Do crime statistics justify prejudice in policing? And what is the solution to the discrepancies?

[brycejones]

So you do agree that profiling makes sense?

No

 

[brycejones]

This is an unbelievably complex issue. If you want a real answer on it, I suggest you do hard research.

That would require actual work. The OP is truly willfully ignorant.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

working to remediate the situation promotes racism - Republicans

oh well, nothing to be done.

We have factual problems and I'm not sure how to handle them. When more crimes are committed by blacks per capita something needs to be done at a deeper level than locking them up but on the other hand when someone commits a crime I will not support preferential treatment by race. That means the punishment needs to be handed out on an equal basis. Of course it's not but is a goal we need to meet. But everything else being the same more black people will be arrested as they commit more crimes on average. So now what? Pretend that isn't true and racist?

Between now and equality I'm not sure what would be acceptable to most. My sentiment is do it and pay the price and I don't care how much you make, male or female, black or white although people will have a field day in choosing statistical significance.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm saying if profiling by race makes sense why aren't white guys profiled?

I think they are. When it comes to looking at violent right-wing militia types people aren't looking to focus resources on inner city black kids. Domestic violence? The males are immediately seen to be the perps when it's not always true.

I think some profiling for very specific purposes is a rational tool to approach in terms of possible suspects, but that's not the same as "the black kid did it". Serial killers are more often white males than anything else, but blacks have done and rarely women so "this must be our guy because he looks like one" and then there's the proper application. Pulling over black people because they are black? Nope nope nope.

We pay LEO shit, don't train them, send them out into hostile environments and they screw up. Geeze, I wonder why?

 

[ch33zw1z]

We have factual problems and I'm not sure how to handle them. When more crimes are committed by blacks per capita something needs to be done at a deeper level than locking them up but on the other hand when someone commits a crime I will not support preferential treatment by race. That means the punishment needs to be handed out on an equal basis. Of course it's not but is a goal we need to meet. But everything else being the same more black people will be arrested as they commit more crimes on average. So now what? Pretend that isn't true and racist?

Between now and equality I'm not sure what would be acceptable to most. My sentiment is do it and pay the price and I don't care how much you make, male or female, black or white although people will have a field day in choosing statistical significance.

Do what exactly though? The problem is there's people who will not be able to change their racist predisposition. Yes, some of those people are LEO's, and do very well at hiding it. But LEO's aren't the prosecution, judge, or jury. There's layers of the process that need to be addressed.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I think they are. When it comes to looking at violent right-wing militia types people aren't looking to focus resources on inner city black kids. Domestic violence? The males are immediately seen to be the perps when it's not always true.

I think some profiling for very specific purposes is a rational tool to approach in terms of possible suspects, but that's not the same as "the black kid did it". Serial killers are more often white males than anything else, but blacks have done and rarely women so "this must be our guy because he looks like one" and then there's the proper application. Pulling over black people because they are black? Nope nope nope.

We pay LEO shit, don't train them, send them out into hostile environments and they screw up. Geeze, I wonder why?

Except we pay them pretty well, just look at the dude in the article here https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...-all-purpose-harassment.2545608/post-39846653

LEO unions WILL be the last unions standing someday. Good bene's, retirement bene's, try get that in your corporate package that's even comparable.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This doesn't look like a great corporate package to me.

If someone is in NYC? Sure, great bennies but in buttfsck rural areas especially in the south? Some are close to minimum wage. If you are a Mass state trooper you get paid to stay near work crews, in fact that's the law that they must. A couple hundred thou is possible with OT and all those yummy bennies. Most don't work there. It's like looking at how the highest paid teachers are used as "they make too much" when others aren't making crap.

Living in the Chicago area on 50K with a family? You aren't going to get the brights lights with that and spending of training and certification is a joke.

 

[ch33zw1z]

This doesn't look like a great corporate package to me.

If someone is in NYC? Sure, great bennies but in buttfsck rural areas especially in the south? Some are close to minimum wage. If you are a Mass state trooper you get paid to stay near work crews, in fact that's the law that they must. A couple hundred thou is possible with OT and all those yummy bennies. Most don't work there. It's like looking at how the highest paid teachers are used as "they make too much" when others aren't making crap.

