dangerous fighters in westeros, would want a shot at him? Unless Tywin was Tyrion to have a chance at survival?

Even if they put up Meryn fucking Trant, nobody is going to volunteer to be Tyrion's champion. Bronn got paid off so they wouldn't have to worry about him.
If they put up Meryn Trant, Bronn wouldn't be so easily bought. And, Tywin isn't the one calling the champion. The accuser pickers their champion (or themselves) and the accused does the same. Bronn not fighting the Mountain is because his chances of winning are slim enough it isn't worth the risk. If it was Meryn Trant, it wouldn't be a risk fighting him. He could easily defeat that guy. Hell, I'd put Pod to win against Meryn Trant.

Cercei is not smart. She is vindictive and blinded by rage towards Tyrion. She picked the champion most likely to win (the best swordsmen of note still available).
 
Mar 10, 2005
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I just have this empty feeling about the trial by combat.

In the courtroom it is believed that such a combat would produce the correct victor by the hands of the gods. But outside of the courtroom they all believe that to be pure bullshit.

So, none of them believe there is anything godly at all about the combat, yet they still agree to it as an acceptable alternative to a court trial?

That's why I was believing in Jaime being the champion, because the gods are supposed to give him the power to win, that's how this universe is said to work.
trial by combat has just as much merit as that farce of a court trial.
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
Agree. That scene with Oberyn yesterday was amazing. He did a lot by doing very little. Impressive scene.

KT
I wonder how much of the dialogue in that script mirrored his real life experiences with dwarfism? I wonder how much of his emotion he dug into in that scene as well. His small mannerisms during that scene seemed to indicate some real sting in the words.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,070
2,535
126
How does it make any more sense from the Lannister's point of view to put the Mountain up when Tywin should absolutely know that Oberyn, one of the most dangerous fighters in westeros, would want a shot at him? Unless Tywin wants Tyrion to have a chance at survival?

Even if they put up Meryn fucking Trant, nobody is going to volunteer to be Tyrion's champion. Bronn got paid off so they wouldn't have to worry about him.
Too bad the Hound wasn't still around. He'd have no problem with Trant.

Someone needs to stick a sword in that guy.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Too bad the Hound wasn't still around. He'd have no problem with Trant.

Someone needs to stick a sword in that guy.
Is he on Arya's list?

I'm getting upset that everyone on Arya's list is getting killed by other means...
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
107,531
23,408
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It was 100% obvious it wouldn't be Jaime. It was already known Jaime couldn't fight. He even admitted this to Tyrion before he started his training with Bronn. The only plausible choice was Bronn, and even then, Oberyn would volunteer to fight the Mountain, regardless of Tyrion's "choice". Surely, you saw this coming.
horseshit. Every episode this season was setting up for a big principles fight--not as much for some barely seen, hardly talked about, 3 times-cast man beast vs a newly-introduced secondary foil. Yes, that was setup, but the evidence for Jamie vs X was in equal abundance, if not more so. ANyone who ignores that is just being willfully stupid.

Again, no reason to buy he "wasn't ready" based on what was shown. If Rocky is shown to spend a gay day frolicking on the beach with Apollo Creed to prepare him to fight Clubber Lang, then we sure as shit got enough of Jamie learning how to fight to assume that he would be involved very soon. It's a very common trope.

I think the Mountain vs Oberyn is good drama, and yes it was setup (never so specifically to fight for Tyrion's defense; but to fight somehow), but Jamie vs Mountain or whomever is the better impact. It's "drama first," more than this situation.
 

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