Can Christians Do Good For Goodness Sake?

[Cerpin Taxt]

Christians tend to be all about "the ends justify the means," which is a proper recipe for absolute horror.

Look at MagnusTheBrewer in this very thread trying to argue that we shouldn't worry whether or not Christian beliefs are true because lots of believers have done some good things.

It's an absolute travesty of anti-intellectualism, and instead of being abhorred it is rather celebrated by Christians today.

 

[Red Hawk]

Not sure where the op is going with this but I've wondered about similar religious beliefs of good vs evil for the sake of righteousness.
Wondered about Christian's performing acts of evil in the name of God for an outcome that they felt justified.
Certainly terrorist believe that performing terrorist acts are driven by their religion, and will be rewarded.

In the bible Moses lead the slaves out of Egypt to wander in the desert, the masses of people living only on bread and water.
Some may remember from their bible school days that God provided loafs of bread like dew on the morning grass which the people gathered for food.
But eventually a large number of followers wanted more than just bread day in and day out, they wanted meat.
So they complained to Moses, not thankful that God was providing them with bread, instead insisting that Moses ask God for meat.
Well... God provided the meat by raining flocks of birds down from the sky.
And the people ate the meat of the birds, then those that partook of the meat fell ill all died in masses.
I believe some 25,000 of Moses followers perished, died, from eating the meat that God had made fall from the sky.
This was their punishment for defying God, for bitching about the bread that God was providing.
But God showed them.
So here we have an example of evil (punishment and death) and the wisdom of God.

Are you talking about Exodus 16? Reading over that, it doesn't seem like anyone died.

So if God could do this, is it not conceivable for Christians to perform acts of evil for the sake of good?

Setting aside whether the act is "evil", no, God doing something does not mean it is ok for Christians to act in the same way. He is God, we are not.

Killing a Gay kid for being Gay? Or for stoning a woman for prostitution? Or killing a child molester, child murderer, or a soldier killing in the name of God?

There's actually a specific example for stoning a woman for prostitution. John 8:1-10:

1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. 3 The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. 5 In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?”6 (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. 7 When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground.

9 Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” 11 She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”

Where do we draw the line?

Strictly speaking? Like this:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you"

(Matthew 5:38-42)

And who would it be that should judge whether or not an act of evil against another in the name of God is to go unpunished?

Certainly not any of us!

“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. 3 Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces."

(Matthew 7:1-6)

 

[UglyCasanova]

...and? What difference does that make?


No shit, Sherlock. You don't know what you have claimed to know. Ergo, you are full of shit. QED.




Bullshit posturing. Way to be a stereotype.

What an absolute douchebag. Way to be a stereotype yourself.

 

[sandorski]

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How do you know he's not smarter than "God"?

 

[sandorski]

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Really? Why would "God" need to be smart?

 

[sandorski]

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I am someone who exists. I am also someone intelligent enough not to get himself banned and return repeatedly to be banned again.

 

[sandorski]

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I never claimed to not be a douchebag. Are you one?

 

[sandorski]

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I did all that? Wow, impressive.

 

[sandorski]

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ok

 

[ch33zw1z]

Lol, the bible thumpers came out to play. I quit going to church after I realized how horrible most church goers were, and then to just ask for forgiveness from time to time and all is well, what a crock.

 

[Puffnstuff]

The only thing that needs to be respected is the right to believe complete nonsense if that's what you want to do. The beliefs themselves do not deserve any respect if they don't warrant it. Any idea is open to scrutiny. If people want to believe the mythology of goat herders who lived 2000 years ago, that's their business, they don't get to have an expectation of not having their belief system ridiculed. Believing in fairy tales is for children.

Believing in Darwin's theory of evolution is even more far fetched seeing that we have not a single species in the process of undergoing an evolutionary change. Adaptation and evolution are not the same thing. Show me a pecan tree that arbitrarily decided that it wants to start growing peaches on a couple of branches and I'm all ears. Show me a fish leaving the primordial ocean to attend grade school.

Bigotry does not apply to religion, it's a choice to believe in magic without evidence and is open to criticism. Your ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation - these are not things you choose. You don't have to laugh at someone's face and call them names, but you can certainly say what they believe is total nonsense.

Bigotry is a universal bias towards any opposing view in any area or subject matter.

It's not even a worthy subject of debate. It's as valid a belief as claiming there is a pink unicorn on the dark side of the moon farting rainbows.

Planets remaining in a stable orbit just the right amount of distance from their life sustaining stars, our world being covered by 70% water to facilitate the equitable distribution of oxygen and food, a core that can counteract all of our redistribution of mass on a constant basis, no proof of evolution whatsoever. This place is physically billions of years old so I believe that sufficient time has passed to obtain evidence that would countermand the claims made by Christianity.

So if God could do this, is it not conceivable for Christians to perform acts of evil for the sake of good?
Killing a Gay kid for being Gay? Or for stoning a woman for prostitution? Or killing a child molester, child murderer, or a soldier killing in the name of God?
Where do we draw the line?
And who would it be that should judge whether or not an act of evil against another in the name of God is to go unpunished?