Living in the Chicago area on 50K with a family? You aren't going to get the brights lights with that and spending of training and certification is a joke.

I don't disagree with you. It does vary greatly, although the link doesn't actually discuss OT or bene's. So what could we suggest that would encourage demand for educated individuals to join our LEO ranks? Higher taxes? I'm pretty sure we know how that will go over in the rural areas.

And still, this is the first step of the process.

Systemic racism seems like a overwhelming problem to tackle, because it is. It's been a slow process in America. Take for instance the length of time between the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement. And we have a bunch of people still in denial, and fighting against solutions while not providing their own.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't disagree with you. It does vary greatly, although the link doesn't actually discuss OT or bene's. So what could we suggest that would encourage demand for educated individuals to join our LEO ranks? Higher taxes? I'm pretty sure we know how that will go over in the rural areas.

And still, this is the first step of the process.

Systemic racism seems like a overwhelming problem to tackle, because it is. It's been a slow process in America. Take for instance the length of time between the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement. And we have a bunch of people still in denial, and fighting against solutions while not providing their own.

I don't have a good answer for you, meaning a sure-fire solution but some that may help and it does come down to increasing spending. Perhaps an allowance depending on the cost of living in a given area, basically state subsidization of local municipalities accompanied with standardization of practices. People with college degrees aren't picked because they get fed up and quit so paid education dealing with law specific topics would be offered and has to be passed. That woman who shot someone in the wrong apartment hadn't a clue as to handle the situation. She was a product of her training and the results followed accordingly. As far as abuse goes every single officer has a camera on them and in their vehicle, including the interior. These cannot be shut off and the data is uploaded in real time with a "black box" storage on the vehicle in case of communication errors. This is stored at a data facility outside the control of law enforcement. This is ought to be on file with no deletions allowed. Put this across state lines if need be. Camera breaks? There would be one in the glove box and the malfunction immediately reported.

Certification for duty needs to be comprehensive in training and kept up at some determined intervals

Money. Yep money and yes many places cannot afford it but if Trump can have 4 billion dollars worth of upgrades to AF1 then we can find the money for this.

Does it take care of everything immediately? Heck no, but motivation, training and accountability can be used to alter behaviors and those become the standard over time.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I don't have a good answer for you, meaning a sure-fire solution but some that may help and it does come down to increasing spending. Perhaps an allowance depending on the cost of living in a given area, basically state subsidization of local municipalities accompanied with standardization of practices. People with college degrees aren't picked because they get fed up and quit so paid education dealing with law specific topics would be offered and has to be passed. That woman who shot someone in the wrong apartment hadn't a clue as to handle the situation. She was a product of her training and the results followed accordingly. As far as abuse goes every single officer has a camera on them and in their vehicle, including the interior. These cannot be shut off and the data is uploaded in real time with a "black box" storage on the vehicle in case of communication errors. This is stored at a data facility outside the control of law enforcement. This is ought to be on file with no deletions allowed. Put this across state lines if need be. Camera breaks? There would be one in the glove box and the malfunction immediately reported.

Certification for duty needs to be comprehensive in training and kept up at some determined intervals

Money. Yep money and yes many places cannot afford it but if Trump can have 4 billion dollars worth of upgrades to AF1 then we can find the money for this.

Does it take care of everything immediately? Heck no, but motivation, training and accountability can be used to alter behaviors and those become the standard over time.

Sure, I agree. The body camera thing is a big deal IMO. It would help tremendously. Now I'm ok with all that, and I think even rural areas would generally be. I even think most LEO's would be. But I'm certainly doubtful of the current administrations ability to do anything about this. Even if they wanted to. The Fed's will have to dump more money into some states that can't fund it themselves.

