CIA Torture Report Set to Go Nuclear

[piasabird]

The government had this report for over 1 year now.

 

[lozina]

Wow, just saw an interview on CNN with former congressman Joe Walsh... what a complete asshole. Basically his view is since the "enemy" are animals we need to act like animals to defeat them. What in the holy hell is wrong with this guy? He would absolutely be a distinguished SS member had he been around at that time.

 

[Brainonska511]

Wow, just saw an interview on CNN with former congressman Joe Walsh... what a complete asshole. Basically his view is since the "enemy" are animals we need to act like animals to defeat them. What in the holy hell is wrong with this guy? He would absolutely be a distinguished SS member had he been around at that time.

The people defending these methods (especially with euphemisms like "enhanced interrogations") are quite sickening. How can you purport to hold up the Constitution and the ideals of this country and simultaneously support torturing people? Those ideals simply don't mesh. It's disgusting that people were torturing prisoners in the name of the US.

 

[Jeff7]

Yeah this. What they released is essentially the same crap that like 99% of all fraternity pledging is like. Yes if done long enough it's pretty brutal, but aside from water boarding, must of that stuff is harmless done short term.

One of the things they listed they do is put them on a tarp and basically douse them in cold water on and off again, while not being allowed to sleep, etc. When I pledged, I stood in a cold ass basement for 24hrs straight, with no sleep, all while being covered in ice cold water on and off again about every hour. I pissed myself to keep warm.

I guess though in a way this type of torture is worse than say, cutting their ears off or something. It messes with you mentally and effects your whole body. That's probably why they opt for stuff like this over traditional torture. I guess the exception would be waterboarding, which seems pretty bad.

But you knew that you were still in control, and you knew that your life wasn't at risk. You could decide to end it whenever you wanted to. You probably weren't being threatened with execution, and I doubt there was anyone there threatening to kill your family.

These people can't just say "Ok guys, I've had enough. I'm ready to go back to my comfortable room and never do this again."
You just face the promise of doing it again in a few days, with the knowledge that you won't even have the option of being able to kill yourself to end it.

Sssshh. The liberals in this thread are minutes away from blowing their collective tops from the U.S. keeping detainees 'awake' for extended periods.

Give me a break. Give me the rubber hose. I'll be the first, in a looong line of people, waiting beating the shit out of them to get answers.

Turn the whole fucking area into a glass palace I say with a couple well placed nukes...

I assume that you're the sort who'd campaign against the Bill of Rights because it hinders law enforcement. Just keep beating someone until they say whatever might be convenient to you. If they say contradicting things, just omit whatever you don't need. If they're innocent, keep going until they say something condemning, which is exactly why this sort of practice is useless.
Or are we still at the berserk level of nationalism here, where our system of rights and values is something that we feel no need to extend to the subhuman scum that didn't have divine fortune of having been born in the US?

Incidentally, keeping someone awake for too long can indeed be fatal. Sleep isn't just a nice-to-have. It's pretty thoroughly integrated into our genes.

 

[IronWing]

Incidentally, keeping someone alive for too long can indeed be fatal.

^^ If this wasn't a serious thread, I'd giggle at this.

 

[Nebor]

That doesn't make much sense. Obama tried to close gitmo in a better way and was stopped.

Obama has a horrible record on civil liberties but gitmo is not part of it. If you're going to criticize the guy it's important to be sure to criticize him on things he deserves it for.

I think you've got a point: It's distasteful to criticize a sitting president. People should keep their mouths shut until he's out of office.

 

[Jhhnn]

Obama is a supporter of much which has been done. He may or may not be supportive of torture- he says he's not- but then he's for closing Gitmo and people who are for that go "yay" without thinking of something very important. Gitmo is subject to US law. By moving captives to Uruguay and similar countries what happens is completely beyond court control. Absolutely anything could be done by the host nations at our bidding and if (not saying that automatically will happen) wholesale dismemberment were to occur you could never know. It's a step down in terms of accountability and oversight other than by those who control the agenda to begin with. BUT BUT BOOSH!!!

There's little difference that we can know about except for the window dressing.

cue the apologists.

The lame obfuscation, innuendo, fear mongering & apologism in that is astounding. The most recently released detainees were accepted as refugees by Uruguay, not prisoners of any sort.

That's because they never were part of the trumped up Terrarist Threat! That was determined long ago, but they've been held as prisoners in the meanwhile because of the very successful campaign of hatred & fear mongering that still haunts us to this day. They were only ever held for the purposes of domestic politics.

Your headset & that of all too many others is tribute to that.

 

[Nebor]

Yeah this. What they released is essentially the same crap that like 99% of all fraternity pledging is like. Yes if done long enough it's pretty brutal, but aside from water boarding, must of that stuff is harmless done short term.

One of the things they listed they do is put them on a tarp and basically douse them in cold water on and off again, while not being allowed to sleep, etc. When I pledged, I stood in a cold ass basement for 24hrs straight, with no sleep, all while being covered in ice cold water on and off again about every hour. I pissed myself to keep warm.

