Well, it just seems to me that the wealthy have done quite their share of ruining America as have the poor, perhaps more so. The economic messes, not to mention foreign entanglements, this country has been in have not been the result of the poor, but the rich.
you have some flaws in your thinking. Just because someone is poor does not mean they are not as intelligent. It also does not mean they are lazy. Nor does it mean they will grow up and be on welfare.
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Interesting reading. Check this one out:Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: meltdown75
hey, i think you missed the part where the OP pre-empted anyone using the Nazi example as sounding "like a high school kid"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law
Seriously, relying on that lame tactic doesn't lend any credibility to an argument and is only used to dig up strong emotions instead of what the discussion really needs- rational thinking and reason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
Eugenics is just the term given for improving the human race by active genetic screening/manipulation. The term "Eugenics" nowadays usually carries with it a negative connotation and therefore most people think it must be "False" or "wrong".
However it is something which is practiced every day, just in less publicized ways (and they're careful to distance themselves from that term even though it's the same thing) . In much the same way that most people avoid breeding with someone with obvious physical deformities, doctors testing pregnant women for signs of downs (they'll abort the fetus if it has it) or Jewish couples being tested for Tay Sachs, Eugenics sought to improve the human race from a genetic standpoint.
We never abandoned the idea, we just quit using a term whose name was spoiled.
Nobody every said that. Just because group x is more likely to do y doesn't necessarily mean that group x always does y or that those that do y are from group x. It only means what was stated.
I've never claimed to be the smartest guy, but seeing most of the responses in this thread helps me understand why I scored above average.
Capt Caveman
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2005
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If all poor people have 'poor genes', how do some of them make it out of poverty, go to college, become successful business people, become leader's of our society, etc?
How about creating more opportunities and provide better education to the poor?
Sounds like the OP's mother should have been neutered.
How about creating more opportunities and provide better education to the poor?
Sounds like the OP's mother should have been neutered.
SagaLore
Elite Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 24,036
- 21
- 81
The poorest of kids can also be taught. Thats why good public education is so important. Its one of the few things I agree with from the democratic party.
Your argument about genetic selection has some validity, but I think you're applying it wrong. Some of the stupidest people are extremely wealthy. Some of the smartest people who are wealthy, did not start out wealthy, but rather lower middle class who had great business sense and ambitions. So this is not a question of socio-economic status, but rather intelligence and/or instinctive personal productivity.
If we give people of unfortunate socio-economic status an incentive to make as many children as possible as a source of income, who is being smart and who is being stupid? I argue that the reproducers are smart because they know how to use the system, and the bureaucratic givers are stupid because they refuse to address it. So what you're saying is that politicians and the majority of the voters should stop reproducing.
True, but the only reason their numbers continually increase over time regardless of conditions is because bleeding hearts thinking that the productive in society need to feed and house those who will not do so for themselves. This removes the natural selection part of genetics and guarantees you will have large populations of people with undesirable traits. The simplest solution is to cut off the welfare flow and let these people either sink or swim. If they are too lazy or stupid to feed the kids they breed then nature will reset the balance.
You can cry all you want and say I am a mean bastard but at the rate things are going someday the government will be unable to sustain its robin hood tactics and this is all going to happen naturally anyway.
91TTZ is the only one I see in this thread that is actually rational while the rest of you are emotional. I love how people always talk about Darwin this and Darwin that but let you apply it to the poor and they get in an upheaval. Wake up. People are animals and deserve no special treatment. Every life is not special, what makes it special is how you live it. If you can't afford to raise kids don't have them. The butthole is a popular destination these days and avoids pregnancy.
Capt Caveman
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2005
- 34,543
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You know nothing about a civilized society then.
What do you plan to do with the one's that can't succeed? Just let them die and let the trash people, scoop them off the streets and throw them in the dumpster? We'll also have higher crime rates, time to build more prisons or start killing them.
- Jun 10, 2004
- 14,600
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Ah, Social Darwinists are still alive and well I see.
As an individual who grew up far below the poverty level for almost half of his life, I find this thread most amusing. While I agree there are unproductive "leeches" in society, I must protest your incomplete understanding of heredity and genetics.
As an individual who grew up far below the poverty level for almost half of his life, I find this thread most amusing. While I agree there are unproductive "leeches" in society, I must protest your incomplete understanding of heredity and genetics.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
- Aug 20, 2000
- 20,577
- 432
- 126
It's a popular sentiment amongst those growing older to consider the present world to be worse than it was in his/her youth. Truth is, people today are smarter, healthier (not to be confused with in shape) and better educated than ever before in human history.
This also ignores the fact that intelligence is an evolutionary survival trait, which is probably about ~50% heritable - accounting for a large amount of how intelligence is determined, but not the entirety. I have little fear for the future on the human race.
Is intelligence inherited or built on experience?
Pop quiz: Why are IQ test scores rising around the globe?
Edit: Forgot to include the second article.
This also ignores the fact that intelligence is an evolutionary survival trait, which is probably about ~50% heritable - accounting for a large amount of how intelligence is determined, but not the entirety. I have little fear for the future on the human race.
Is intelligence inherited or built on experience?
Pop quiz: Why are IQ test scores rising around the globe?
Edit: Forgot to include the second article.