 

[Greenman]

Should police be blind to ethnicity or do crime statistics justify more targeted policing? Someone made a post in the "Existing while black" thread which had some interesting stats, I looked it up and it looks accurate. If one ethnicity commits far more crime per capita than others should police be blind to that fact or is a more targeting policing effort justified? And what is the solution to the vast discrepancies?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with European Americans 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than European Americans, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of European Americans victims killed by European Americans, and 93% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans.[49][50][51]​

​

So the reality is that an ethnicity that is 13% of the population accounts for 52.5% of homicides. There’s various reasons for that, poverty being cheif among them, but no matter the reasons the reality is they are way more likely to commit murders. And the fact that 93% of the blacks that are killed are murdered by other blacks it’s obvious that it’s a problem internal to their communities.

Personally I think that yes it should be taken into account, it would be foolish not to. Police should be working with these communities to be more ingrained in them and work to actually serve and protect instead of police and arrest.

What’s causing the discrepancies though? Is it purely poverty? Does culture play a part in it?

It's called profiling, and everyone does it. Some pretend they don't, but we all know it's a lie. Police profile, DHS profiles, the TSA profiles. Though every now and then the TSA will pull an old Jewish lady out of line and search her to prove they don't profile.

Back to the main topic, inner city blacks have a cultural problem, and a poverty problem, though the two are almost certainly linked. I spent a year working in the worst ghetto in San Francisco, that was an eye opening experience. One of the fellows that worked for me was in a local gang and got shot by a rival gang. So his gang went and killed a guy from the first gang, they retaliated in kind. I tried to explain to one of the fellows that the end result of that loop was everyone dying, he said that I didn't understand ghetto life. I chose (wisely I think) not to argue the point.

 

[Atreus21]

Should police be blind to ethnicity or do crime statistics justify more targeted policing? Someone made a post in the "Existing while black" thread which had some interesting stats, I looked it up and it looks accurate. If one ethnicity commits far more crime per capita than others should police be blind to that fact or is a more targeting policing effort justified? And what is the solution to the vast discrepancies?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with European Americans 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost 8 times higher than European Americans, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of European Americans victims killed by European Americans, and 93% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans.[49][50][51]​

​

So the reality is that an ethnicity that is 13% of the population accounts for 52.5% of homicides. There’s various reasons for that, poverty being cheif among them, but no matter the reasons the reality is they are way more likely to commit murders. And the fact that 93% of the blacks that are killed are murdered by other blacks it’s obvious that it’s a problem internal to their communities.

Personally I think that yes it should be taken into account, it would be foolish not to. Police should be working with these communities to be more ingrained in them and work to actually serve and protect instead of police and arrest.

What’s causing the discrepancies though? Is it purely poverty? Does culture play a part in it?

There's no excuse for racial profiling. Every individual should be treated as exactly that. Human nature confounds this effort, but it must be fought nonetheless.

That said, black culture, and contemporary American culture overall, does little to substantively address the illegitimacy and fatherless-ness problems, which many black leaders have cited as the principal problem facing young black men, and the driving force behind much of what ails black Americans. Latinos and whites are right behind them - blacks just got there first.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I'm saying if profiling by race makes sense why aren't white guys profiled?

They are and can be. “White guys” aren’t one homogenous group of people. Profiling correlates to socio economic factors.

 

[HomerJS]

They are and can be. “White guys” aren’t one homogenous group of people. Profiling correlates to socio economic factors.

New York failed to do the equivalent of stop and frisk for white guys committing financial crimes.

 

[Jhhnn]

The WoD warps enforcement entirely. When cops bust people for drugs in a given area they get federal money for more patrols in the area to stop the drugs, so of course more people get busted, which yields more federal funds. It's easier to get big numbers in a more densely populated urban area, which is where more POC live so of course they get the high hard one. They also spend more time on the street, walking to where they want to go, while suburbanites drive to get there, leading to less exposure to stop & frisk stuff.

 

[DrDoug]

It's getting Ugly again and race/racism is once again his topic of choice!

I thought conservatives believed in individual responsibility, but apparently it's racial group responsibility.