I guess though in a way this type of torture is worse than say, cutting their ears off or something. It messes with you mentally and effects your whole body. That's probably why they opt for stuff like this over traditional torture. I guess the exception would be waterboarding, which seems pretty bad.

Can confirm, I've both been subject to and carried out waterboarding, tazing, ice bathing, inversion and "cliff jumping" as part of fraternity initiation.

 

[fskimospy]

I think you've got a point: It's distasteful to criticize a sitting president. People should keep their mouths shut until he's out of office.

Nowhere did I come anywhere close to saying that.

In fact, we should be going after Obama for not attacking US security services more aggressively. We should all be able to agree that when you have services this stupid and this corrupt that they need to be gone after.

 

[z1ggy]

But you knew that you were still in control, and you knew that your life wasn't at risk. You could decide to end it whenever you wanted to. You probably weren't being threatened with execution, and I doubt there was anyone there threatening to kill your family.

These people can't just say "Ok guys, I've had enough. I'm ready to go back to my comfortable room and never do this again."
You just face the promise of doing it again in a few days, with the knowledge that you won't even have the option of being able to kill yourself to end it.

Yep, I agree. I was just kind of pointing out that this isn't exactly the crazy torture chamber that a lot of the people who rally against torture wish was found. It's stuff that a lot of people have had done to them under non life threatening circumstances, which can turn pretty crappy when done for days and days on end. I mean, I'm really not sure what's worse.. Being kept awake and made to stand while constantly being cold for 2 weeks, or having my ball sack smashed with a rubber mallet, only after all my finger nails were ripped off and both my legs broken in 4 places.

All of that sounds pretty terrible. The question becomes, what line do you walk in order to get legit information out of people you truly think are a threat and torturing people for fun/have no useful information.

 

[WelshBloke]

I didn't realize the terrorists were following US law.

Well neither are the CIA are they?

 

[rudeguy]

Well neither are the CIA are they?

Correct. That's the whole point of the CIA; they operate outside of the US mainly because what they do would be illegal here. Would arming the Crips or Bloods and training them to overthrow the government be legal or accepted here? Hell no. But that's what the CIA does every day in other countries.

The only reason this report is news is because the White House needed to take attention away from Gruber.

 

[fskimospy]

Correct. That's the whole point of the CIA; they operate outside of the US mainly because what they do would be illegal here. Would arming the Crips or Bloods and training them to overthrow the government be legal or accepted here? Hell no. But that's what the CIA does every day in other countries.

The only reason this report is news is because the White House needed to take attention away from Gruber.

You think this report wouldn't be news otherwise? Are you joking?

Also, you realize that nobody outside of the extreme right cares about Gruber, right?

 

[Nebor]

This all took place outside the United States and involved non-US citizens. The CIA can do whatever they want in those circumstances, IMO.

 

[rudeguy]

You think this report wouldn't be news otherwise? Are you joking?

Also, you realize that nobody outside of the extreme right cares about Gruber, right?

You realize that only far left morons are the ones who don't care about Gruber, right?

 

[Jhhnn]

The only reason this report is news is because the White House needed to take attention away from Gruber.

That's astoundingly stupid. You're every bit as dumb as Gruber claimed you are.

Grubergate is sheer desperation on the part of Repubs. Nobody gives a rat's ass about it other than the same fools who were enthralled by OMFG BENGHAZI!

 

[rudeguy]

That's astoundingly stupid. You're every bit as dumb as Gruber claimed you are.

Grubergate is sheer desperation on the part of Repubs. Nobody gives a rat's ass about it other than the same fools who were enthralled by OMFG BENGHAZI!

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[WelshBloke]

Can confirm, I've both been subject to and carried out waterboarding, tazing, ice bathing, inversion and "cliff jumping" as part of fraternity initiation.

I'm not sure that your voluntary sado masochistic relationship with your housemates is that relevant to a debate on state sanctioned torture.

 

[shady28]

Correct. That's the whole point of the CIA; they operate outside of the US mainly because what they do would be illegal here. Would arming the Crips or Bloods and training them to overthrow the government be legal or accepted here? Hell no. But that's what the CIA does every day in other countries.

The only reason this report is news is because the White House needed to take attention away from Gruber.

You're probably right about the political motivations of Obama, moreover I would bet that similar methods were used under his admin.

Esp with this comment :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...g-excerpts-from-the-cia-interrogation-report/

2. President Bush received his first briefing on enhanced interrogation techniques in 2006, about four years after the program started. According to CIA records, Bush expressed discomfort with an image of a detainee "chained to the ceiling, clothed in a diaper."

Followed by :
http://ccrjustice.org/bush-openly-c...prosecutions-cia-tape-destruction-why-we-care

"In his recently released memoir Decision Points, George W. Bush admitted that he enthusiastically authorized that certain detainees be waterboarded – or tortured, a crime under domestic and international law. When asked if he would authorize the torture of one detainee, former U.S. president Bush declared “Damn right!” "

This kind of garbage by Bush & Co is why I didn't vote for him (or anyone) in 2004. At that time, I was mostly pissed about how they were taking records of who checked out what books in the library with gag orders citing national security.

