Doctors: Obamacare Is A Disaster For America

[PingviN]

In Europe we're happy with the costs, less excited about the quality.

In the states you seem unhappy with the costs, but excited about the quality.

Guess you can't have both :/

 

[xj0hnx]

You need to travel more. Many of those countries smoke and drink a LOT more than the US.
But those countries don't have tens of millions of uninsured not getting the care they need. And they don't have insured who are dropped due to pre-existing conditions, and so on. They treat health coverage as an essential human need, not as a financial instrument.

Even with their smoking and drinking they lead much healthier lives, tend to not be as stagnant, or as stressed. Alcohol in reasonable quantities is not bad for you, and regardless of your charts, those that have poor lifestyles still die earlier than others.

EU has more citizens than US, and few, if any uninsured.

As Cybrsage said the EU is not a country with a single payer system, it's a lot of countries with a lot of different systems.

Yet they have unversal coverage...

Some of which have been gravitating towards a more private system, because as a couple of the poster from there have pointed out, the system isn't all that great. "Isn't it great Hanz, you've got free medical care?", "Oh yea, it's awesome, I only had to wait two year for MRI." When my wife pulled her shoulder out of it's socket around midnight, the hospital was debating on telling her to wait until morning because there were no doctors on staff at night, but finally got a hold of someone, and follow ups had to be done in a town an hour and a half away, such awesome care.

 

[Ausm]

americans make different lifestyle choices, culture differences etc.

but beyond that, if your stance is results, then i see you agree with me in post #2. quality will have to suffer to lower costs and cover everyone. then, some 'other' country will invest in HC R&D and leave the US behind. soon enough it will be us looking like were in the 1950's.

LMAO

10/10 for deflection.

 

[xj0hnx]

LMAO

10/10 for deflection.

Deflection? It's completely true. America is full of lazy slobs, that eat terrible food, and don't exercise. We have a microwave mentality, give me convenience or give me death is just the name of a great album, it's become the American anthem. Hell, driving around on Christmas day it was saddening to see that the only places open were Weinerschnitzel, and Burger King, and they were fucking packed.

 

[Ausm]

Deflection? It's completely true. America is full of lazy slobs, that eat terrible food, and don't exercise. We have a microwave mentality, give me convenience or give me death is just the name of a great album, it's become the American anthem. Hell, driving around on Christmas day it was saddening to see that the only places open were Weinerschnitzel, and Burger King, and they were fucking packed.

So that's why we are honored to pay the most for Healthcare with the least amount of output then any other civilized Country?

 

[xj0hnx]

So that's why we are honored to pay the most for Healthcare with the least amount of output then any other civilized Country?

It sure doesn't help. And I believe that was in response to our countries life expectancy versus other countries, not the cost of health care.

 

[tydas]

Well, if they don't like it then why don't they go to another country? Oh, yes thats right no other country pays doctors as much as the US...

 

[umbrella39]

Like forbes isn't a biased source, after all Stevy boy did run for pres as a repub at one time.

It doesn't help when the like of Canadian Sally Pipes, head of the Pacific Research Institute *think tank*, wrote the OP/ED piece. Not like she has any long standing agenda against UHC.

 

[shadow9d9]

In Europe we're happy with the costs, less excited about the quality.

In the states you seem unhappy with the costs, but excited about the quality.

Guess you can't have both :/

They are thrilled with the quality as long as they don't get sick, don't see the costs of their healthcare since employer covers it, and doesn't get refused due to pre-existing conditions.

 

[TheVrolok]

Uhh... yeah they are. Doctors are the only people who can write prescriptions. If I need my medication refilled, I see a doctor.

The worst are the doctors who ask a bunch of stupid questions and waste my time. I've been taking this medication for 5 years and you expect it to suddenly stop working? Just give me the damn pills so I can leave.
My gf got fucked around for an hour because of a horrible shitty doctor. She booked an appointment with a doctor who listed his interest as "psychiatric disorders" (depression, ADHD, etc) and he did fuck all. He just wanted to talk. The only reason she didn't punch him in the balls (like she should have) is because she's still young.