Like much of conservative philosophy, it's a moving target. For example, Duncan Hunter Jr. believes that his wife is responsible for his actions, which is a reasonable position for a conservative to take on personal responsibility. In this case, Duncan is exercising his personal responsibility to have his wife take personal responsibility for him. Now if it was a Democratic politician saying the same thing then clearly the Democrat would be ducking his personal responsibility for his actions, which would make conservatives cry.

Same thing with conservatives and religion; a minority of Muslims are bad people so that means if you see a Muslim then they are probably up to no good. Now look at abortion clinic bombers and killers of the physicians who staff those clinics; since the persons doing the shootings/bombings, having been inspired by their Christianity to take action, are lone wolves and thus all Christians are good to go. It's the same thing with conservatives and race; conservative white - good, white supremacist - better, everybody else - BAD!

Look at Ugly here, he chews on race issues like a dog on a juicy bone, always looking for ways to justify his racism and convince others that he's right about these issues.

 

[m8d]

The Enduring Myth of Black Criminality

 

[Maxima1]

This doesn't look like a great corporate package to me.

If someone is in NYC? Sure, great bennies but in buttfsck rural areas especially in the south? Some are close to minimum wage. If you are a Mass state trooper you get paid to stay near work crews, in fact that's the law that they must. A couple hundred thou is possible with OT and all those yummy bennies. Most don't work there. It's like looking at how the highest paid teachers are used as "they make too much" when others aren't making crap.

Living in the Chicago area on 50K with a family? You aren't going to get the brights lights with that and spending of training and certification is a joke.

That's a poor source. Note: this figure doesn't include comparison to private sector total compensation (heavily favoring the cops) and the ample overtime opportunities many cops get (sometimes getting paid for several hours to one actual), which you seem to understand.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/protective-service/police-and-detectives.htm
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm#st

2018 - Median pay $63,380 per year

 

[brycejones]

There's no excuse for racial profiling. Every individual should be treated as exactly that. Human nature confounds this effort, but it must be fought nonetheless.

That said, black culture, and contemporary American culture overall, does little to substantively address the illegitimacy and fatherless-ness problems, which many black leaders have cited as the principal problem facing young black men, and the driving force behind much of what ails black Americans. Latinos and whites are right behind them - blacks just got there first.

We'll just ignore the long and concerted attack on sex education, contraception, and abortion. None of those things could possibly have anything to do with anything.

 

[glenn1]

Sure, I agree. The body camera thing is a big deal IMO. It would help tremendously. Now I'm ok with all that, and I think even rural areas would generally be. I even think most LEO's would be. But I'm certainly doubtful of the current administrations ability to do anything about this. Even if they wanted to. The Fed's will have to dump more money into some states that can't fund it themselves.

Of course they help tremendously, prosecutors love them. The idea that body cameras would somehow improve things for blacks WRT "police prejudice" is fanciful when as @Hayabusa Rider points out the "facts have a liberal basis" even when they show blacks are disproportionately represented in crime statistics. If anything police body cameras are likely to exacerbate the "discrepancies" the thread title mentions. The strategic ambiguity provided by lack of video footage is the main advantage of guys like Mumia Abu-Jamal who would have been executed decades ago if police body cams were in use.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ors-benefiting-most-police-body-cameras.shtml

 

[HomerJS]

Of course they help tremendously, prosecutors love them. The idea that body cameras would somehow improve things for blacks WRT "police prejudice" is fanciful when as @Hayabusa Rider points out the "facts have a liberal basis" even when they show blacks are disproportionately represented in crime statistics. If anything police body cameras are likely to exacerbate the "discrepancies" the thread title mentions. The strategic ambiguity provided by lack of video footage is the main advantage of guys like Mumia Abu-Jamal who would have been executed decades ago if police body cams were in use.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ors-benefiting-most-police-body-cameras.shtml

