Can Christians Do Good For Goodness Sake?

[Grooveriding]

The only thing that needs to be respected is the right to believe complete nonsense if that's what you want to do. The beliefs themselves do not deserve any respect if they don't warrant it. Any idea is open to scrutiny. If people want to believe the mythology of goat herders who lived 2000 years ago, that's their business, they don't get to have an expectation of not having their belief system ridiculed. Believing in fairy tales is for children.

Bigotry does not apply to religion, it's a choice to believe in magic without evidence and is open to criticism. Your ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation - these are not things you choose. You don't have to laugh at someone's face and call them names, but you can certainly say what they believe is total nonsense.

It's not even a worthy subject of debate. It's as valid a belief as claiming there is a pink unicorn on the dark side of the moon farting rainbows.

 

[JSt0rm]

And how do you calculate the good believers have done? Regardless, my point is STILL that the effect of believers on the world is not open for debate so, hiding behind a philosophical argument about the existence of God is irrelevant.

how do you calculate the good that mankind has done? How are we judging good btw? The growth of the human population? The ease of modern life? Consumption? Whats "good"

 

[Moonbeam]

Isn't morality just a survival mechanism? There is no good or evil just survival mechanisms that work better than others.

I would suggest we start with the idea that there is no good or evil. The notion of a survival mechanism is a concept that is the product of thinking, just as good and evil are. So let us leave thinking behind and just perceive the world without good or evil. What do you experience? Did you ever experience or remember experiencing the utter joy as a child of being alive. God consciousness isn't an awareness of a Being out there, but the Joy of your own Being. And because it is real and the fundamental fact of our being, there will always be people who reawaken into their original state. There will always be those who long for a God and have faith because, although you can destroy being joy in a child, you can't fully erase the fact that he or she and God once shared the same conscious state. Some still love God by the certainty within them they call faith, and some hate him because their consciousness of him was taken by the ignorance of people.

 

[Sonikku]

Read this as "Can Christie do good for goodness sake" and was prepared to answer with a big fat no.

 

[Red Hawk]

Decided to peek into a religion discussion on the internet, and...hoo boy, regretting it already.

Anyways. To answer the question: Uh, yes. As much as anyone can do good for goodness' sake.

I have included a link where the Christian apologist insists that all good works done by Christians will be rewarded in Heaven. Lets think about that for a second. It is impossible for a Christian to do good for other people without storing a payment in Heaven for that good work, he cannot do good for the simple reason that he wants to help his fellow man.... it is all about him earning special status symbols for himself when he gets to Heaven. Since the Christian is only doing good work to get payments in Heaven (selfish) can his good works really be qualified as good works? Wouldn't it simply be his job? What is so outstanding about a person doing work for pay?

You've got a logical disconnect in the middle here. It's true that Christians are encouraged to do good works and that their lives on Earth will affect their lives in Heaven -- it's more of a warning than a promise of a reward or payment, though. See Matthew 25:14-30, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, and James 2:14-26. So ok, granted, Christians could do good works for the reason of what they'll receive in Heaven. But how does that mean it's the only reason? They could be doing good works for the reward in heaven and because they want to help their fellow men. These motivations are not somehow mutually exclusive.

Beyond that, I kind of fail to see where exactly the problem lies in a religion encouraging its followers to do good works. I mean, that's a good thing in general, right?

Last point: this Heaven Christians aspire to will apparently have a class system similar to that on earth with an underclass and an elite class that has more swag. So for the rest of time, those with swag can rub it in the face of those without swag, yea that sounds just dandy.

...no. In fact, Galatians 3:28 pretty directly contradicts the idea of class separation. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Bunch of alleged grown ups that still wanna believe in Santa Claus

...their lives on Earth will affect their lives in Heaven

Where?

 

[Red Hawk]

Where?

Where what? Are you asking where that's said?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Where what? Are you asking where that's said?

You spoke of a place you called "heaven". Where is it?

 

[JSt0rm]

I would suggest we start with the idea that there is no good or evil. The notion of a survival mechanism is a concept that is the product of thinking, just as good and evil are. So let us leave thinking behind and just perceive the world without good or evil. What do you experience? Did you ever experience or remember experiencing the utter joy as a child of being alive. God consciousness isn't an awareness of a Being out there, but the Joy of your own Being. And because it is real and the fundamental fact of our being, there will always be people who reawaken into their original state. There will always be those who long for a God and have faith because, although you can destroy being joy in a child, you can't fully erase the fact that he or she and God once shared the same conscious state. Some still love God by the certainty within them they call faith, and some hate him because their consciousness of him was taken by the ignorance of people.

This is good stuff.

 

[Red Hawk]

You spoke of a place you called "heaven". Where is it?

I don't know where it is, exactly. Which is kind of the whole point -- it's a place/state of existence beyond the reach of mortal people.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I don't know where it is, exactly.

Then why do you speak of it as though you do know things about it?

