Doctors: Obamacare Is A Disaster For America

[senseamp]

yes, if you're an all-star, you would command an all-star compensation package. would obamacare put a 'cap' on how much a doctor can earn? i doubt it, its all what individuals/ins companies are willing to pay. check out post #39.

So we are to believe that some so called "all-stars" will immigrate to France or Germany, which have an insurance mandate, or UK which has nationalized medicine, to get paid 30% less and be taxed 30% more, in order to escape the horrors of Obama-care. And we are to believe that people with this level of intelligence deserve an "all-star compensation package." Anything else we need to believe in order to accept your premise? Santa Claus? Trickle down Economics? Unicorns?

 

[Spikesoldier]

Good luck finding one that wants to pay twice as much to get worse care.

So you believe that the best doctors will give the worst care? Or do you believe that the research, development, and innovation comes at a different price than budget, antiquated HC?

I will answer your questions when you answer the one I asked first:

Now your side of the promise.

I've graciously answered your question through your narrow goal posts. Now, for your side of the bargain as you've promised.

 

[BoberFett]

Doctors are just as retarded as politicians. It takes literally years to get them to treat anything. My girlfriend can't get ADHD medication even though she obviously has attention and memory problems. Doctors also refused to give prescription pain killers to my dad after a failed root canal so he could at least tolerate the pain for a couple days when the root canal could be fixed and all of the nerves removed. As a result, he had to get that tooth pulled out because the pain was unbearable. Fucking doctors are scum.

Aren't you from Canada?

Does this mean that socialized medicine sucks?

 

[senseamp]

I've graciously answered your question through your narrow goal posts. Now, for your side of the bargain as you've promised.

So you believe that the best doctors will give the worst care?

Or do you believe that the research, development, and innovation comes at a different price than budget, antiquated HC?

If your R&D and innovation is producing worse outcomes while costing 2x as much, then it's misdirected and overpriced. I am paying for health outcomes, not innovation and R&D.

 

[davmat787]

They cannot refuse those patients because they would collapse without Medicare funds. If you think that seniors would be able to pay out of pocket for coverage that Medicare provides, you are living on another planet.
As far as overcharging, it has more to do with our private insurance industry, which tells practitioners to pound sand and take pennies for a dollar in reimbursements. If you are going to get paid 25 cents on a dollar, you are going to charge 4 times as much.

AppleOfSodom is correct, I know of many practices that don't accept Medicare and are doing just fine. They sign what is called a Medicare Opt Out form. My current family doctor of 10+ years is an example of this, and I know of many others. It is not uncommon by any means, although they seem to be the smaller practices that do this.

 

[Spikesoldier]

If your R&D and innovation is producing worse outcomes while costing 2x as much, then it's misdirected and overpriced. I am paying for health outcomes, not innovation and R&D.

americans make different lifestyle choices, culture differences etc.

but beyond that, if your stance is results, then i see you agree with me in post #2. quality will have to suffer to lower costs and cover everyone. then, some 'other' country will invest in HC R&D and leave the US behind. soon enough it will be us looking like were in the 1950's.

 

[epidemis]

I live in the socialist utopia of Denmark and I'm generally critical of Obamacare. Here we have waiting lists for cancer patients, people lying in halls (granted that may happen elsewhere as well), no private rooms, extremely rationed time with doctors (new one everyday as well, don't know if that's normal in other countries), unitelligible foreigners because they couldn't find enough qualified here. In addition, the most problematic thing is how many people run to the doctor for anything, pushing up the waiting lists for people with real issues. I so had to wait 2 years to get admitted to a physiactric center, in which period I suffered some irreversible damage.
Only got experience with the danish health care system, but if I was paying for it directly I would feel entitled to better care, however I only pay indirectly, so people does not feel obligated to give their best.

 

[ShawnD1]

In addition, the most problematic thing is how many people run to the doctor for anything, pushing up the waiting lists for people with real issues.

This! My retarded neighbours did that. They would see a doctor any time someone burps or farts. That shit would stop immediately if the first $20 was out of pocket.

I so had to wait 2 years to get admitted to a physiactric center, in which period I suffered some irreversible damage.

Canada is like that too. I am taking brain medication but I've never talked to a psychiatrist before. It's all guess work because I need to make up a fake story just to convince a doctor to give me medication that I need to hold a job. One doctor actually told me to drink coffee to deal with my tiredness that never goes away; that dipshit should be thrown in a gas chamber for saying something that retarded. I'm currently on a waiting list to talk to a psychiatrist and get his expert opinion on which specific medications I should be taking. I've been on a waiting list since October and my appointment is in March. That's like half a year.

My gf is also on a waiting list to be tested for a learning disability. The waiting list is 2 YEARS.

All this bullshit would stop immediately if all drugs were OTC. I know for a fact that ADHD medication would fix almost every problem I have, but I can't get that because I don't have a learning disorder. My gf does have a learning disorder but nobody believes her; doctors straight up said that she can't get help for a learning disorder until after she starts failing classes. She's really good at memorizing things without actually learning anything, so she never fails, and this problem will never be solved.