The only thing body cameras have done to date is confirm what blacks have been claiming all along about how they are treated by police. Same things for cameras on phone where people are recording abuse. So far the only white people are surprised at what recordings reveal. On a positive note more police are being held accountable even though results are still too slow in coming.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Of course they help tremendously, prosecutors love them. The idea that body cameras would somehow improve things for blacks WRT "police prejudice" is fanciful when as @Hayabusa Rider points out the "facts have a liberal basis" even when they show blacks are disproportionately represented in crime statistics. If anything police body cameras are likely to exacerbate the "discrepancies" the thread title mentions. The strategic ambiguity provided by lack of video footage is the main advantage of guys like Mumia Abu-Jamal who would have been executed decades ago if police body cams were in use.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ors-benefiting-most-police-body-cameras.shtml

The article highlights what I stated earlier in the thread. LEO's are the only one layer of the system that has created the numbers in question. Reading the article, there's a few points that stand out to me, this one being the main one:

What has been sold to the public as a new era of transparency and accountability has instead become just another closed shop run by law enforcement and prosecutors. The main beneficiaries of millions of hours of footage are police officers. Footage that helps secure convictions makes its way to prosecutors immediately. Footage showing possible misconduct or exonerating evidence remains in law enforcement agencies' complete control until forced to relinquish it. While there have been positive developments here and there, the best accountability tool still seems to be cameras, but mostly those wielded by citizens.

So, again, it's not like it's the body camera's that won't help, it's that the system is allowed to use the information, or only the pieces it wants, to get the results it wants. This is really the broader issue, and it's the reason numbers from a system like we have already in place shouldn't logically be used to promote more systemic racism.

 

[glenn1]

The only thing body cameras have done to date is confirm what blacks have been claiming all along about how they are treated by police. Same things for cameras on phone where people are recording abuse. So far the only white people are surprised at what recordings reveal. On a positive note more police are being held accountable even though results are still too slow in coming.

It's great when it records abuse. You're missing the bigger point however, that body cameras don't mind control the officer and force him to concentrate less on minorities and more on whites. Your body camera will record whatever you do, and if you're an officer who stops blacks 100x more often then whites (made up number for sake of argument, don't ask for citations) then it won't matter if you record because the camera would do nothing to address the "discrepancies" this thread calls out. Eventually it comes down to each person needing to decide what the "problem" it is we're trying to solve - is it that crime rates are higher in minority communities? Is that minorities represent an outsize portion of those incarcerated? Is it that we're accepting that minority crime rates are higher, but we want police to spend equal amounts of times investigating non-minorities in the name of fairness? Have politicians re-engineer the criminal code to place more emphasis on more stereotypically "white" crimes (e.g. securities fraud) and less on stereotypically "minority" crimes (e.g. street level drug dealing)? Something else entirely?

 

[fskimospy]

It's called profiling, and everyone does it. Some pretend they don't, but we all know it's a lie. Police profile, DHS profiles, the TSA profiles. Though every now and then the TSA will pull an old Jewish lady out of line and search her to prove they don't profile.

Back to the main topic, inner city blacks have a cultural problem, and a poverty problem, though the two are almost certainly linked. I spent a year working in the worst ghetto in San Francisco, that was an eye opening experience. One of the fellows that worked for me was in a local gang and got shot by a rival gang. So his gang went and killed a guy from the first gang, they retaliated in kind. I tried to explain to one of the fellows that the end result of that loop was everyone dying, he said that I didn't understand ghetto life. I chose (wisely I think) not to argue the point.

Since you are stating that prejudice is

1) widespread
2) unavoidable, and
3)that they only people claiming this prejudice does not exist are liars

That sure seems like one of the strongest possible arguments for government policies designed to combat the harmful effect of prejudice such as affirmative action.

 

[glenn1]

Since you are stating that prejudice is

1) widespread
2) unavoidable, and
3)that they only people claiming this prejudice does not exist are liars

That sure seems like one of the strongest possible arguments for government policies designed to combat the harmful effect of prejudice such as affirmative action.

So prejudice is the causal factor behind SF gang members shooting each other as @Greenman was discussing?

I can see that reasoning now, "I'm so mad about that racist white man not giving me a job I'm going to go kill another black dude in my neighborhood that also didn't get the job."