It's the same thing in the sense that it shows a total disregard for constitutional rights, and an abuse of power.

Obama has gone even farther with domestic spying / police state tactics as well as legislating from the oval office. We are on that slippery slope. There is no significant difference between Repubs and Dems, they are all corrupt.


That said, if the CIA operates internationally it would logically follow that they are subject to international law.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Police related abuse; it must be made public!! It must be exposed!! Drag them through the streets!!!
CIA related abuse; ,.. what are you, fucking stupid?! This can't be made public! You must not expose them!! Don't you dare drag them through the streets.

Make up you minds ladies, do you or do you not want abuse caused/coming from government agencies to be known, for the purposes of stopping said abuse?

Yes or no.

I get it, a big bad police officer gave you a ticket for going 80 mph in a 25 mph zone - and NO ONE has the right to tell you what to do,.. but, you can't turn a blind eye to one part of the government's abuse, yet butthurt rage over another part of the government's abuse.

 

[rudder]

I think you've got a point: It's distasteful to criticize a sitting president. People should keep their mouths shut until he's out of office.

Since when? January 2009?

 

[Jaskalas]

Wow, just saw an interview on CNN with former congressman Joe Walsh... what a complete asshole. Basically his view is since the "enemy" are animals we need to act like animals to defeat them. What in the holy hell is wrong with this guy? He would absolutely be a distinguished SS member had he been around at that time.

They have a simple, if not utterly stupid view.

• We're at war.
• We're going to win at any cost.

The problem is we only act that way towards our prisoners. We don't apply that principle towards actually "winning" the "war". Hell, are we even at war? Without a guiding principle and a pressing need it seems like we just torture prisoners for the fun of it.

While I stand for winning wars, I find ourselves FAR removed from actually fighting one. I therefore must oppose anyone who'd realize our fantastical delusions of "winning" on our prisoners, aka mistreating them.

 

[MrPickins]

Yep, I agree. I was just kind of pointing out that this isn't exactly the crazy torture chamber that a lot of the people who rally against torture wish was found. It's stuff that a lot of people have had done to them under non life threatening circumstances, which can turn pretty crappy when done for days and days on end. I mean, I'm really not sure what's worse.. Being kept awake and made to stand while constantly being cold for 2 weeks, or having my ball sack smashed with a rubber mallet, only after all my finger nails were ripped off and both my legs broken in 4 places.

All of that sounds pretty terrible. The question becomes, what line do you walk in order to get legit information out of people you truly think are a threat and torturing people for fun/have no useful information.

But your hazing missed a crucial part of the torture, the psychological aspect of it.

Your experiences with frat initiations are in no way comparable to what these people were put through.

 

[kage69]

Since when? January 2009?

No silly, 2000-2008. I guess you didn't notice the overwhelming support from conservatives and almost zero disagreement with Cheney/Bush in that period - only to be reversed almost completely practically the day Obama took office. The sharp turning ability of the GOP on issues foreign and domestic probably has some people in Stuttgart pretty jealous. You could fill a book with the 180s republicans took on positions they held under Cheney/Bush.

Obama has received complaints and objections from liberals since sometime in the middle of his first term, quite a different situation than the fawning asskissing DC repubs performed while rubber stamping anything Cheney and Co. had W approve. They should really do something about that. Mockery of leadership aside, it doesn't really help the popular perception of them being worthless hypocrites devoid of morals and integrity.

Nebor's quip sounds nice, it's just not really applicable to today's scene of political tribalism while its cheered on by the likes of talk radio and Fox Noise. Obama was the perfect test for that belief, and his critics failed even harder than they did when Clinton was in office. Republicans forfeited any right to speak of decorum and respect a long time ago IMO.

 

[smackababy]

They have a simple, if not utterly stupid view.

• We're at war.
• We're going to win at any cost.

The problem is we only act that way towards our prisoners. We don't apply that principle towards actually "winning" the "war". Hell, are we even at war? Without a guiding principle and a pressing need it seems like we just torture prisoners for the fun of it.

While I stand for winning wars, I find ourselves FAR removed from actually fighting one. I therefore must oppose anyone who'd realize our fantastical delusions of "winning" on our prisoners, aka mistreating them.

To be fair, if we were in a real war, winning no matter the cost is better than losing honorably. If China invaded the US tomorrow and the only way to defeat them was to torture Chinese children, using choking agents, and execute POWs, I find it hard to believe some of you would be saying "Come on guys, let's be civil. I can't be that bad to be subjugated under Chinese rule!" There are times when you have to do what it takes.

Now, I don't sympathize with the CIA in this case, as it known (by them, at least) that the tactics there were using were not effective. I'd be perfectly fine if torturing a known ISIS member gave information to stopping them. But, torturing for no reason other than to do it is pretty sick.