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Exclusive: First charges filed in Mueller investigation

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Commodus said:
What's hilarious is that Roger Stone got himself banned from Twitter for threatening CNN journalists over "fake news." Huh, turns out that CNN deals in these things called "facts," while everyone associated with the Trump camp is always lying.
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The point is to claim that the news media is lying all the time. Nobody cares if Stone or Trump turns out to be wrong because everyone knows they are liars anyway. Eventually one of the 100 times they call CNN liars it will turn out CNN really was wrong, at which point Trump and Stone declare vindication and say they were right about CNN all along. The point is to get people to a place where they can’t trust anyone or anything.
 
Charging Manafort is a no-brainer regardless of a larger conspiracy. I imagine the actual charge at this time indicates knowledge of something greater, and Mueller hopes to turn him for some other purpose.
 
fskimospy said:
The point is to claim that the news media is lying all the time. Nobody cares if Stone or Trump turns out to be wrong because everyone knows they are liars anyway. Eventually one of the 100 times they call CNN liars it will turn out CNN really was wrong, at which point Trump and Stone declare vindication and say they were right about CNN all along. The point is to get people to a place where they can’t trust anyone or anything.
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It is amusing though that Stone got himself banned right before this so he can't properly explode.

Manafort was a likely big fish but I see they have Rick Gates too so they can both be questioned for consistency. This is jail time we're looking at, probably substantial when Mueller is through, potentially treason although that's not a likely charge.

This is where things get interesting because Trump can't seem to help himself and regardless of his actions during the campaign he seems to have a Nixonian level of paranoia which could land him in obstruction trouble. It's not hard to imagine him tweeting that Manafort and Gates should "Keep quiet! FAKE HILLARY is loser. EVERYONE KNOWS IT STAY STRONG"

Mueller would love to see this sort of thing.
 
Gates is the interesting one here. Gives Mueller two people to potentially flip and play off each other in questioning.

Also makes me wonder what the hell he's got on Gates since his name hasn't really come up at all during all of this. Guess we'll find out later today.
 
12 count indictment for Manafort/Gates:

i7Z3JK8.jpg
 
TraumaRN said:
Gates is the interesting one here. Gives Mueller two people to potentially flip and play off each other in questioning.

Also makes me wonder what the hell he's got on Gates since his name hasn't really come up at all during all of this. Guess we'll find out later today.
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The charges are entirely based on tax fraud and I've read that Gates has a few million illegally stashed.
 
For those who want to see the indictment directly: the Justice Department has it.

Basically: Manafort hid that he was a foreign operator for the pro-Russia Ukrainian government and used elaborate schemes (plus outright lies) to avoid reporting his income from those sources to US authorities.

It's not directly accusing him of colluding with Russia during the Trump campaign (there are no mentions of it), but I think that just feeds into the theory that his indictment is being used as a playing card to get more details central to the investigation. Basically, if Manafort wants to see life outside of prison before he's old, he'll have to talk.
 
fskimospy said:
This post did not age well. Any rethinking of your theory now that Trump’s campaign manager has been indicted?
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Thankfully yes. I think Trump may be in some trouble at this point.


I'm somewhat surprised he is moving this quickly but that's good for the country. Now the question is: Will trump try to fire him?
 
UNCjigga said:
LOL, charged with "conspiracy against the United States"? No shit Mueller, he helped elect Donald Trump!
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Yeah, that one stuck out to me. That sounds..uh...serious. Any idea what the sentence is for that conviction sticking?
 
vi edit said:
Yeah, that one stuck out to me. That sounds..uh...serious. Any idea what the sentence is for that conviction sticking?
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I was curious about that as well, but it doesn't seem as serious as it sounds

18 U.S. Code § 371 - Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
  • If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371

Five years in prison is no joke, but from the name I was thinking it would be even worse.
 
Oh wow, just heard speculation on NBC that Mueller is very interested in how this $75m from Ukraine (pro-Russia at the time) was spent on lobbying efforts before and during his time as campaign chairman. Remember how the RNC suddenly changed their platform at the convention? So Mueller may be looking into certain members of Congress who took money from Manafort.
 
Speaking of media guess what's breaking on the good ol' Fox News chyron?

Trump to keep home mortgage deduction.

Can they be more in the water carrying business?? Guess WH hasn't told them what to say yet.
 
khon said:
I was curious about that as well, but it doesn't seem as serious as it sounds

18 U.S. Code § 371 - Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
  • If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371

Five years in prison is no joke, but from the name I was thinking it would be even worse.
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That's one charge. So far there are 11 more and there may be additional charges, effectively a life sentence.
 
The media has noted that Trump and Sessions are scheduled to have lunch together today at the WH.

That should be fun.
 
Hayabusa Rider said:
That's one charge. So far there are 11 more and there may be additional charges, effectively a life sentence.
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Criminal law isn't my forte but isn't it accurate that under conspiracy charges other people who might not have been directly involved can face the tougher penalties of higher up figures? That would be a hell of a crow bar to pry people's lips open if so.
 
K1052 said:
The media has noted that Trump and Sessions are scheduled to have lunch together today at the WH.

That should be fun.
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My money is on Trump screaming at Sessions once again about his recusal, and perhaps discussing how Sessions might derail the investigation and firing Mueller. Although it would be ridiculously bad optics to fire Mueller for any reason doing so when it's over tax fraud is way worse still. I don't think Sessions would do it and Rosenstein would quit first and another Saturday Night Massacre would be had all over again and just over white collar crime. Might see Vietnam magnitude protests in DC.
 
UNCjigga said:
Oh wow, just heard speculation on NBC that Mueller is very interested in how this $75m from Ukraine (pro-Russia at the time) was spent on lobbying efforts before and during his time as campaign chairman. Remember how the RNC suddenly changed their platform at the convention? So Mueller may be looking into certain members of Congress who took money from Manafort.
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If you read the actual indictment under that charge it specifically says Gates + Manafort "together with others conspired to..."

So yeah this is the first shot across the bow. Remember Watergate ended up having 50+ people indicted on charges.
 
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