When I turn 60 and some douchebag doctor wants to talk about my cancer instead of fixing it, I'm going to stab that fucker in the throat.

lol, I almost think this is just trolling. Your perceptions of what medicine should be, or how it should be practiced are so skewed it's frankly disturbing. To be honest, you sound like the kind of patient I would discharge from my practice and never see again.

 

[senseamp]

As Cybrsage said the EU is not a country with a single payer system, it's a lot of countries with a lot of different systems.

All of them either single payer or insurance mandate. All of them spending less and getting better results.

 

[chucky2]

lol, I almost think this is just trolling. Your perceptions of what medicine should be, or how it should be practiced are so skewed it's frankly disturbing. To be honest, you sound like the kind of patient I would discharge from my practice and never see again.

I don't know his situation, but in both my parents cases, bad doctors (defy all logic - in the patients interest that is - type of stuff) nearly ended up killing them both.

Ambivalent, and just straight out bad, doctors can't be discounted...they're out there...

 

[TheVrolok]

I don't know his situation, but in both my parents cases, bad doctors (defy all logic - in the patients interest that is - type of stuff) nearly ended up killing them both.

Ambivalent, and just straight out bad, doctors can't be discounted...they're out there...

I would agree, ambivalent and "straight out bad" doctors exist, and they are bad. However, what the poster I quoted is describing is an absolutely terrible physician and he's lauding him, or he's condemning what sounds to be a good physician.

 

[sportage]

As long as healthcare is treated as business for profit thing, we are all doomed.
How much of your income are you willing to spend for healthcare for your family?
Triple that figure, and that will still not be nears enough to satisfy the dragon.
Doctors should not be treated as rock stars. And healthcare should not make a profit.
Period!

 

[chucky2]

I would agree, ambivalent and "straight out bad" doctors exist, and they are bad. However, what the poster I quoted is describing is an absolutely terrible physician and he's lauding him, or he's condemning what sounds to be a good physician.

If you run your own practice, what is your position on what is needed to get healthcare costs of expensive proceedures/tests down?

I'll give you an example for just me:

Last year I had lithotripy proceedure performed on a kidney stone in my left ureter...lower, just above my beltline, and they did do a stent. Just the Dr.'s portion, in a facility that has long since been paid off (the building is in good shape but old, the interior is in good shape modern but not high end, etc.) with the equipment somewhat old (the nurse referred to it non-jokingly as 'this old thing'), was $16k.

We were in there one hour in the room. The xray, other folks, they were all split out on the bill...just the urologists part was $16k. All at a site that obviously isn't needing to be paid off, or equipment that is being paid off.

How do we get that cost down, so when others that don't have the insurance that I've got need a lithotripsy, they don't dope them up and say, Drink lots of water, 'try and relax', push! Bye!

Chuck

 

[xj0hnx]

All of them either single payer or insurance mandate. All of them spending less and getting better results.

You really can't comprehend the problem comparing MUCH smaller countries and their health care systems to our can you?

If you run your own practice, what is your position on what is needed to get healthcare costs of expensive proceedures/tests down?

I'll give you an example for just me:

Last year I had lithotripy proceedure performed on a kidney stone in my left ureter...lower, just above my beltline, and they did do a stent. Just the Dr.'s portion, in a facility that has long since been paid off (the building is in good shape but old, the interior is in good shape modern but not high end, etc.) with the equipment somewhat old (the nurse referred to it non-jokingly as 'this old thing'), was $16k.

We were in there one hour in the room. The xray, other folks, they were all split out on the bill...just the urologists part was $16k. All at a site that obviously isn't needing to be paid off, or equipment that is being paid off.

How do we get that cost down, so when others that don't have the insurance that I've got need a lithotripsy, they don't dope them up and say, Drink lots of water, 'try and relax', push! Bye!

Chuck

Overhead. Our business cost about $2,000 a day for us to come in and turn on the lights. Just because it's an old building doesn't mean they aren't paying someone for it's use, and there's always taxes, insurance, salaries, electricity for the building, and equipment, water, probably cable/internet, etc ...

 

[etrigan420]

Overhead.

That could quite possibly be the funniest thing I've read all week.

The fact that you *believe* it, could be the saddest thing I've read all week...

 

[xj0hnx]

That could quite possibly be the funniest thing I've read all week.

The fact that you *believe* it, could be the saddest thing I've read all week...

