Dearborn school district now offering students 100% Halal menu

[Fanatical Meat]

P

The school probably isn't running the abattoir or employing the slaughtermen.

He is talking about the USDA money *I think*

 

[cirrrocco]

P

The school probably isn't running the abattoir or employing the slaughtermen.

USDA also doesn't run the school . It's funds are used by the school and indirectly the abattoir

The page specifically says "administering USDA program"

 

[Vic]

I just don't understand why you would want to needlessly complicate things, inconvenience everyone and make everything more expensive for no real positive reason.

He explained his motivations early in the thread. Something about how this is the gateway to forced Sharia law or whatever.

 

[cirrrocco]

Guys got to go.. But thanks for the cool responses. have a good rest of the day.

 

[WelshBloke]

He is talking about the USDA money *I think*

So school gets money and gives money to suppliers for halal meat?
Surely any employment issues are between the owners of the slaughterhouse and the employees there?

 

[WelshBloke]

He explained his motivations early in the thread. Something about how this is the gateway to forced Sharia law or whatever.

Oooh! Well in that case let's all PANIC! YHE MOOSLIMS ARE COMING! HIDE YOUR BEER AND BACON FOLKS!

 

[Starbuck1975]

So you want the schools to spend more than they need to, massively complicate their administrative and procurement systems, build a couple of new kitchens just so they can have separate halal, kosher and secular cheese pizzas that are identical and beef tacos that only differ in where they bought the mince from?

Careful now. Pragmatism and convenience are poor criteria when dismissing how out groups may perceive such practices.

You also realize that I would have no argument if this were a cultural rather than religious accomodation. My high school served crappy spagetti and meatballs because there was a large Italian population. That scenario doesn’t have Constitutional implications.

Halal is a religious accomodation. Separation of church and state is a consideration.

 

[IronWing]

So school gets money and gives money to suppliers for halal meat?
Surely any employment issues are between the owners of the slaughterhouse and the employees there?

If the school district's policies have a disparate outcome on employment opportunities for non-Muslims then the case would be made for illegal discrimination. A butcher or group of butchers would have to step forward claiming illegal discrimination to set an investigation in motion. In this case, the purported impact would be fairly diffuse and demonstrating a disparate outcome would be difficult.

 

[WelshBloke]

Careful now. Pragmatism and convenience are poor criteria when dismissing how out groups may perceive such practices.

So this isn't something that concerns you but you are concerned on the behalf of others? Is that where you are?

You also realize that I would have no argument if this were a cultural rather than religious accomodation. My high school served crappy spagetti and meatballs because there was a large Italian population. That scenario doesn’t have Constitutional implications.

Theres a pretty massive crossover between cultural and religious things!

Halal is a religious accomodation. Separation of church and state is a consideration.

You seem massively hung up on that point. Ok, if for the sake of argument we agree, in what way is serving Halal food discriminating against any pupil in that school? Halal is just a food label. Is a cheese pizza non discriminatory but the same pizza with an halal label on discriminatory?

 

[WelshBloke]

If the school district's policies have a disparate outcome on employment opportunities for non-Muslims then the case would be made for illegal discrimination. A butcher or group of butchers would have to step forward claiming illegal discrimination to set an investigation in motion. In this case, the purported impact would be fairly diffuse and demonstrating a disparate outcome would be difficult.

I'm pretty sure that the school would be buying from massive food processing facilities, youd have to look into their employment records and show that they were out of kilter with the local population I guess.

 

[IronWing]

I'm pretty sure that the school would be buying from massive food processing facilities, youd have to look into their employment records and show that they were out of kilter with the local population I guess.

You'd have to show that they were out of kilter with the pool of folks employed in butchering or seeking employment in butchering.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So this isn't something that concerns you but you are concerned on the behalf of others? Is that where you are?

Not concerned. More entertained by how the polarity changes for certain topics.

Theres a pretty massive crossover between cultural and religious things!

Yet the Constitution covers one and not the other.

You seem massively hung up on that point. Ok, if for the sake of argument we agree, in what way is serving Halal food discriminating against any pupil in that school? Halal is just a food label. Is a cheese pizza non discriminatory but the same pizza with an halal label on discriminatory?

This is where some of you are stuck. It is not discrimination against the student, unless the student finds it discriminatory and chooses to pursue legal action.

This is discriminatory against the supply chain. The government is a huge procurement agency, and by default, shapes culture by how it spends money. By exclusively purchasing halal meat, the school is by default endorsing Islamic religious tradition. Can’t and shouldn’t do that. I would feel the same way if a Jewish school administrator motivated by his faith deliberately and exclusively purhased kosher hot dogs for the cafeteria.

 

[WelshBloke]

You'd have to show that they were out of kilter with the pool of folks employed in butchering or seeking employment in butchering.

Plus large operations are probably going to have plenty of openings that Muslims wouldn't do. I presume that pork produce is a thing in the US?

 

[brycejones]

Oooh! Well in that case let's all PANIC! YHE MOOSLIMS ARE COMING! HIDE YOUR BEER AND BACON FOLKS!

Yeah people "he knows" described Dearborn as "Little Arabia" to him and if the school serves halal food today decades from now Dearborn could become a "no-go" zone.

My input of what Dearborn is actually like because I live here was completely ignored.

 

[fskimospy]

Not concerned. More entertained by how the polarity changes for certain topics.

Yet the Constitution covers one and not the other.

This is where some of you are stuck. It is not discrimination against the student, unless the student finds it discriminatory and chooses to pursue legal action.

This is discriminatory against the supply chain. The government is a huge procurement agency, and by default, shapes culture by how it spends money. By exclusively purchasing halal meat, the school is by default endorsing Islamic religious tradition. Can’t and shouldn’t do that. I would feel the same way if a Jewish school administrator motivated by his faith deliberately and exclusively purhased kosher hot dogs for the cafeteria.

