Doctors: Obamacare Is A Disaster For America

[shira]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypi...y-obamacare-is-no-remedy-for-u-s-health-woes/

Its a shame the "progressives" decided to tune out the American people and ruin the best medical care in the world.

Doctors understand how to prevent and treat illness; most have little or no training in healthcare systems, public health, or other disciplines related to healthcare delivery. Thus, what physicians believe about Obamacare is as relevant as what construction workers believe.

But why don't you tell us how wonderful the status quo is? Tell us about how 45 million uninsured Americans is better than 12 million uninsured. And while you're at it, provide us with number of the healthcare bill - the replacement to Obamacare - that was passed by the House since Republicans took control.

Oh, that's right, there is no such bill.

 

[shira]

Surely the government knows better about health than doctors!

Your so-called point is completely invalid: Doctors know how to treat and prevent disease. They don't know jack about healthcare systems.

 

[senseamp]

I am in no way advocating an end to medicare. All people on medicare need access to health care, that isn't even up for debate IMO. All I am saying is that there are a small amount of doctors, who for various reasons, opt out of taking medicare patients. Usually they are very small private practices.

I think there is room for these type of doctors in the health care industry. Also, above you mention it would be better to take a $500 medicare CT scan than not at all. But what if the COST is $750? The doctor ends up losing money on this.

My doctor would retire if he was forced to take medicare patients, the cost/benefit simply isn't there. He would probably have to hire an extra billing/coding specialist, forgo profitable appts, and he also mentioned something about a $200,000 computer system that could be mandated in the near future if something passes, not sure of the details.

The bottom line is medicare or not, patients can usually see a doctor in very short order. They may not be able to see any doctor, but wait times of months or years is what a Canadian in this thread pointed out too.

Of all the problems our health care system has, I just don't see why the fact that some doctors can legally opt out of seeing medicare patients is one of them.

I don't see it as a problem either. All I am saying is that those who do take Medicare are doing it not because they are forced to, but because it's in their own best interest, otherwise they would have opted out. Selling below "cost" to Medicare patients is often better than not selling to them at all, especially if you have a fixed cost like a CT scanner to pay for.

 

[cybrsage]

But why don't you tell us how wonderful the status quo is?

No answering for him, but I am happy with the status quo. Obama wants to fine my company and me because my company thinks people should have great health insurance at low cost. Obama says that is terrible and must be stopped.

If Obamacare was actually about getting good quality healthcare to people at low cost, the cadillac plan fine would not be in there.

 

[shira]

I agree. Many people spend 10-14 years in school, have $250K student loans, not to mention loss of income and loss of opportunity during those 10-14 years, and they deserve to be compensated at a very high rate of pay. Helping people is only a small part of the reward. There needs to be financial incentive.

This is a fvcking lame argument: Almost everyone who gets a PhD spends 8 - 11 years in school and has $200,000+ in student loans. So why don't you explain to us how the 50,000 difference in student debt (less than six months of income for the average physician) justifies a doubling in average annual income between physicians and PhD's?

 

[senseamp]

Rightwingers just can't decide if they want to bash Obamacare for increasing health care spending or for cutting it. So they are bashing it for both, at the same time

 

[Spikesoldier]

How did you get that from this from my post
In case you can't read simple charts, quality of results as measured by life expectancy is better in countries that have lower costs and cover everyone.

But those countries average citizens don't eat mc donalds all the time, drown themselves in liquor/beer, and smoke a pack a day either. lifestyle choices are a great reason why the average american is obese and makes poor choices that hurt their life expectancy.

youre right i didnt derive the above from the chart. its called being observant of what a slob (and also uneducated, but that's another thread) the average american is. the average american makes poor lifestyle choices compared to every other country.

 

[shira]

americans make different lifestyle choices, culture differences etc.

but beyond that, if your stance is results, then i see you agree with me in post #2. quality will have to suffer to lower costs and cover everyone. then, some 'other' country will invest in HC R&D and leave the US behind. soon enough it will be us looking like were in the 1950's.

The major reason for America's low life expectancy is that a large fraction of the population (the tens of millions of uninsured) doesn't get preventive care. Thus, diseases that can be identified early with screening tests and effectively treated aren't found until treatment is much more expensive and much less effective.

The alleged "lower quality" you speak of would be a trade-off between spending less on very expensive end-of-life treatments that extend life by perhaps only a year or two (and which would still be available, but with larger out-of-pocket costs to patients) and spending more on a much larger number of much less expensive screenings and treatments that provide a much larger years/dollar return.

 

[Spikesoldier]

The major reason for America's low life expectancy is that a large fraction of the population (the tens of millions of uninsured) doesn't get preventive care. Thus, diseases that can be identified early with screening tests and effectively treated aren't found until treatment is much more expensive and much less effective.

The alleged "lower quality" you speak of would be a trade-off between spending less on very expensive end-of-life treatments that extend life by perhaps only a year or two (and which would still be available, but with larger out-of-pocket costs to patients) and spending more on a much larger number of much less expensive screenings and treatments that provide a much larger years/dollar return.

theres another good reason. but goes adds with my generalization of the average american: too lazy to care. but lets say that adding everyone automatically fixes everyone's habit of being lazy. then the waiting lists are going to be very long like the danish poster pointed out in his socialist utopia. i already find it unacceptable that it takes my local hospital nearly three months to be seen by a primary care physician. to be fair though, YMMV hospital to hospital and locality to locality.

 

[senseamp]

But those countries average citizens don't eat mc donalds all the time, drown themselves in liquor/beer, and smoke a pack a day either. lifestyle choices are a great reason why the average american is obese and makes poor choices that hurt their life expectancy.

youre right i didnt derive the above from the chart. its called being observant of what a slob (and also uneducated, but that's another thread) the average american is. the average american makes poor lifestyle choices compared to every other country.