I'm starting to think that people who push for drugs requiring prescriptions simply hate humans. It's the only explanation. In socialist countries, requiring a prescription ruins it for everyone. In USA, needing a prescription means that poor people will likely NEVER get treatment. Even if the drug is $5, you still need to pay $100 every time you see a doctor and that's required every 3 months.

 

[Dulanic]

One of the most bias articles I have seen. Healthcare has been rising for over a decade and actually is rising slower than it has all decade currently also.

STFU until you have PROOF that obamacare causes an increase in cost higher than the usual inflation rate. These stupid articles are fucking stupid when they go ohhh obamacare, obamacare, obamacare, obamacare obamacare obamacare obamacare obamacare OMG it is causing healthcare to go up up up... yet the healthcare inflation rate is the lowest it has been in a decade.

 

[senseamp]

AppleOfSodom is correct, I know of many practices that don't accept Medicare and are doing just fine. They sign what is called a Medicare Opt Out form. My current family doctor of 10+ years is an example of this, and I know of many others. It is not uncommon by any means, although they seem to be the smaller practices that do this.

So what? Doesn't mean that they would be better off without Medicare, even if they don't take Medicare patients themselves. Medicare provides a price floor for them.

 

[Balt]

Doctors are just as human as the rest of us. They won't support anything that might threaten their very well-paying jobs.

If we're being honest, though, we know that medical costs in this country cannot continue to rise at the pace that they currently are (regardless of Obamacare). The system simply cannot sustain itself.

I have no idea what the answer to that problem is, but odds are it's going to hurt every doctor's wallet in some way. I wouldn't anticipate that there will be fewer people who actually want to be doctors, though. They will still be one of the highest paying and most prestigious professions. Law school is expensive and a JD doesn't get you the kind of money that it used to.

 

[senseamp]

americans make different lifestyle choices, culture differences etc.

but beyond that, if your stance is results, then i see you agree with me in post #2. quality will have to suffer to lower costs and cover everyone. then, some 'other' country will invest in HC R&D and leave the US behind. soon enough it will be us looking like were in the 1950's.

How did you get that from this from my post
In case you can't read simple charts, quality of results as measured by life expectancy is better in countries that have lower costs and cover everyone.

 

[Throckmorton]

So "doctors" are mad because there will be too many patients?

How about the AMA stops artificially limiting the number of doctors then?

 

[abj13]

So "doctors" are mad because there will be too many patients?

How about the AMA stops artificially limiting the number of doctors then?

Yawn. The AMA isn't involved in deciding the influx of physicians. In fact, its a dying organization that represents a surprisingly low number of physicians today. Everybody knows its name... except it really only consists of ~20-30% of all US physicians (and that number may be high because medical students and residents only sign up for initial benefits they get).

The problem, as most people who actually work in the pipeline of teaching future physicians is that too many graduating medical students are specializing not in primary care (family medicine, pediatrics, internal medicine), but a high number are entering other subspecialities (ENT, Dermatology...) where the demand isn't the same. Why? Reimbursement. The "shortage" of physicians is fueled by the fact that the demand of the "in-need" specialities is not met by the supply of medical students. Why should someone invest in 11+ years of training (college, medical school, residency), $200,000 of debt, only to make $100,000-150,000 working long busy hours when they can make $400,000 being a dermatologist with a cush lifestyle?

And then you add to it the other TRUE limiting factor in physician education. Its not medical school, its not the number of people being admitted. Its residency, the next level of training. Who pays for residency? I'll let other's think about that for a second...

 

[DAGTA]

I know of plenty of practices that won't accept medicare patients. They just don't pay well at all.

They oppose medicare cuts because some practices and hospitals cannot refuse these patients. They are being forced on them, so of course they don't funding cut. I don't want someone to force me to eat gruel for every meal, but if that were my only choice I wouldn't want them to reduce my serving size.

I work in the Medical industry. Want to know another way Medicare is subsidized? Take the pricing for a test (such as a lab or x-ray.) It is common practice to take the Medicare allowable amount (what Medicare will pay) and multiply that by four or five times to get pricing for better insurance/private pay. So if Medicare will allow $200 for a CT scan, then the hospital should be charging $800-$1000 for it. Write off what Medicare won't pay and subsidize the costs by charging everyone else more.

This. I know doctors evaluating plans to switch to cash-only practices because medicare is such a raw deal.

 

[bfdd]

Right, exactly. Everyone complains in order to get what they want.

not all of us are so petty.

 

[davmat787]

So what? Doesn't mean that they would be better off without Medicare, even if they don't take Medicare patients themselves. Medicare provides a price floor for them.

So? You stated that doctors can't not see medicare patients. Apple disagreed, I thought I would provide another POV to break the tie. Calm down.

