Flu shot: check.

[Texashiker]

You are splitting hairs regarding the efficacy of vaccines, and I'm pointing out what happens when they don't exist or are ignored.

I never said vaccines are not effective.

I did say, and I will repeat, the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time. On the other hand, naturally produced anti-bodies from exposure can last a lifetime.

Study after study - everything from flu to whooping cough - shows that the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time.

If you want real, lifetime resistance, it can only be obtained through exposure.

 

[ichy]

Survival of the fittest and natural selection - something our modern society does not understand.

Wow, you have no clue what you're talking about. One of the scariest things about the 1918/1919 pandemic was how it was worse among the young and healthy than among the elderly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Influenza#Mortality

Another unusual feature of this pandemic was that it mostly killed young adults, with 99% of pandemic influenza deaths occurring in people under 65, and more than half in young adults 20 to 40 years old.[42] This is unusual, since influenza is normally most deadly to the very young (under age two) and the very old (over age 70)

 

[Fausto]

I never said vaccines are not effective.

I did say, and I will repeat, the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time. On the other hand, naturally produced anti-bodies from exposure can last a lifetime.

Study after study - everything from flu to whooping cough - shows that the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time.

If you want real, lifetime resistance, it can only be obtained through exposure.

To things that can kill you. Brilliant.

 

[ichy]

I never said vaccines are not effective.

I did say, and I will repeat, the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time. On the other hand, naturally produced anti-bodies from exposure can last a lifetime.

Study after study - everything from flu to whooping cough - shows that the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time.

If you want real, lifetime resistance, it can only be obtained through exposure.

It's possible to get a vaccine every year, which means your immune system is exposed to far more viruses than if you didn't get it. I don't know about you, but I have no intention of hanging around sick people and deliberately catching the flu every year in order to boost my immune system.

 

[JTsyo]

You make it sound like we will "always" have a vaccine for whatever comes around. Well, we do not always have a vaccine for everything.

There was an article posted maybe a year ago that talked about the swine flu and the seasonal flu have similar genetics. And that if you had caught seasonal flu, you could have resistance to swine flue. I have been unable to find that article, the closest I could find was the abc.go.com article.

With our modern forms of transportation, a new disease could span the world in a matter of days. I would rather have some kind of natural resistance from previous exposure, then to have nothing.

I would rather catch the flu and have lifelong natural resistance (though it may be limited resistance), then to rely solely on a flu shot later in life.




Seems you do not have an understanding how the immune system works, to be arguing for a healthy adult to take a flu shot.

As for "argue immunology", have you forgotten your history, and how European diseases wiped out the North American Indian?

Just because you get the flu once doesn't mean you'll never get it again. For the same reason that the vaccine is not effective over many reason, you don't have immunity from all flu strains with the antibodies from one flu encounter. You are better off with the vaccine since it offer immunity from a few variants of the flu. Maybe you're confusing the flu with something like Chicken pox.

 

[ShawnD1]

To things that can kill you. Brilliant.

To be fair, this thread is mostly about influenza. Influenza usually doesn't kill people.

If you want real, lifetime resistance, it can only be obtained through exposure.

I'm not doubting this, but I do have a question related to this. Are you going to build up your immune system by intentionally exposing yourself to the flu, or will you try to hide from the flu the way I do?
I don't want fake sickness from the vaccine and I don't want real sickness from the real thing. I'm just going to wash my hands lots and try to avoid touching my eyes and face.

 

[Jeeebus]

Fun times at the Jeeebus household last night.

Mrs. Jeeebs spent a few hours at the local hospital with our 2-year old who was having a reaction to the flu shot he got the day before. Leg was completely puffed up, hard, and with four large red spots around the location of the shot. He got a flu shot last year, so no idea why things were different this time. Sucked.

 

[crashtestdummy]

I feel like those saying "vaccines don't provide as good immunity as getting sick" are really missing an understanding of how the adaptive immune system works.