The fact that you think it has nothing to do with it is probably the saddest thing I've read in my life, and shows how clueless you are, and that you don't know what the word means.

 

[senseamp]

You really can't comprehend the problem comparing MUCH smaller countries and their health care systems to our can you?

I don't see a reason a solution won't scale. We have similar economic metrics per capita.

 

[Siddhartha]

American Medical Association's was vehemently opposed to Medicare before it was enacted. Now they are opposed to any cuts to Medicare. These doctors are only looking out for themselves. More is never enough.

Yeah, pretty much similar reactions all around to Medicare that we are seeing towards the current healt care legislation.

 

[ShawnD1]

lol, I almost think this is just trolling. Your perceptions of what medicine should be, or how it should be practiced are so skewed it's frankly disturbing. To be honest, you sound like the kind of patient I would discharge from my practice and never see again.

In other words you're not a real doctor. Real doctors follow the medical model of the brain, which has been proven correct every time it has been tested. A good doctor understand the medical model. When I'm on a medication that works, a good doctor insist I keep taking the medication because it works. A bad doctor (you) insists on changing it. Sure this medication you've been taking for 5 years works perfectly and fixes everything that is wrong with you, but let's see what happens if you stop taking it and try to stimulate your hypothalamus by talking about it, hurpadurp.
I've seen quack doctors like you before and they were all useless. They think things like thyroxine and testosterone can be increased by talking about problems. They believe in magic crystals and psychic healing. People like you are worse than chiropractors because chiropractors actually help from time to time.

edit
It's entirely possible you have no idea what the medical model is, so I'll try to explain it as best I can. The medical model states that fixing a brain is as simple as fixing a car. If someone's brain has memory problems and dementia caused by a lack of acetylcholine, the medical model says you should increase the level of acetylcholine so the brain can work properly. It's just like filling a car with gas. The medical model also says low dopamine should be treated with dopamine drugs, low serotonin treated with serotonin drugs, diabetes treated with insulin, lack of blood treated with blood transfusions, etc.

The alternative to the medical model is called the Bullshit Model and it's based on absolutely nothing. If a person has old age dementia, the Bullshit Model says you should talk about it and not fix it. If someone has extreme attention problems and they can't learn no matter how hard they try, the Bullshit Model says they should just accept that they are retarded and become a dancer instead (people actually say this). If someone has diabetes, the Bullshit Model of the brain states that their wildly unstable mood should be treated by blaming their parents and talking about how they were abused as children and how these memories are the cause of diabetes.
People following the Bullshit Model also tend to believe that autism is not a "disorder" but merely a personality type. People following the Bullshit Model tend to be bad parents and even worse doctors because they blame the person who is sick. Your blood sugar is low? Well suck it up princess. Raise that blood sugar. Your arm hurts? Don't be a pussy, just stop hurting. Your vision turns blurry when exposed to bright lights? Suck it up and stop having blurry vision.

 

[shira]

If you're spending money on a PhD program you're doing it wrong. Most PhD programs are "free" in that tuition is fully paid for by scholarship - you are, of course, doing a shitload of research for the university and TAing classes. You pay for it by the sweat of your brow, but not in tuition dollars. PhD debt is significantly smaller than MD debt. As far as your last statement, PhD's do not have the responsibility that MD's do (patient's lives and well being), there should also be some financial incentive to shoulder that burden.

I stand corrected on this one - you're correct, PhD candidates in the U.S. by and large get their post-graduate tuitions paid for by their universities, and they also get stipends that cover their cost of living.

However, I checked on the cost of medical school, and your $250,000 was off. According to this article, the average indebtedness of medical-school graduates if $160,000.

http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

Now think about that: The average general-practice physician in America earns about $168,000 (2009 figure). The average salary of someone with a PhD in America is about $91,000 (2007 figure was 86,000, which I've adjusted for two years of inflation). So your argument amounts to the fact that 6 years of education (4 years of medical school plus 2 years of internship for a general-practice physician) + $160,000 of indebtedness is worth $77,000 more per year (or $3+ million for a 35+ year career) than 5 years of education (roughly the amount of post-graduate time required to earn a PhD) and no indebtedness. Or to put this another way, 1 extra year of school and $160,000 of additional debit is worth $3 million?

