Do crime statistics justify prejudice in policing? And what is the solution to the discrepancies?

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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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If you grant his premise that fertilized embryos are human, deserving of all the same rights and protections as anyone else his position makes perfect sense.

The issue is of course that such a premise is insane and not a single person on this planet actually believes that.

One side is arguing for personal responsibility at each point (Preventing pregnancy, not killing a child and actually going through the birth if you do get pregnant, And then having a job and being responsible for the raising of the child after birth).

The other side is arguing that now and do the poors not have any of that responsibility, They are completely incapable of it and need others to do it for them with government money.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,805
23,494
136
One side is arguing for personal responsibility at each point (Preventing pregnancy, not killing a child and actually going through the birth if you do get pregnant, And then having a job and being responsible for the raising of the child after birth).

The other side is arguing that now and do the poors not have any of that responsibility, They are completely incapable of it and need others to do it for them with government money.

And right here glenn1 beats the fuck out of the straw people again.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,245
46,831
136
One side is arguing for personal responsibility at each point (Preventing pregnancy, not killing a child and actually going through the birth if you do get pregnant, And then having a job and being responsible for the raising of the child after birth).

The other side is arguing that now and do the poors not have any of that responsibility, They are completely incapable of it and need others to do it for them with government money.

Don't be silly, having an abortion is most certainly taking personal responsibility. Also, in case you hadn't noticed conservatives are generally quite hostile to contraceptive rights. This is because it has never been about personal responsibility, it's always been about controlling women's sexual agency. Let's not pretend we all don't know this.

Again as I have said many times there is literally not a single sane human being on this planet that believes a fertilized embryo is a child with the same rights as a fully grown human. People might claim they believe that but they are either ignorant, lying, or insane, without exception.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
If you grant his premise that fertilized embryos are human, deserving of all the same rights and protections as anyone else his position makes perfect sense.

The issue is of course that such a premise is insane and not a single person on this planet actually believes that.

Except those who write embryology textbooks, yes.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,245
46,831
136
Except those who write embryology textbooks, yes.

This is false. Embryology textbooks make no judgments as to if fertilized embryos have the same rights and protections as fully grown people. If you think otherwise please link the relevant passages.

Like I said, I know you don't believe it either as we've established in the past.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
34,953
27,803
136
Should you be allowed to kill innocents if it's done in the name of exercising control over your life?
If those "innocents" have somehow found a way to attach themselves to and feed off of my body and the only way to stop them from doing that is to kill them? Yes, deadly force is authorized. Hell, in some states you can shoot a person for slapping you and Republicans will hail you as a fucking hero.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Don't be silly, having an abortion is most certainly taking personal responsibility. Also, in case you hadn't noticed conservatives are generally quite hostile to contraceptive rights. This is because it has never been about personal responsibility, it's always been about controlling women's sexual agency. Let's not pretend we all don't know this.

Again as I have said many times there is literally not a single sane human being on this planet that believes a fertilized embryo is a child with the same rights as a fully grown human. People might claim they believe that but they are either ignorant, lying, or insane, without exception.

Are you kidding? Abortion is the polar opposite, the ultimate rejection of personal responsibility. The closest analog would be bankruptcy, where similarly there’s another party involved who has a legitimate claim on the person involved. And will be irreparably damaged by allowing the person to abandon their responsibility to them But we allow it anyway because we feel bad for the person who screwed up. At least with bankruptcy you’re only screwing them out their money by your irresponsibility and not killing them.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
34,953
27,803
136
Are you kidding? Abortion is the polar opposite, the ultimate rejection of personal responsibility. The closest analog would be bankruptcy, where similarly there’s another party involved who has a legitimate claim on the person involved. And will be irreparably damaged by allowing the person to abandon their responsibility to them But we allow it anyway because we feel bad for the person who screwed up. At least with bankruptcy you’re only screwing them out their money by your irresponsibility and not killing them.
No, the closest analogy would be someone who is able to pay their current bills, subscribes to the free trial period for some service they can't afford and then cancels the service before the normal price kicks in.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,245
46,831
136
Are you kidding? Abortion is the polar opposite, the ultimate rejection of personal responsibility.

Absolutely not, it's obviously taking responsibility. You see an undesirable outcome so you take action to prevent it.

The closest analog would be bankruptcy, where similarly there’s another party involved who has a legitimate claim on the person involved. And will be irreparably damaged by allowing the person to abandon their responsibility to them But we allow it anyway because we feel bad for the person who screwed up. At least with bankruptcy you’re only screwing them out their money by your irresponsibility and not killing them.