Which is kind of the whole point -- it's a place/state of existence beyond the reach of mortal people.

Just like a place that doesn't exist.

 

[Red Hawk]

Then why do you speak of it as though you do know things about it?

Because I know things about it other than its location?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Because I know things about it other than its location?

No, you don't.

 

[Red Hawk]

No, you don't.

Obviously that's something we disagree on. Is there some other point you were trying to make?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Obviously that's something we disagree on.

No that is something you disagree with the rest of the English-speaking world on. Knowledge is quite rigorously defined, and your beliefs do not amount to it in any objective sense. Calling your fantasies "knowledge" doesn't make them so.

Is there some other point you were trying to make?

Just that you're totally full of shit.

 

[Red Hawk]

No that is something you disagree with the rest of the English-speaking world on. Knowledge is quite rigorously defined, and your beliefs do not amount to it in any objective sense. Calling your fantasies "knowledge" doesn't make them so.

Last time I checked, a considerable portion of the world believed that Heaven existed, so...

I mean, if you're trying to make a distinction between knowledge and belief, then sure. There's a distinction.

Just that you're totally full of shit.

I'll pray for you.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Last time I checked, a considerable portion of the world believed that Heaven existed, so...

...and? What difference does that make?

I mean, if you're trying to make a distinction between knowledge and belief, then sure. There's a distinction.

No shit, Sherlock. You don't know what you have claimed to know. Ergo, you are full of shit. QED.

I'll pray for you.

Bullshit posturing. Way to be a stereotype.

 

[JSt0rm]

lol religion falls apart anytime you actually shine a light at it.

 

[Red Hawk]

Bullshit posturing. Way to be a stereotype.

Says the atheist (presumably) who started cussing out a Christian without provocation over his beliefs. Maybe look in a mirror?

Anyways, it's clear that nothing constructive will come out of continuing this "discussion" with you. I wish you the best, and I do mean that.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Says the atheist (presumably) who started cussing out a Christian without provocation over his beliefs.

Oh did I offend you, snowflake? Can I help you find a safe space?

Maybe look in a mirror?

Why should I? I'm not the one lying to other people about the veracity of my beliefs.

Anyways, it's clear that nothing constructive will come out of continuing this "discussion" with you. I wish you the best, and I do mean that.

I wish you some education, and I do mean that.

 

[Blue_Max]

All the usual marxist progressives in full force condemning how awful Christianity is...

...yet you know which religion they'll turn blue in the face screaming support for.

No hypocrisy at all. nnnNope.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Looks like somebody else is triggered now too

 

[Blue_Max]

Looks like somebody else is triggered now too

Just have yourself a warm milk and calm down.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Just have yourself a warm milk and calm down.

What are you talking about?

 

[sportage]

Not sure where the op is going with this but I've wondered about similar religious beliefs of good vs evil for the sake of righteousness.
Wondered about Christian's performing acts of evil in the name of God for an outcome that they felt justified.
Certainly terrorist believe that performing terrorist acts are driven by their religion, and will be rewarded.

In the bible Moses lead the slaves out of Egypt to wander in the desert, the masses of people living only on bread and water.
Some may remember from their bible school days that God provided loafs of bread like dew on the morning grass which the people gathered for food.
But eventually a large number of followers wanted more than just bread day in and day out, they wanted meat.
So they complained to Moses, not thankful that God was providing them with bread, instead insisting that Moses ask God for meat.
Well... God provided the meat by raining flocks of birds down from the sky.
And the people ate the meat of the birds, then those that partook of the meat fell ill all died in masses.
I believe some 25,000 of Moses followers perished, died, from eating the meat that God had made fall from the sky.
This was their punishment for defying God, for bitching about the bread that God was providing.
But God showed them.
So here we have an example of evil (punishment and death) and the wisdom of God.

So if God could do this, is it not conceivable for Christians to perform acts of evil for the sake of good?
Killing a Gay kid for being Gay? Or for stoning a woman for prostitution? Or killing a child molester, child murderer, or a soldier killing in the name of God?
Where do we draw the line?
And who would it be that should judge whether or not an act of evil against another in the name of God is to go unpunished?

I think that in the the bible it also states a parent can kill their child for disobeying the parent.
And a lot of other nasty stuff justifying murder in the name of God.
Ok, so most of this is in the old testament, but still....

If one knew that Adolf Hitler would grow and gain the power to kill millions, would his murder in the crib have been justified?
And say it was foreseen that Donald Trump would create nuclear war between the nations and cause the death of millions, would an act of evil against Trump be justified in the eyes of God?

Should Christians be allowed to perform acts of evil in the name of God for the sake of their religious belief?
When you read in the bible of the thousands that perished after questioning the wisdom of God, is it any wonder some would believe evil can be a tool used to justify righteousness?
Even for a terrorist?
People kill every day in the name of God, and often kill masses in the name of righteousness.