I don't buy it.

Edit: I didn't respond to your "responsibility" argument. How can you even begin to put a dollar figure on "responsibility?" All physicians are covered by malpractice insurance, so any financial risk incurred by this extra "responsibility" is already covered. So what you you left with, a psychological feeling? Is that what your argument is? Frankly, I don't think you want to go there. If you're like a typical conservative - who argues that "pain and suffering" should NOT be included in jury awards for malpractice - then arguing that "responsibility" is worth millions of dollars of extra salary is a rather inconsistent position to assume.

 

[chucky2]

'Responsibility' means you're getting paged at 1AM, 1:15AM, 1:53AM, 2:40AM, 3:34AM, and so on, while the Ph.D. is snoring and dreaming about how awesome it sounds when someone actually refers to them as "Dr.". 'Responsibility' means that when the Dr. makes a mistake, someone is maybe injured or dies, the Ph.D. makes a mistake and no one notices because 80% of Ph.D.'s are as dumb as their BA brethern but just took the extra time to practice their "thinking" skills instead of going to get a real job.

I'll go with TheVrolok on the 'Responsibility' thing...

 

[shira]

'Responsibility' means you're getting paged at 1AM, 1:15AM, 1:53AM, 2:40AM, 3:34AM, and so on, while the Ph.D. is snoring and dreaming about how awesome it sounds when someone actually refers to them as "Dr.". 'Responsibility' means that when the Dr. makes a mistake, someone is maybe injured or dies, the Ph.D. makes a mistake and no one notices because 80% of Ph.D.'s are as dumb as their BA brethern but just took the extra time to practice their "thinking" skills instead of going to get a real job.

I'll go with TheVrolok on the 'Responsibility' thing...

The fact that someone may die if a wrong decision is made doesn't warrant a huge salary. If that were the case, then air traffic controllers should earn millions, not the typical $85,000 they actually earn.

And the vast majority of physicians very rarely make life and death decisions. I cited that typical salary of general practitioners, who do almost nothing in the way of "life and death." Specialists in high-risk areas are paid a lot more.

As to those late-night phone calls, for physicians working for hospitals, the hours are quite regular. For physicians working in group practice, usually one physician is "on call." I personally know many software engineers for public-facing companies - they're "on call" if anything really bad happens that might mess up the user interface. Do you think the fact that they might be called in at 3 AM to fix a problem means they deserve huge salaries?

Almost none of the physicians I know - and I know many - would characterized their work as "high pressure." Almost none of them would say they feel a heavy burden of responsibility.

And none of the points you make about U.S. physicians is any different for physicians in other first-world countries. Yet the average salaries of U.S. physicians are at least double those of physicians in other first-world countries. How do you justify that vast disparity?

Sorry, but the salaries of U.S. physicians are hugely inflated.

 

[CWRMadcat]

I stand corrected on this one - you're correct, PhD candidates in the U.S. by and large get their post-graduate tuitions paid for by their universities, and they also get stipends that cover their cost of living.

However, I checked on the cost of medical school, and your $250,000 was off. According to this article, the average indebtedness of medical-school graduates if $160,000.

http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm

Now think about that: The average general-practice physician in America earns about $168,000 (2009 figure). The average salary of someone with a PhD in America is about $91,000 (2007 figure was 86,000, which I've adjusted for two years of inflation). So your argument amounts to the fact that 6 years of education (4 years of medical school plus 2 years of internship for a general-practice physician) + $160,000 of indebtedness is worth $77,000 more per year (or $3+ million for a 35+ year career) than 5 years of education (roughly the amount of post-graduate time required to earn a PhD) and no indebtedness. Or to put this another way, 1 extra year of school and $160,000 of additional debit is worth $3 million?

I don't buy it.

No he's right. The cost of medical school is easily $250,000. It can go higher than that if it's a private school and you end up in a high cost of living area. Average indebtedness is a number that can be skewed based on scholarships and personal resources.

Also, your Ph.D salary number may have a lot of noise in it. Lumping all Ph.D salaries together isn't particularly relevant. I'd be much more interested in finding out the average salaries for Ph.D's in STEM fields, or even Economics. I'd imagine that certain Ph.D degrees are quite lucrative.