I was merely providing another data point, not implying any meaning behind it. However, the fact that many doctors do choose to opt out of medicare DOES provide some meaning. They have done a cost/benefit analysis and determined that their practice is better off not accepting medicare. My doctor that I mentioned has a private practice, he is the only doctor there. Why should he be forced to take medicare patients, losing money in the process, if he is able to provide a service legally otherwise? He is an awesome doctor, he even had me come to his house once when he was out sick and could not make it in, and I had to get a scrip filled. He is like 80 years old, and from the old school.

His decision to opt out of medicare patients does not hurt those on medicare, there are plenty of hospitals and practices that do accept with very short wait times.

 

[TheVrolok]

Usually it's the other way around. People don't want "good" doctors. They want friendly doctors. The best doctor I've ever seen was a bit of a pill pusher; he gave me over a year supply of my medication whereas every other doctor would only give 3 months worth. My parents hate that doctor because he's "cold" or whatever. He doesn't ask about your feelings or how your cat is doing. I said I wanted my prescription refilled, he gave me a new prescription, he didn't ask how I was feeling, and that was the end of it. Straight and to the point.

The most successful doctor is the one who sucks at his job but cries with you as you slowly die.

Sounds like a terrible doctor. A physician is not a pharmacy.

 

[senseamp]

So? You stated that doctors can't not see medicare patients.

That's not what I said though. I said in response to Apple of Sodom that the reason some doctors cannot refuse Medicare is not because it's being forced on them, but because their businesses would collapse if there was no Medicare funding. I never said that every doctor must see medicare patients.

 

[DAGTA]

but because their businesses would collapse if there was no Medicare funding

Who are these doctors? The doctors I know are losing money on a per-visit basis with their Medicare patients. Their operating costs for that visit are more than they collect from Medicares payment structure.

 

[davmat787]

That's not what I said though. I said in response to Apple of Sodom that the reason some doctors cannot refuse Medicare is not because it's being forced on them, but because their businesses would collapse if there was no Medicare funding. I never said that every doctor must see medicare patients.

My mistake, and apologies, if I misunderstood and thus misrepresented your position.

Not sure if I agree with your statement that they would collapse however. What do you mean by they would collapse if there was no medicare funding, when many choose to opt out of medicare since they lose money?

 

[senseamp]

Who are these doctors? The doctors I know are losing money on a per-visit basis with their Medicare patients. Their operating costs for that visit are more than they collect from Medicares payment structure.

And airlines are losing money when they sell some seats below cost to fill a plane instead of flying it half empty, getting zero revenue for those seats and losing even more money. It obviously makes sense for those doctors to take Medicare patients, or they would opt out of it. If you paid for a CT scanner, it's better to make $500 from a Medicare patient instead of $2000 you make from other patients, than it is to make nothing. If a senior can't pay for a CT scan, it's not going to make other people need more CT scans. It's just going to mean there is one less CT scan.

 

[xj0hnx]

yea, there are doctors like that. some build their own hospitals or clinics too. often with money form tax payers.

easy to solve, take Medicare patients or lose their license.

Doctors serve at our pleasure.

LOL Are you smoking crack again? Doctors don't "serve at our pleasure", they provide a highly trained skill. LOL "serve at our pleasure", what a retard.

 

[senseamp]

My mistake, and apologies, if I misunderstood and thus misrepresented your position.

Not sure if I agree with your statement that they would collapse however. What do you mean by they would collapse if there was no medicare funding, when many choose to opt out of medicare since they lose money?

If there is no Medicare, that's going to knock out a huge chunk of health care demand, and send doctors who currently take Medicare patients fighting for the same patients as those who have opted out. So you will have same supply of doctors chasing a significantly reduced demand for health care. For supply and demand to equalize, prices will have to fall significantly, causing many health practices to fold.

 

[davmat787]

If there is no Medicare, that's going to knock out a huge chunk of health care demand, and send doctors who currently take Medicare patients fighting for the same patients as those who have opted out. So you will have same supply of doctors chasing a significantly reduced demand for health care. For supply and demand to equalize, prices will have to fall significantly, causing many health practices to fold.

I am in no way advocating an end to medicare. All people on medicare need access to health care, that isn't even up for debate IMO. All I am saying is that there are a small amount of doctors, who for various reasons, opt out of taking medicare patients. Usually they are very small private practices.

I think there is room for these type of doctors in the health care industry. Also, above you mention it would be better to take a $500 medicare CT scan than not at all. But what if the COST is $750? The doctor ends up losing money on this.

My doctor would retire if he was forced to take medicare patients, the cost/benefit simply isn't there. He would probably have to hire an extra billing/coding specialist, forgo profitable appts, and he also mentioned something about a $200,000 computer system that could be mandated in the near future if something passes, not sure of the details.

The bottom line is medicare or not, patients can usually see a doctor in very short order. They may not be able to see any doctor, but wait times of months or years is what a Canadian in this thread pointed out too.

Of all the problems our health care system has, I just don't see why the fact that some doctors can legally opt out of seeing medicare patients is one of them.