I suggest everyone that hasn't taken/worked in immunology before to spend 15 minutes understanding how this system works:

http://www.khanacademy.org/video/b-lymphocytes--b-cells?playlist=Biology

This is actually a really good, easy to understand explanation. The take-home message is that the difference between someone who is "immune" and someone who is not is that the immune person has a stockpile of memory B cells. This stockpile will be generated as long as the person is given a sufficient dose of antigen to generate an immune response.

Now, what constitutes an antigen? It can be any part of the pathogen that does not also exist inside the body, but that also exists on the outside of the virus/bacterium. This does not generally include genetic material, which is why you don't need live virus in most vaccines.

 

[Texashiker]

It's possible to get a vaccine every year,

The flu vaccine does not protect against "all" types of flu.

Are you going to build up your immune system by intentionally exposing yourself to the flu, or will you try to hide from the flu the way I do?

I work in a clinic, so I get to walk by sick people almost daily.

So no, I do not hide.

I feel like those saying "vaccines don't provide as good immunity as getting sick" are really missing an understanding of how the adaptive immune system works.

In some cases immunizations provide better protection then exposure - polio, Hep A, Hep B,,,,. The Hep B vaccine is supposed to be something like 99% effective, and provide something like 20 years of protection.

But we are talking about the flu in this thread.

 

[Gibsons]

I never said vaccines are not effective.

I did say, and I will repeat, the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time. On the other hand, naturally produced anti-bodies from exposure can last a lifetime.

Study after study - everything from flu to whooping cough - shows that the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time.

If you want real, lifetime resistance, it can only be obtained through exposure.

You really don't understand immunology.

 

[Texashiker]

You really don't understand immunology.

Please stop posting.

You have no idea what I know and do not know.

 

[Gibsons]

Please stop posting.

You have no idea what I know and do not know.

I read your last quote, and it indicates quite strongly that you don't know immunology. Maybe you should stop posting.

 

[amdhunter]

I have mines scheduled for October 27th.

 

[crashtestdummy]

But we are talking about the flu in this thread.

So am I. What I wrote is applicable to all vaccines. Now, you are right that they sometimes don't pick the right strain (though that is often because the predicted strain never takes off due to the vaccinations), but there is no biological downside to getting exposure to additional strains anyway. You don't weaken your immune system, or "make it lazy" by getting a vaccine. Quite the contrary.

 

[tedrodai]

People exposed to the spanish flu in 1918 still had aggresive antibodies in their blood 60+ years later.

No vaccine is going to give you 60+ years of protection.

Vaccines do not give you lifelong protection like exposure does. Read the above link from sciencedaily.

You're not being careful with what you're reading. Those people had antibodies for the rest of their life for that one specific strain of the flu. They may well have zero protection from strains from recent years. If by some miracle it has mutated back into that same strain from 1918, then sure, they're in good shape.

The reason people suggest you get a flu vaccine every year is because it's a vaccine to a more recent strain of the virus...it continuously mutates. Getting the most recent flu shot can't 100% protect you from getting the flu because you may well get a strain that has mutated enough since that your latest antibodies aren't effective. But you're much, much less likely to get it if you do get vaccinated.

BTW, the antibodies you create from the vaccine are just as good as the antibodies you'll get if you catch the stuff naturally, only by god, you don't spend a week or two sick.

 

[Fausto]

Study after study - everything from flu to whooping cough - shows that the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time.

Most people never get a pertussis booster. People pretty much never get pertussis. In fact, to my knowledge, the most recent outbreak was amongst kids in CA whose idiot parents listened to a former nude model who suddenly became an expert on vaccines on the heels of a study shown to be critically flawed and discarded by all but former nude models with two brain cells to rub together.

...and honestly, even assuming for a moment that your assertions about vaccines are true (which they largely are not), how are we supposed to acheive an immune response? It's like playing kickball on the interstate to sort out the kids with the most advanced reflexes.

 

[crashtestdummy]

I never said vaccines are not effective.

I did say, and I will repeat, the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time. On the other hand, naturally produced anti-bodies from exposure can last a lifetime.

Study after study - everything from flu to whooping cough - shows that the effectiveness of vaccines fades over time.