While that doesn't sound appealing what are the alternatives? Force them to work? You can't lawfully do that. Make us subsidize their life? That's not fair to anyone else.
In the end, each individual is responsible for their own life. Their success or failure depends on them.
Leros
Lifer
- Jul 11, 2004
- 21,867
- 7
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Rather than forced work. What if there was some kind of government jobs that were always available. No applicatiions, just walk in and work. They could pay less than minimum wage to make them unappealing.
Cut down welfare to where you can only get it for X number of years. After that, they have to work Y number of hours in the government place to get any aid at all.
I'll agree with this.
It also means that those living in the poorest conditions probably have the worst of both worlds- they more likely inherited genes for lesser ability and in addition their environment will be less than optimal.
That sounds like a good idea, but I also remember hearing about how the work camps that we had during the depression turned out to be a bad thing, even though it increased employment.
Why is it that everybody complains about providing things like welfare to the people the OP is talking about (I'm going to assume that he's talking about the no-good people, because I have met very decent lower-class people) and then gets emotional when he says that they seem to be like rabbits. China (and I think India) made a limit on how many children you can have, but I think 91TTZ isn't quite talking about overpopulation. And maybe he's not talking about something quite as grand as England exporting their criminals to Australia.
I'm not really a misanthrope, but I understand where he's coming from since I remember how high school was like. I don't live near the ghetto, but we pass by a place that sure seems like it on the way to school and their kids came too. Making no effort to even try to do anything about it, many graduated just above failing and I keep reading from the community news and stories from friends over the shootings that happen there from people my age.
I think, OP, whatever solution will strike a nerve to every emotional person out there, just like abortion, despite it being proven that it helped lower the national crime rate and goes under personal freedom (that last one is my opinion). Try to bite your tongue when these people complain about providing them money or them doing them something dishonest, whatever they do. We get a thread about it a few times a month.
But I'm also torn because coming to this country, we're promised that it's all equal opportunity. Even though they aren't quite trying to seize it, maybe one day they will. May take a long time though.
I'm not really a misanthrope, but I understand where he's coming from since I remember how high school was like. I don't live near the ghetto, but we pass by a place that sure seems like it on the way to school and their kids came too. Making no effort to even try to do anything about it, many graduated just above failing and I keep reading from the community news and stories from friends over the shootings that happen there from people my age.
I think, OP, whatever solution will strike a nerve to every emotional person out there, just like abortion, despite it being proven that it helped lower the national crime rate and goes under personal freedom (that last one is my opinion). Try to bite your tongue when these people complain about providing them money or them doing them something dishonest, whatever they do. We get a thread about it a few times a month.
But I'm also torn because coming to this country, we're promised that it's all equal opportunity. Even though they aren't quite trying to seize it, maybe one day they will. May take a long time though.
Capt Caveman
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2005
- 34,543
- 651
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What are the alternatives? Are you this stupid? I thought you had a high IQ.
Like I've already said, create opportunities for people to succeed. Better schools, create job opportunities, better access to health. Yes, you subsidize these efforts as it's part of living in a civilized society that looks out for all of it's people.
You know that there are countries with higher standards of living than the US, right? You do know that they subsidize and create opportunity for their poor, right?
Why don't you cry about how we should abolish prisoners and just kill all of them to save money? Or kill all of the mentally ill or the elderly that need gov't assistance?
How old are you? You sound very naive and ignorant. You know that there individuals that have come out of poverty that have higher IQs than you and have added more to society than you ever will.
You fail at history and science, please do not breed.
videogames101
Diamond Member
- Aug 24, 2005
- 6,783
- 27
- 91
1. Intelligence is passed on by genes.
2. People with lower intelligence have a greater chance of being poor.
3. The more offspring any organism produces increases the number of organism in the population that have their genes.
4 The birthrate of the poor is higher then the birthrate of the rich.
These are true statements, no one here can argue with them.
By looking at those 4 statements, we can conclude that, because poor people are more likely to have low intelligence, and they reproduce more, then they're lower intelligence is transferred unto greater portion of the population.
Those are the facts, simple logic and reasoning. If you disagree with any of that, then I'm not going to waste my time debating anything with you.
Now, as more people with lower intelligence are created, is there anything to be done about it? The answer is no. Unless we want to become communists, this is the way the world works. It happens in every country in the world, and we're no exception. To be so arrogant as to think the human population isn't affected by genetics makes be doubt your belief in evolution at all. (and if you don't believe in evolution, GTFO)
2. People with lower intelligence have a greater chance of being poor.
3. The more offspring any organism produces increases the number of organism in the population that have their genes.
4 The birthrate of the poor is higher then the birthrate of the rich.
These are true statements, no one here can argue with them.
By looking at those 4 statements, we can conclude that, because poor people are more likely to have low intelligence, and they reproduce more, then they're lower intelligence is transferred unto greater portion of the population.
Those are the facts, simple logic and reasoning. If you disagree with any of that, then I'm not going to waste my time debating anything with you.
Now, as more people with lower intelligence are created, is there anything to be done about it? The answer is no. Unless we want to become communists, this is the way the world works. It happens in every country in the world, and we're no exception. To be so arrogant as to think the human population isn't affected by genetics makes be doubt your belief in evolution at all. (and if you don't believe in evolution, GTFO)
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