You need to travel more. Many of those countries smoke and drink a LOT more than the US.
But those countries don't have tens of millions of uninsured not getting the care they need. And they don't have insured who are dropped due to pre-existing conditions, and so on. They treat health coverage as an essential human need, not as a financial instrument.

 

[cybrsage]

But those countries don't have tens of millions of uninsured...

Most European countries do not even have more than ten million citizens total in them, with only a handfull above the eleven million mark.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Area_and_population_of_European_countries

 

[IGBT]

can't wait to hear you guys cry and complain about the fine print behavioral requirements of your obama health scam.

 

[senseamp]

Most European countries do not even have more than ten million citizens total in them, with only a handfull above the eleven million mark.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Area_and_population_of_European_countries

EU has more citizens than US, and few, if any uninsured.

 

[TheVrolok]

This is a fvcking lame argument: Almost everyone who gets a PhD spends 8 - 11 years in school and has $200,000+ in student loans. So why don't you explain to us how the 50,000 difference in student debt (less than six months of income for the average physician) justifies a doubling in average annual income between physicians and PhD's?

If you're spending money on a PhD program you're doing it wrong. Most PhD programs are "free" in that tuition is fully paid for by scholarship - you are, of course, doing a shitload of research for the university and TAing classes. You pay for it by the sweat of your brow, but not in tuition dollars. PhD debt is significantly smaller than MD debt. As far as your last statement, PhD's do not have the responsibility that MD's do (patient's lives and well being), there should also be some financial incentive to shoulder that burden.

 

[cybrsage]

EU has more citizens than US, and few, if any uninsured.

The EU is not a country. The EU does not have a healthcare system it forces onto the member countries.

 

[senseamp]

The EU is not a country. The EU does not have a healthcare system it forces onto the member countries.

You can play word games all night, doesn't change that uninsured per capita is still much higher in the US. We pay much more per person to cover a smaller percentage of people.

 

[cybrsage]

You can play word games all night, doesn't change that uninsured per capita is still much higher in the US. We pay much more per person to cover a smaller percentage of people.

You are the one who made the false claim. You could have manned up and said you meant something other than what you said instead of trying to defend the false claim.

 

[umbrella39]

Not an MD or DO I work with have ever stated Obamacare is a disaster for America. All OP/ED FUD BS. Yawn.

 

[senseamp]

You are the one who made the false claim. You could have manned up and said you meant something other than what you said instead of trying to defend the false claim.

What false claim?

Which of these is false:

"those countries don't have tens of millions of uninsured not getting the care they need."

"EU has more citizens than US, and few, if any uninsured."

"uninsured per capita is still much higher in the US"

The only actual false claim here is your claim that I made a false claim.

 

[ShawnD1]

Sounds like a terrible doctor. A physician is not a pharmacy.

Uhh... yeah they are. Doctors are the only people who can write prescriptions. If I need my medication refilled, I see a doctor.

The worst are the doctors who ask a bunch of stupid questions and waste my time. I've been taking this medication for 5 years and you expect it to suddenly stop working? Just give me the damn pills so I can leave.
My gf got fucked around for an hour because of a horrible shitty doctor. She booked an appointment with a doctor who listed his interest as "psychiatric disorders" (depression, ADHD, etc) and he did fuck all. He just wanted to talk. The only reason she didn't punch him in the balls (like she should have) is because she's still young.

When I turn 60 and some douchebag doctor wants to talk about my cancer instead of fixing it, I'm going to stab that fucker in the throat.

 

[davmat787]

If you're spending money on a PhD program you're doing it wrong. Most PhD programs are "free" in that tuition is fully paid for by scholarship - you are, of course, doing a shitload of research for the university and TAing classes. You pay for it by the sweat of your brow, but not in tuition dollars. PhD debt is significantly smaller than MD debt. As far as your last statement, PhD's do not have the responsibility that MD's do (patient's lives and well being), there should also be some financial incentive to shoulder that burden.

PhD's don't have to pay tens of thousands of dollars every year for malpractice insurance either.

 

[davmat787]

LOL Are you smoking crack again? Doctors don't "serve at our pleasure", they provide a highly trained skill. LOL "serve at our pleasure", what a retard.

If he was referring to his gynecologist serving at his pleasure, then it all makes sense. :hmm:

 

[Throckmorton]

Yawn. The AMA isn't involved in deciding the influx of physicians. In fact, its a dying organization that represents a surprisingly low number of physicians today. Everybody knows its name... except it really only consists of ~20-30% of all US physicians (and that number may be high because medical students and residents only sign up for initial benefits they get).

The problem, as most people who actually work in the pipeline of teaching future physicians is that too many graduating medical students are specializing not in primary care (family medicine, pediatrics, internal medicine), but a high number are entering other subspecialities (ENT, Dermatology...) where the demand isn't the same. Why? Reimbursement. The "shortage" of physicians is fueled by the fact that the demand of the "in-need" specialities is not met by the supply of medical students. Why should someone invest in 11+ years of training (college, medical school, residency), $200,000 of debt, only to make $100,000-150,000 working long busy hours when they can make $400,000 being a dermatologist with a cush lifestyle?

And then you add to it the other TRUE limiting factor in physician education. Its not medical school, its not the number of people being admitted. Its residency, the next level of training. Who pays for residency? I'll let other's think about that for a second...

If such a high number is entering the specialties, why do they command such high salaries?

 

[Throckmorton]

The EU is not a country. The EU does not have a healthcare system it forces onto the member countries.

Yet they have unversal coverage...

 

[dawp]

Like forbes isn't a biased source, after all Stevy boy did run for pres as a repub at one time.