Hate has been a hallmark of religion since its inception. Religion has been warring against itself in the name of whatever that particular sect holds dear for many a millennia. I do not agree with the LBGT lifestyle nor do I agree with what professing Christians are doing, most of whom are just pretenders, such as hating on LBGT's or any other group that doesn't agree with them. The bible does tell Christians that God's love through them shines like a light in the darkness and that men would not understand it. If this is not the behavior you are seeing then you know them by their behavior.

I'll say it one more time, if you think that you are a Christian and you cannot confess that Jesus is God in the flesh then you do not have the spirit of God in you and are not a Christian.

Each of us has freewill to choose what we want to believe for ourselves and as such we must stand and answer for ourselves. Poking fun at the truth is easy right now while you are still drawing breath in this life but once you depart there will be no escape from where you are going and any religion that tells you otherwise is lying to you. Nobody can pray you out, no man can forgive you of your sins only God. Confess your sins to Jesus and he that is true and faithful and just will forgive you of your sins. Only God in the flesh, Jesus, has the power to forgive a man of his sins. One day when it happens and the books are opened at the Judgement Seat of Christ you will be judged and you will be reminded of just how many times you heard the gospel which you actively chose to ignore and you will remember people like me who tried to tell you so.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

What an absolute douchebag. Way to be a stereotype yourself.

Awwww your poor widdle delicate religion is so sensitive about criticisms.

If it had good answers to these questions you wouldn't have to go around clutching your pearls and shit-posting about what a big bad atheist I am.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You tend to be all about "The end justifies the means"

That's a marvelous "I know you are but what am I" argument, Socrates. What's next, "I'm rubber, you're glue"?

Yet you're not smarter than God.

Who?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Setting aside whether the act is "evil", no, God doing something does not mean it is ok for Christians to act in the same way. He is God, we are not.

Textbook moral relativism. Christians have no principles.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Believing in Darwin's theory of evolution is even more far fetched seeing that we have not a single species in the process of undergoing an evolutionary change.

Evolution operates on populations, not individuals, dumb shit. You don't believe in evolution because you are ignorant. Period.

Adaptation and evolution are not the same thing. Show me a pecan tree that arbitrarily decided that it wants to start growing peaches on a couple of branches and I'm all ears. Show me a fish leaving the primordial ocean to attend grade school.

Both of those things would invalidate the theory of evolution, but you don't understand that because you are a religious moron.

Planets remaining in a stable orbit just the right amount of distance from their life sustaining stars, our world being covered by 70% water to facilitate the equitable distribution of oxygen and food, a core that can counteract all of our redistribution of mass on a constant basis,

"OMG," says the mud puddle, "this hole perfectly fits my shape in every possible way! Surely it was created specifically for me!"

no proof of evolution whatsoever.

Yes, your keen Christian insights have never occurred to any one in any biology department at any university anywhere in the world, ever.

This place is physically billions of years old so I believe that sufficient time has passed to obtain evidence that would countermand the claims made by Christianity.

Actually I have it on good Christian authority that this place is only several thousand years old. Apparently you're not only ignorant of science, but ignorant of your own religion as well.

 

[Atreus21]

I have included a link where the Christian apologist insists that all good works done by Christians will be rewarded in Heaven. Lets think about that for a second. It is impossible for a Christian to do good for other people without storing a payment in Heaven for that good work, he cannot do good for the simple reason that he wants to help his fellow man.... it is all about him earning special status symbols for himself when he gets to Heaven.

If a Christian believes he can earn his way into heaven, he is quite mistaken. We have only one hope as hopelessly sinful and fallen beings, and that is God's mercy and grace. Christians are called to do good works to emulate Christ, not out of a selfish desire for salvation that is out of their capacity to achieve on their own. There is much biblical material to back this up.

A Christian who does good things to buy his entry into Heaven has missed the point.

Since the Christian is only doing good work to get payments in Heaven (selfish) can his good works really be qualified as good works? Wouldn't it simply be his job? What is so outstanding about a person doing work for pay?

Perhaps by this logic we shouldn't be grateful to firemen or policemen who are willing to sacrifice their lives for us for the simple reason that they are paid for their work.

Compare that to an atheist who does good work. The atheist is doing the good work for the simple fact that he wants to help his fellow man. He does not expect nor desire a reward for his good work other than the good feeling that he gets from helping those in need.

I think your impression of Christians here is mistaken. I don't think most Christians calculate the salvation-value of each good act before they undertake it. They help fellow humans for the simple fact that they are fellow humans, the same as Atheists do in your example.

Last point: this Heaven Christians aspire to will apparently have a class system similar to that on earth with an underclass and an elite class that has more swag. So for the rest of time, those with swag can rub it in the face of those without swag, yea that sounds just dandy.