This is once again based on the ridiculous idea that a fertilized embryo is somehow a person that is being killed, just like any other person. As I said before literally not one person on earth actually believes this, yourself included, unless they are ignorant, lying, or insane. If a person were asked which they would choose to live if forced to make a choice, a 3 month old baby or a million embryos people would choose the baby every time. Make it a hundred million or a billion, the answer is the same. In fact, people would probably want anyone who let a baby die to save a tray of embryos put in prison. This is because a living child and a fertilized egg are categorically different things that no one believes enjoy similar rights or similar responsibilities.

I would love it if conservatives would stop spouting this transparently ridiculous nonsense about abortion. If you're willing to sacrifice a million embryos in place of one child then you don't get to pretend they are the same thing when determining a woman's responsibility towards it.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
34,953
27,803
136
Absolutely not, it's obviously taking responsibility. You see an undesirable outcome so you take action to prevent it.



This is once again based on the ridiculous idea that a fertilized embryo is somehow a person that is being killed, just like any other person. As I said before literally not one person on earth actually believes this, yourself included, unless they are ignorant, lying, or insane. If a person were asked which they would choose to live if forced to make a choice, a 3 month old baby or a million embryos people would choose the baby every time. Make it a hundred million or a billion, the answer is the same. In fact, people would probably want anyone who let a baby die to save a tray of embryos put in prison. This is because a living child and a fertilized egg are categorically different things that no one believes enjoy similar rights or similar responsibilities.

I would love it if conservatives would stop spouting this transparently ridiculous nonsense about abortion. If you're willing to sacrifice a million embryos in place of one child then you don't get to pretend they are the same thing when determining a woman's responsibility towards it.
The baby doesn't even need to die. Choose between saving a billion embryos and preventing a baby from "merely" suffering 2nd degree burns and nobody will save the tray. Human life isn't sacred unless the loss of it causes suffering.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
This is false. Embryology textbooks make no judgments as to if fertilized embryos have the same rights and protections as fully grown people. If you think otherwise please link the relevant passages.

I've said that the unborn are human beings, which is a well-documented scientific fact. Do you acknowledge that or not?

Like I said, I know you don't believe it either as we've established in the past.

If you're referring to the hypothetical clinic fire, I don't think it demonstrates what you think it does.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,245
46,831
136
The baby doesn't even need to die. Choose between saving a billion embryos and preventing a baby from "merely" suffering 2nd degree burns and nobody will save the tray. Human life isn't sacred unless the loss of it causes suffering.

Very true, those embryos aren't worth anything more than trivial real human suffering yet we're supposed to pretend that the state can effectively take control of a woman's body for it.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
22,896
12,568
136
I dont understand how this spins into an actual debate. The answer is no. Unless of course that you are keeping a little door open for that possibility that all men are NOT created equal.
I get that you may find one more perp this way today, but in the process you will be making two more perps for tomorrow, rinse, repeat, four, eight, sixteen... you will not only be seeding the small building blocks of racism in the target segment but in the police force as well.
You want to piss your pants to keep warm today? Or help build a campfire?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Absolutely not, it's obviously taking responsibility. You see an undesirable outcome so you take action to prevent it.



This is once again based on the ridiculous idea that a fertilized embryo is somehow a person that is being killed, just like any other person. As I said before literally not one person on earth actually believes this, yourself included, unless they are ignorant, lying, or insane. If a person were asked which they would choose to live if forced to make a choice, a 3 month old baby or a million embryos people would choose the baby every time. Make it a hundred million or a billion, the answer is the same. In fact, people would probably want anyone who let a baby die to save a tray of embryos put in prison. This is because a living child and a fertilized egg are categorically different things that no one believes enjoy similar rights or similar responsibilities.

I would love it if conservatives would stop spouting this transparently ridiculous nonsense about abortion. If you're willing to sacrifice a million embryos in place of one child then you don't get to pretend they are the same thing when determining a woman's responsibility towards it.

Depends on whose baby it was. Yours, maybe not.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Hahaha, I love the totally predictable eventual descent into lashing out and spite. Never change, glenn. :)

Hey, you're the one calling for policies that lead to the abortion of tens of thousands of would-be welfare recipients and likely future Dem voters. Thanks for the tax savings. Never change, @fskimospy. You really should get a medal for your work in advancing the good work of earlier generations who were more honest about it.

Eugenics.-Breeding-out-the-Blacks.jpg
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,245
46,831
136
I've said that the unborn are human beings, which is a well-documented scientific fact. Do you acknowledge that or not?

This is absolutely not a well documented scientific fact as there is a wide range of opinions on when human personhood occurs. Regardless, we are discussing when they have legal personhood with all the rights and protections of human beings.

If you're referring to the hypothetical clinic fire, I don't think it demonstrates what you think it does.

