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Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,710
5
0
As much as I hate that little twerp kid I'd much rather see that pedophile snake bastard die a horrible death.

Sansa should report the murder of the Lady to the lords of the Vale
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,243
110
116
It was pretty obvious. 100% of Oberyn's screen time involved him stating, at least one, he wanted to avenge his sister and her children. Everyone knew the Mountain was "Tywin's mad dog", and a likely candidate in the absence of any real fighters for the Crown. Cersei wouldn't name Jaime, and Barristan is gone (and those are pretty much the last of the "best swordsmen' around, as Ned is dead). The Hound already establish that outside of little girls, Trant is worthless. And, if the Mountain was named, Oberyn has been crying about vengeance long enough, why wouldn't you expect him to step forward, even if he dislikes Tyrion (and all Lannisters). This gives him a legal, and public, way to fight the Mountain.
Right and I brought all of that up a couple of pages back, but to say it was 100% obvious that it would be him, particularly given the fact Tyrion went to the other two very obvious candidates, Jaime and Bronn, first, is absurd. The other two were just as viable for those of us who did not have any further knowledge of the outcome.

You can only say it was 100% obvious because you already knew the outcome.

KT
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
I think that description is from the book. They didn't really show a good example of it.

Be honest, if you saw that actor coming at you in real life, you'd run away crying.
This was just to set up that the Mountain wasn't some oaf that was easily defeated and advance Bronn's character as someone who fancies himself and gold over Tyrion's friendship.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
Right and I brought all of that up a couple of pages back, but to say it was 100% obvious that it would be him, particularly given the fact Tyrion went to the other two very obvious candidates, Jaime and Bronn, first, is absurd. The other two were just as viable for those of us who did not have any further knowledge of the outcome.

You can only say it was 100% obvious because you already knew the outcome.

KT
It was 100% obvious it wouldn't be Jaime. It was already known Jaime couldn't fight. He even admitted this to Tyrion before he started his training with Bronn. The only plausible choice was Bronn, and even then, Oberyn would volunteer to fight the Mountain, regardless of Tyrion's "choice". Surely, you saw this coming.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
As much as I hate that little twerp kid I'd much rather see that pedophile snake bastard die a horrible death.

Sansa should report the murder of the Lady to the lords of the Vale
Uh, last I checked Sansa is past puberty; the actress who plays her certainly is. Pedophilia not found.

And Baelisch would simply deny it.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
It was 100% obvious it wouldn't be Jaime. It was already known Jaime couldn't fight. He even admitted this to Tyrion before he started his training with Bronn. The only plausible choice was Bronn, and even then, Oberyn would volunteer to fight the Mountain, regardless of Tyrion's "choice". Surely, you saw this coming.
Yeah... and? That would be what the training was supposed to fix. They subsequently showed his skills improving as he trained with Bronn. We didn't know until this episode that the training had been ineffective.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,710
5
0
Now that we know who is going to fight, what about the hypothetical situations:

The Mountain vs Bronn? I'd say Bronn. Bronn has got the speed and quick wit to evade and surprise the Mountain

The Mountain vs Jaime? Pretty safe to assume The Mountain would beat left handed Jaime any day. What about a Jaime who is whole? Had Jaime kept his right hand would he be good enough to beat The Mountain? I still dont think so because he is not as willing to do dirty tricks like Bronn to win. He has too much pride.

The Mountain vs The Hound? Hmm, that's a tough one. I would say the Hound though only because the Hound would channel this bottled up anger from childhood and he doesn't care about honor, will do whatever it takes to win. They did have a quick little spar during season 1 right? I dont quite remember how that went but I seem to recall The Hound doing good against him...

The Mountain vs. Mind Controlled Hodor? lol pretty sure Hodor would get cut in half just trying to run up to the Mountain trying to grab his neck. Who is bigger in the show btw? Is Hodor actually larger than the Mountain or they about the same size?
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,710
5
0
Uh, last I checked Sansa is past puberty; the actress who plays her certainly is. Pedophilia not found.

And Baelisch would simply deny it.
Not talking about the actual acress, but I thought Sansa was 15 or 16 in the show. While Baelish is like 45-50?

You dont call that pedophilia?! o_O
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
24
91
Right and I brought all of that up a couple of pages back, but to say it was 100% obvious that it would be him, particularly given the fact Tyrion went to the other two very obvious candidates, Jaime and Bronn, first, is absurd. The other two were just as viable for those of us who did not have any further knowledge of the outcome.

You can only say it was 100% obvious because you already knew the outcome.
This!

The show clearly wanted us to think Jaime/Bronn first (which most of us did), which in last night's show clearly that's how the story was told. And then we were shown desperate Tyrion out of ideas, not knowing who else would he ask to be his champion (and have a reasonable chance to win against The Mountain). And *then* comes Oberyn, seemingly out of nowhere, offering to be his champion.