The school is not buying it for reasons of faith, they are buying it to comply with the dietary restrictions of their student body.

Your case would be laughed out of court.

 

[Starbuck1975]

They are buying it to comply with the religious restrictions of their student body.

FTFY

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The school is not buying it for reasons of faith, they are buying it to comply with the dietary restrictions of their student body.

Your case would be laughed out of court.

It is literally right in the USDA guidelines Circco posted. Look above.

 

[WelshBloke]

Not concerned. More entertained by how the polarity changes for certain topics.

Really? That's pretty much the definition of arguing in bad faith, dont do it.

This is where some of you are stuck. It is not discrimination against the student, unless the student finds it discriminatory and chooses to pursue legal action.

Well a fair number of your points weren't about the supply chain. So are we moving on from the welfare of the students? Are we in agreement that purchasing Halal meat is the best solution for the school and the students?

This is discriminatory against the supply chain. The government is a huge procurement agency, and by default, shapes culture by how it spends money. By exclusively purchasing halal meat, the school is by default endorsing Islamic religious tradition. Can’t and shouldn’t do that. I would feel the same way if a Jewish school administrator motivated by his faith deliberately and exclusively purhased kosher hot dogs for the cafeteria.

I'd say that the school is pragmatically buying the food that fits the needs of its students. This isnt like your last example, the school administrator isnt making purchases to suit him, hes making purchases to suit the school population.

 

[fskimospy]

FTFY

Why the students have those dietary restrictions is irrelevant from a government standpoint.

There is simply no escaping this fact.

 

[fskimospy]

Really? That's pretty much the definition of arguing in bad faith, dont do it.


Well a fair number of your points weren't about the supply chain. So are we moving on from the welfare of the students? Are we in agreement that purchasing Halal meat is the best solution for the school and the students?

I'd say that the school is pragmatically buying the food that fits the needs of its students. This isnt like your last example, the school administrator isnt making purchases to suit him, hes making purchases to suit the school population.

Yes, I noticed how he realized that he needed to create a religious motivation for the administrator to make his example work.

It’s pretty obvious at this point he knows he’s wrong, but he will never, ever admit it.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Really? That's pretty much the definition of arguing in bad faith, dont do it.

Bad faith arguing is positioning a religious requirement as a dietary restriction. What happens to a Muslim if he eats something non-halal? Absolutely nothing! I’ve witnessed this with my own eyes.

Well a fair number of your points weren't about the supply chain. So are we moving on from the welfare of the students? Are we in agreement that purchasing Halal meat is the best solution for the school and the students?

I brought up Tyson earlier in the thread from a pricing and USDA standpoint. I agree it may be pragmatic, but pragmatism and exclusion often work in tandem. Many pragmatic things are unconstitutional.

I'd say that the school is pragmatically buying the food that fits the needs of its students. This isnt like your last example, the school administrator isnt making purchases to suit him, hes making purchases to suit the school population.

And I would counter that by 2nd generation, most of these Muslim kids are going to be obese Americans hitting fast food like its going out of style.

 

[JEDIYoda]

No one has responded to certificates where the slaughterer has to be Muslim and they are Muslim [I posted the certificates of three of the dearborn vendors] . There has been a whole lot of diversion and nonsensical whatabouttery so far and it is shameful that no one is able to focus on the topic on hand. talk about little minions getting sidetracked.

Why are govt funds going going to a jobs program for only one religious group. The proponents have still not answered that question but keep diverting the topic to 'why you hate islam,/ why you nazi???/ why wont everyone eat halal/ why do you have to be so obtuse etc etc'

if folks cannot respond to the topic on hand, I would respectfully request the mods to close the topic as the last 400 responses here are pretty much 'hah I got you'

First of all the cerificates mean nothing in relationship to the article!
You want us to entertain the notion that you are sincerely concerned? That is funny ! You are trying real hard, almost desperately hard to make an issue out nothing!
What you think of Muslims or seperation of church and state or denying those jobs to non Muslims does not matter in the least!
The aretucle is about providing nutritious well prepared fold to the students!
Youa are the one derailing the article — no one else!

 

[WelshBloke]

Bad faith arguing is positioning a religious requirement as a dietary restriction. What happens to a Muslim if he eats something non-halal? Absolutely nothing! I’ve witnessed this with my own eyes.

Surely making someone eat something against their religion is the definition of prohibiting the free exercise of their religion?

I brought up Tyson earlier in the thread from a pricing and USDA standpoint. I agree it may be pragmatic, but pragmatism and exclusion often work in tandem. Many pragmatic things are unconstitutional.

Again, just for clarity, are you moving on from the argument about what is best for the school and students?

And I would counter that by 2nd generation, most of these Muslim kids are going to be obese Americans hitting fast food like its going out of style.

And then they can make their own decisions for themselves. Also fast food can be halal as well.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Surely making someone eat something against their religion is the definition of prohibiting the free exercise of their religion?

No one is forcing them to eat meat. When I was a kid, during periods of fasting, the Catholic kids brought peanut butter sandwiches to school and didn’t drink milk boxes. The Orthodox kids had it worst because their fasts were more restrictive.

Again, just for clarity, are you moving on from the argument about what is best for the school and students?

Pragmatism is not always constitutional.

And then they can make their own decisions for themselves. Also fast food can be halal as well.

Yes, I eat it often

 

[WelshBloke]

No one is forcing them to eat meat. When I was a kid, during periods of fasting, the Catholic kids brought peanut butter sandwiches to school and didn’t drink milk boxes. The Orthodox kids had it worst because their fasts were more restrictive.

So do you consider the cheese pizza halal or not?