No one save for God knows what awaits us in Heaven.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

If a Christian believes he can earn his way into heaven, he is quite mistaken. We have only one hope as hopelessly sinful and fallen beings, and that is God's mercy and grace. Christians are called to do good works to emulate Christ, not out of a selfish desire for salvation that is out of their capacity to achieve on their own. There is much biblical material to back this up.

A Christian who does good things to buy his entry into Heaven has missed the point.



Perhaps by this logic we shouldn't be grateful to firemen or policemen who are willing to sacrifice their lives for us for the simple reason that they are paid for their work.



I think your impression of Christians here is mistaken. I don't think most Christians calculate the salvation-value of each good act before they undertake it. They help fellow humans for the simple fact that they are fellow humans, the same as Atheists do in your example.



No one save for God knows what awaits us in Heaven.

These things may be true in Christianity.Atreus21, but they do not appear to be true in Christianity.RedHawk, nor do I reckon they are likely to hold in, say, Christianity.FredPhelps, or Christianity.PatRobertson.

So I guess thanks for declaring your personal opinions, but since they seem to lack any objective basis, they don't really mean anything.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Actually I have it on good Christian authority that this place is only several thousand years old. Apparently you're not only ignorant of science, but ignorant of your own religion as well.

Its because I take Genesis Chapter 1 at face value that I believe that combined with using critical thinking and physical evidence provided by the facts that surround me. I really feel sorry for you and people like you who are so filled with hate and bias that you attack everyone around you who holds a different view. As a matter of fact that is the very same kind of hate I see coming from organized religion.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Awwww your poor widdle delicate religion is so sensitive about criticisms.

If it had good answers to these questions you wouldn't have to go around clutching your pearls and shit-posting about what a big bad atheist I am.

I'm an atheist as well, just not a childish asshole. You're the kind of person that gives us a bad name.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Its because I take Genesis Chapter 1 at face value that I believe that combined with using critical thinking and physical evidence provided by the facts that surround me. I really feel sorry for you and people like you who are so filled with hate and bias that you attack everyone around you who holds a different view.

We don't mock you because your view is different, we mock you because your view is ignorant and completely unsupported by facts, reality, logic or reason. This isn't less filling vs tastes great. Your arguments and beliefs have all the merit of thinking that the moon is made of Miracle Whip because a goat-herder that lived 2000 years ago heard voices in his head that said so.

 

[bshole]

Its because I take Genesis Chapter 1 at face value that I believe that combined with using critical thinking and physical evidence provided by the facts that surround me. I really feel sorry for you and people like you who are so filled with hate and bias that you attack everyone around you who holds a different view. As a matter of fact that is the very same kind of hate I see coming from organized religion.

Do you believe the biblical teachings about the universe? Specifically do you believe the following:

In the creation story the heavens and the earth coexist in a physical universe. The earth sits below, covered in a little water. The rest of the water rests on a physical boundary above the earth. The stars are holes in this physical boundary through which heavenly water can fall to earth as rain. Above that is god and his angels.

This is called the Firmament, a physical, dome-shaped boundary between heaven and earth. The Firmament is central to the Noah story. Prior to the flood, it had never rained on earth. Then god opened the Firmament and flooded the earth with heavenly water.

If God the ultimate author of the Bible could screw this up so badly, what else in the Bible did he mess up on?

 

[qliveur]

I can assure you that God is real and not some invisible string pulling entity concocted by some drug addled bozo laying in the back alley between the dumpsters with a small cardboard sign begging for money.

Got any credible evidence that your god is real? Evidence that meets burden of proof?

No?

Then I can assure you that you're bat guano insane.


@Topic: In my experience every religiotard is basely dishonest. I think that stems from one's entire world view being based on a lie, or something.

 

[soulcougher73]

In Matthew 6:24 it says that a man cannot serve both God and money as he cannot serve two masters, for he will love the one and hate the other. 1st Timothy 6:10 says that the love of money is the root of all evil and these denominations that seek money and power are apostate as they've left their first love fulfilling the great falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 . Being a Christian doesn't make a person perfect as some imply for we will always wrestle with the flesh until we leave this world. For all of you who doubt the existence of your maker the moment you draw your last breath in this life and depart you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you've made a monumental mistake that cannot be reversed. I'm sure that you'll remember all of the crazies like me who tried to tell you but it was more fun to ridicule than to listen to what could've saved you.

You should let all of Joel Olsteen's followers in on this knowledge. That is a lot of fake Christians running around lol

 

[interchange]

I don't find that religion has any direct correlation with the overall actions of a person. I do find it difficult to define an act as "good" or "bad". I do find that many people need to attribute their actions to such categories and that those reasons need neither be accurate nor take into account complexity.

I think the world works differently, but many people simply don't tick that way.

 

[qliveur]

I don't find that religion has any direct correlation with the overall actions of a person. I do find it difficult to define an act as "good" or "bad". I do find that many people need to attribute their actions to such categories and that those reasons need neither be accurate nor take into account complexity.

I think the world works differently, but many people simply don't tick that way.

Um, Islam?

Pretty sure blowing up people in the name of one's imaginary friend of choice is categorically bad.