I can't believe the book readers couldn't see/admit this, but based on the TV show, Oberyn's offering to champion for Tyrion on last night's episode is supposed to be a surprise! for the show watchers. Otherwise they wouldn't have built up the scenes like that: Jaime --> sucks at fighting now, Bronn --> sorry bro, I like you but I like myself better. Desperate Tyrion suddenly out of options, and here comes Oberyn. And no, he didn't just offer to become a champion to avenge his sister, he was shown to actually have a sympathy towards Tyrion, otherwise why would they even bother to have him tell the story when they first met, shortly after Tyrion was born ("sure, his head was a little big, and his limbs were a little short, but no claws, no red eyes, and no tail. that was not a monster").

Added: Btw, I just checked and the episode summary for last night's episode includes: "Tyrion gains an unlikely ally". Show watchers are supposed to be surprised as the ally wasn't supposed to be obvious, much less 100%.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
Not talking about the actual acress, but I thought Sansa was 15 or 16 in the show. While Baelish is like 45-50?

You dont call that pedophilia?! o_O
Pedophilia = attraction to sexually immature children. Anything with a fully developed set of boobs doesn't qualify.

This isn't my definition by the way: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia

A pedophile is a person who has a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger.
18 being the age of consent is a completely artificial standard that has nothing to do with sexual development.
 
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manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,561
8
0
Peter Dinklage should win lots awards for this season. His portrail of his wounds from familial warfare the last few episodes has been amazing.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,243
110
116
Peter Dinklage should win lots awards for this season. His portrail of his wounds from familial warfare the last few episodes has been amazing.
Agree. That scene with Oberyn yesterday was amazing. He did a lot by doing very little. Impressive scene.

KT
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,368
4
81
It was 100% obvious it wouldn't be Jaime. It was already known Jaime couldn't fight. He even admitted this to Tyrion before he started his training with Bronn. The only plausible choice was Bronn, and even then, Oberyn would volunteer to fight the Mountain, regardless of Tyrion's "choice". Surely, you saw this coming.
I thought Tyrion would use Jaime based purely on the fact that Tywin wouldn't want to see his heir die, and would be forced to send some scrub up against Jaime. The mountain/oberyn thing is just too convenient for Tyrion. They could have picked any other highly-skilled swordsman for the job, but they pick the 1 guy in the world that Oberyn wants revenge on. It doesn't make sense.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,243
110
116
This!

The show clearly wanted us to think Jaime/Bronn first (which most of us did), which in last night's show clearly that's how the story was told. And then we were shown desperate Tyrion out of ideas, not knowing who else would he ask to be his champion (and have a reasonable chance to win against The Mountain). And *then* comes Oberyn, seemingly out of nowhere, offering to be his champion.

I can't believe the book readers couldn't see/admit this, but based on the TV show, Oberyn's offering to champion for Tyrion on last night's episode is supposed to be a surprise! for the show watchers. Otherwise they wouldn't have built up the scenes like that: Jaime --> sucks at fighting now, Bronn --> sorry bro, I like you but I like myself better. Desperate Tyrion suddenly out of options, and here comes Oberyn. And no, he didn't just offer to become a champion to avenge his sister, he was shown to actually have a sympathy towards Tyrion, otherwise why would they even bother to have him tell the story when they first met, shortly after Tyrion was born ("sure, his head was a little big, and his limbs were a little short, but no claws, no red eyes, and no tail. that was not a monster").

Added: Btw, I just checked and the episode summary for last night's episode includes: "Tyrion gains an unlikely ally". Show watchers are supposed to be surprised as the ally wasn't supposed to be obvious, much less 100%.
Ahh, yes, nice catch!

KT
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
I thought Tyrion would use Jaime based purely on the fact that Tywin wouldn't want to see his heir die, and would be forced to send some scrub up against Jaime. The mountain/oberyn thing is just too convenient for Tyrion. They could have picked any other highly-skilled swordsman for the job, but they pick the 1 guy in the world that Oberyn wants revenge on. It doesn't make sense.
Please do name all these other "highly skilled swordsmen" they have lying around. The best swordsmen are dead, one handed, or gone. The only person besides the Mountain known to be a good fighter is Loras, who conveniently is a Tyrell and whose family would never allow him to fight. The Crown will call whoever they think is the best fighter, before Tyrion even gets a chance to name his fighter. Would Tywin, who suspects Jaime to be worthless with a sword, allow Jaime to be called to fight for Tyrion?