It demonstrates exactly that because it requires you to make a value judgment over whose life is more deserving of protection. Given that literally an unlimited number of embryos is not worth one child's life or as dank shows, even one child's significant injury, they are clearly not the same thing or even remotely approaching it.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
34,953
27,803
136
Depends on whose baby it was. Yours, maybe not.
It's called pro-choice for a reason. Nobody is looking to mandate abortion. If you are talking about the males that don't want their potential children aborted then you guys should get cracking on inventing the technology to incubate the fetus in your own body. Until then, women get to decide who lives inside them. You can always find another willing female as well and have a many children as you want.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
It's called pro-choice for a reason. Nobody is looking to mandate abortion. If you are talking about the males that don't want their potential children aborted then you guys should get cracking on inventing the technology to incubate the fetus in your own body. Until then, women get to decide who lives inside them.

I'd propose a compromise where abortion was legal after posting a public notice first with the father being named also. Sorta like when you declare bankruptcy you don't get to do it in private with no one knowing. Maybe make them post a big sign in their front yard like we do when people ask for rezoning of a piece of property. Unborn children deserve at least the same amount of recognition that they're getting shafted as creditors. Irresponsible momma still gets her vacuum tube, she just won't be able to hide and pretend it never happened.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,245
46,831
136
Hey, you're the one calling for policies that lead to the abortion of tens of thousands of would-be welfare recipients and likely future Dem voters. Thanks for the tax savings. Never change, @fskimospy. You really should get a medal for your work in advancing the good work of earlier generations who were more honest about it.

Nice job getting duped yet again, haha.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/08/18/carsons-claim-that-planned-parenthood-targets-blacks-to-control-that-population/

Sanger and blacks

Carson’s campaign initially sent us a blog item with alleged quotes from Sanger — “colored people are like human weeds” — that turned out to be unverified and false.

Margaret Sanger was a civil rights hero and she worked closely with people such as Martin Luther King. Dishonest conservatives have frequently tried to take her comments out of context to paint her as a racist when the African Americans of her time knew she was exactly the opposite. She was a believer in eugenics, which is bad, but it had nothing to do with eugenics based on race. (she was a supporter based on congenital defects and other things imagined at the time to be genetically determined)

Here's MLK's speech upon accepting the Margaret Sanger award:

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-gulf-coast/mlk-acceptance-speech

There is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger's early efforts. She, like we, saw the horrifying conditions of ghetto life. Like we, she knew that all of society is poisoned by cancerous slums. Like we, she was a direct actionist - a nonviolent resister. She was willing to accept scorn and abuse until the truth she saw was revealed to the millions. At the turn of the century she went into the slums and set up a birth control clinic, and for this deed she went to jail because she was violating an unjust law. Yet the years have justified her actions. She launched a movement which is obeying a higher law to preserve human life under humane conditions. Margaret Sanger had to commit what was then called a crime in order to enrich humanity, and today we honor her courage and vision; for without them there would have been no beginning. Our sure beginning in the struggle for equality by nonviolent direct action may not have been so resolute without the tradition established by Margaret Sanger and people like her. Negroes have no mere academic nor ordinary interest in family planning. They have a special and urgent concern.

I hope you are honest enough to admit you made a mistake and falsely smeared a civil rights pioneer.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
34,953
27,803
136
I've said that the unborn are human beings, which is a well-documented scientific fact. Do you acknowledge that or not?



If you're referring to the hypothetical clinic fire, I don't think it demonstrates what you think it does.
Let's pretend you are held at gunpoint and forced to choose:
Slap this baby
Dump gasoline into a dumpster filled with billions of embryos and light them on fire

If you refuse to choose, the you and the baby will be thrown into the dumpster and all of you will be burned.

Do you slap that baby?

Hell I bet you wouldn't harm a fucking kitten if you switched it out for the baby.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Nice job getting duped yet again, haha.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/08/18/carsons-claim-that-planned-parenthood-targets-blacks-to-control-that-population/



Margaret Sanger was a civil rights hero and she worked closely with people such as Martin Luther King. Dishonest conservatives have frequently tried to take her comments out of context to paint her as a racist when the African Americans of her time knew she was exactly the opposite. She was a believer in eugenics, which is bad, but it had nothing to do with eugenics based on race. (she was a supporter based on congenital defects and other things imagined at the time to be genetically determined)

Here's MLK's speech upon accepting the Margaret Sanger award:

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-gulf-coast/mlk-acceptance-speech



I hope you are honest enough to admit you made a mistake and falsely smeared a civil rights pioneer.

A eugenist. Either way the 10s of millions of black babies never born because they were aborted don't really care. Too lazy to pull up the statistics but IIRC more black pregnancies end in abortion than childbirth. Like I said, keep up the good work I guess.