If you want real, lifetime resistance, it can only be obtained through exposure.

That is absolutely not true! There are vaccines whose effectiveness degrades over time (though most, such as the flu vaccine, don't), but exposure to the live disease does the same thing (or as in tetanus, provides no immunity at all). Please stop saying things that are patently false.

 

[Texashiker]

I read your last quote, and it indicates quite strongly that you don't know immunology. Maybe you should stop posting.

There are certain diseases where immunization is better then exposure. But we are not talking about polio, Hep A, Hep B,,,, here, we are talking about the flu.

Several studies say that exposure to the flu virus results in production of anti-bodies that last a lifetime.

Unless there are underlying conditions, there is no reason for a healthy adult to get a flu vaccine.

If someone works face-to-face with the public, works with the elderly, or has small children at home, then they should get vaccinated.

Now then, what part of that do you disagree with?

There are vaccines whose effectiveness degrades over time (though most, such as the flu vaccine, don't),

The flu vaccine is only effective for a few months, "maybe" a year at the very best.


http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/fluvaccine.htm

Why do I need to get vaccinated against the flu every year?

The second reason that annual vaccination is recommended is that a person’s immune protection from vaccination declines over time and annual vaccination is needed for optimal protection.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Several studies say that exposure to the flu virus results in production of anti-bodies that last a lifetime.

As does the flu vaccine. In both cases, though, the virus mutates fast enough that your immunity one year won't necessarily protect you the next year, in either case.

Unless there are underlying conditions, there is no reason for a healthy adult to get a flu vaccine.

Wrong again! The really nasty flu (bird flu, H1N1, etc) arre actually far more dangerous to people with healthy immune systems than the young and elderly. This is because you become overwhelmed with your own immune response. The vaccine allows your body to eliminate the infection before it ever has a chance to cause such a strong systemic reaction.

 

[Texashiker]

As does the flu vaccine.

I guess you missed the above link to the CDC that says the flu vaccine declines over time?

I also guess you missed the part in this thread that talks about viruses that are genetically similar can cause an immune reaction?

 

[Gibsons]

That is absolutely not true! There are vaccines whose effectiveness degrades over time (though most, such as the flu vaccine, don't), but exposure to the live disease does the same thing (or as in tetanus, provides no immunity at all). Please stop saying things that are patently false.

This. All immunity fades over time, just a fact of life. Some diseases are generally attributed to providing lifelong protection to re-infection (through immune memory), but it's never universally true.

 

[crashtestdummy]

The flu vaccine is only effective for a few months, "maybe" a year at the very best.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/fluvaccine.htm

Keep reading:

The decline in protection against the flu that occurs after vaccination or after flu infection may be influenced by several factors, including a person’s age, the antigen used in the vaccine, and the person’s health situation (for example, chronic health conditions that weaken the immune system may have an impact).

These same factors will cause fading immunity to exposure to the live virus as well, and is not specific to vaccinations. Nowhere does it state that this trend is different than in exposure to live virus.

 

[tedrodai]

Fun times at the Jeeebus household last night.

Mrs. Jeeebs spent a few hours at the local hospital with our 2-year old who was having a reaction to the flu shot he got the day before. Leg was completely puffed up, hard, and with four large red spots around the location of the shot. He got a flu shot last year, so no idea why things were different this time. Sucked.

Sorry to hear that. It might be that he's allergic...either to some part of the solution the new vaccine was suspended in or the virus itself. Also, allergies sometimes to not manifest with the 1st exposure, but can with subsequent exposures.

edit: My wife is actually allergic to the tetanus vaccine solution, and to the PPD test (along with plent of other allergies lol)

 

[Fausto]

Keep reading:

These same factors will cause fading immunity to exposure to the live virus as well, and is not specific to vaccinations. Nowhere does it state that this trend is different than in exposure to live virus.

You stop with your reasoning and powers of deduction! You stop it right now, young man!

 

[AMDZen]

Is this a credit card thread? Because all I see is Texasdude arguing again