Oberyn has done nothing but cry about his sister and fuck whores while in King's Landing. Well, that and confirm Joffrey was poisoned. The only logical choice for the Crown (and Cersei, the accuser) to call would be the Mountain. Bronn was the only ally Tyrion had, and as a sellsword, not exactly loyal. I could see expecting him to fight for Tyrion, but not expecting Oberyn to at least voice his enthusiasm to kill the Mountain in the trial is just not paying attention.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,299
349
126
Brienne and the Mountain would have been a cool fight. She was worse than Jaime, better than Loras, but now has Valyrian steel, any parry would slice right through the Mountain's sword.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
6,568
1,221
126
I thought Tyrion would use Jaime based purely on the fact that Tywin wouldn't want to see his heir die, and would be forced to send some scrub up against Jaime. The mountain/oberyn thing is just too convenient for Tyrion. They could have picked any other highly-skilled swordsman for the job, but they pick the 1 guy in the world that Oberyn wants revenge on. It doesn't make sense.
As I mentioned a hundred or more posts back, you have to remember that the accuser is Cersei, not Tywin. Cersei wants Tyrion dead, no matter the cost. Thus, she elects Gregor as her champion, knowing that pretty much anyone Tyrion can come up with would defecate their trousers at the thought of Gregor. Cersei is so irrational in her rage against Tyrion that even had Jaime elected to champion him, Cersei would have let Gregor kill him.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
Brienne and the Mountain would have been a cool fight. She was worse than Jaime, better than Loras, but now has Valyrian steel, any parry would slice right through the Mountain's sword.
I don't know if Brienne was worse than Jaime. The only fight they had, she had the upper hand, but Jaime did have his hands bound.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,525
42
86
I just have this empty feeling about the trial by combat.

In the courtroom it is believed that such a combat would produce the correct victor by the hands of the gods. But outside of the courtroom they all believe that to be pure bullshit.

So, none of them believe there is anything godly at all about the combat, yet they still agree to it as an acceptable alternative to a court trial?

That's why I was believing in Jaime being the champion, because the gods are supposed to give him the power to win, that's how this universe is said to work.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,299
349
126
I don't know if Brienne was worse than Jaime. The only fight they had, she had the upper hand, but Jaime did have his hands bound.
Jaime had been starved for months, and had his hands bound. Let's be realistic here, Jaime would have won.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,301
1,992
126
This!

The show clearly wanted us to think Jaime/Bronn first (which most of us did)
The show did everything possible to clearly show that it was NEVER going to be Jaime. Bronn yes, he was the obvious choice to stand in, but Jaime not in a million years. How much more obvious could it have been? They showed the training sessions and they showed Jaime getting his ass kicked. How on earth do you make the leap to the show wanting you to think of Jaime first? The show had nothing to do with leading you down that farcical path, it was entirely your own doing.
 
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GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,301
1,992
126
Please do name all these other "highly skilled swordsmen" they have lying around. The best swordsmen are dead, one handed, or gone. The only person besides the Mountain known to be a good fighter is Loras, who conveniently is a Tyrell and whose family would never allow him to fight.
Is Loras a skilled swordsman other than the obvious double entendre of his dalliance with Renly? He's known as being an excellent jouster, but the only time I recall seeing him with a sword in hand he got his ass kicked by Brienne. The renowned sword fighters are Jaime, Barristan Selmy, Ned, Gregor, Sandor and it can be assumed Bronn is in that league. Loras is never mentioned alongside those guys.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
Is Loras a skilled swordsman other than the obvious double entendre of his dalliance with Renly? He's known as being an excellent jouster, but the only time I recall seeing him with a sword in hand he got his ass kicked by Brienne. The renowned sword fighters are Jaime, Barristan Selmy, Ned, Gregor, Sandor and it can be assumed Bronn is in that league. Loras is never mentioned alongside those guys.
I think Loras was always said to be a renowned swordsmen. In one seen, two Lannister soldiers were talking about who was the best swordsmen and Loras' name did come up. One then joked "he's been stabbing Renly for years, and he ain't dead", but he was still regarded as good.

Regardless, the number of amazing swordsmen in the realm can be named on one hand, and almost all of them are not available for the trial. It isn't far of a stretch to assume Cersei was going to call Gregor (the only one even remotely available) and, based on literally every piece of dialog Oberyn let come out of his mouth, Oberyn would step forward (even if he wasn't chosen, he would still jump at the chance) to fight the Mountain.
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
7,550
666
126
Right and I brought all of that up a couple of pages back, but to say it was 100% obvious that it would be him, particularly given the fact Tyrion went to the other two very obvious candidates, Jaime and Bronn, first, is absurd. The other two were just as viable for those of us who did not have any further knowledge of the outcome.

You can only say it was 100% obvious because you already knew the outcome.

KT
I disagree. I've only read the 1st 2 books. It was fairly well spelled out in earlier episodes this season. They went to great lengths to show Jamie being horrible with his left hand, Bronn practically disappearing, the Hound discussing Trant with Arya, etc.. Not to mention the repeated discussions with Oberyn about getting revenge on the Mountain. You just had to pay attention and it was all there in front of you.

They can't make you drink it as well ...
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
7,550
666
126
Yeah... and? That would be what the training was supposed to fix. They subsequently showed his skills improving as he trained with Bronn. We didn't know until this episode that the training had been ineffective.
You knew it wasn't working in the last sequence they showed as Bronn took the gold hand and knocked him around with it. He was garbage all along and it was easy to see.
 

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