Bioware dev talks about misogyny, racism and homophobia in games

[SMOGZINN]

This isn't the case, not now. Maybe before, but certainly not now.

Yes, it is the case now. That is why we have to address it. Almost all media is still male-centric.

And this is about individual instances of art. I am not buying all of art, or the culture. I am interested in each piece of art on it's own merits, individually. I don't care if Bioware has some "all our games meet the standard gamut of politically and socially correct viewpoints!". I care if Bioware game X has a story I can relate to, understand, and engage in.

All of art (or anything else, really) is made up of that one piece you are buying right now. This is exactly like saying that you throwing your one styrofoam container out of your window does not cause a litter problem.

Your Mario example is also pretty poor. The princess being helpless is nothing more than a plot device, and it isn't even a original one at that.

Yes. That IS the problem. Women are just plot devices, and not even original ones.

what exactly would the message be?
"Women .. are so incredibly helpless ... and only a male ... can save her!"

That is it right there. That is a message that a whole lot of our media sends to women.

Women are inferior in combat situations than the equally trained male counterpart. It is biology.

I've yet to meet a woman that did not have the ability to fire a gun.

Men evolved to be the ones that were the hunters and the warriors. Men were made expendable. A single man can repopulate a village of women. A single woman cannot. Even the Olympics is proof that there is not an equal ground in competitive sports. The best men are leagues better than the best women in every single sport. Does that mean women are inferior in society? Not even close. Does that mean men are the better sex? Far from it.

But notice how all you focus on is the negative. You did not mention a single thing women are good at.

 

[Rakehellion]

This is horrible thought.. fantasy stories should be created by the artists creating what art they want to make. If the entertainment group wants to tell a story they shouldn't have to check boxes.

But they don't. They do what the suits tell them to do.

With respect.. How can males control any industry? If anything that's a more misogynistic thought as it treats the women as if they're powerless to make their own games.

So you're saying people who aren't rich should just get off their asses and start being rich. Not quite that simple.

The reality is barrier entry to the market is low, so anyone that wants to make games can.

This is not true. Games still cost millions of dollars to make.

Oh, you meant indie games? Yes, those are the only ones who don't rehash the same crap over and over. And those still cost tens of thousands of dollars that most people don't have lying around.

 

[Skel]

But they don't. They do what the suits tell them to do.



So you're saying people who aren't rich should just get off their asses and start being rich. Not quite that simple.

Of course it's not.. but it's a cop out to say that it can't be done. A lot of rich people became rich because they worked at it.

This is not true. Games still cost millions of dollars to make.

Oh, you meant indie games? Yes, those are the only ones who don't rehash the same crap over and over. And those still cost tens of thousands of dollars that most people don't have lying around.

Bullshit.. a simple PC can make a game. It's a cop out to say that it can't be done because they don't have Big Dev's budget. If you're still insisting that Big Dev must be the ones to fix this issue, I again point out that Big Dev keeps milking the blood out of the same games over and over and over again. Expecting them to do something spmewhat new that follows the same formula is unrealistic, going that far is a pipe dream.

 

[Rakehellion]

The real issue is that in a lot of the most popular games, women would be considered inferior. Look at the military shooters. Women are inferior in combat situations than the equally trained male counterpart. It is biology. Men evolved to be the ones that were the hunters and the warriors. Men were made expendable. A single man can repopulate a village of women. A single woman cannot. Even the Olympics is proof that there is not an equal ground in competitive sports. The best men are leagues better than the best women in every single sport. Does that mean women are inferior in society? Not even close. Does that mean men are the better sex? Far from it.

This isn't 4000 BC anymore so that entire argument is nonsense. We have technology now.

Also, we're talking about fiction, where a guy drives a giant mech, fires a railgun, and teleports across the galaxy, but it's too far into the realm of disbelief to put a woman in the same role. That's just plain ol' sexism.

 

[Rakehellion]

Of course it's not.. but it's a cop out to say that it can't be done. A lot of rich people became rich because they worked at it.

Not everyone wants to be rich. Some people just want to be heard.

Bullshit.. a simple PC can make a game. It's a cop out to say that it can't be done because they don't have Big Dev's budget.

I already mentioned indie games, sugartits.

 

[Skel]

This isn't 4000 BC anymore so that entire argument is nonsense. We have technology now.

Totally agree with you here...

Also, we're talking about fiction, where a guy drives a giant mech, fires a railgun, and teleports across the galaxy, but it's too far into the realm of disbelief to put a woman in the same role. That's just plain ol' sexism.

Annnnd then you lose me.. It's not sexism.. it's either a creator wanting to tell a tale and using what he knows/wants, or it's a company attempting to hit the widest of it's targeted demographic... which in video games is that young male.

 

[Skel]

Not everyone wants to be rich. Some people just want to be heard.



I already mentioned indie games, sugartits.

OK.. so because Big Dev isn't going "What kind of game does this small group want to see" the entire machine is broken. Indy games aren't good enough, so it's got to be a huge big budget game in order to make that group happy. Good thing not everyone wants to be rich, that frees you up from having to worry about demographics and all those other points in being successful at business.

 

[smackababy]

Yes. That IS the problem. Women are just plot devices, and not even original ones.


That is it right there. That is a message that a whole lot of our media sends to women..

Here is a test: let's replace princess with prince. Does the story or plot change? No? Then how is it disparaging towards women? Let's say Mario contains zero women, would that be fine? Of course not, women would be upset they aren't represented at all! So, let's make Mario a women and Peach a prince. Well, gay and lesbian groups are upset because they aren't represented either! Okay, so Mario is now a women and Peach can say, but it can't be that Bowser renders her helpless, let's just say she come down with the flu and Mario (now a lesbian girl version) has to rush to each Castle looking for a cure!

Should we do that for everything?

 

[SMOGZINN]

With respect.. How can males control any industry?

Because we start when they are children. We teach women from birth that they are inferior to men in these categories. Just look at smackababy's the post. He didn't specifically mention math, computers, and science but he might as well have.

The reality is barrier entry to the market is low, so anyone that wants to make games can.

The barrier for entry is very low for you. For someone that has been discouraged from doing things more complex then my little pony adventures with computers have a much higher bar for entry.

This is horrible thought.. fantasy stories should be created by the artists creating what art they want to make. If the entertainment group wants to tell a story they shouldn't have to check boxes.

It is only horrible to you because you like your station of privilege. I never said to check boxes, I said to think about your story and WHY it is male-centric. Is it really important to be male-centric? Maybe if that is all you have to write about you shouldn't be writing at all.

Prize to be won is a viewpoint, but I always thought Mario was rescuing the Princess from Bowser.

Bowser and Mario are viaing for the Princess, that makes her a prize to be won. In the same way that when two countries go to war the land they fight over is the prize to be won.

Is she unable to fight because she's a woman, or because she's a royal that's never had to exert herself ever?

Does it matter if you are a girl seeing Princess Peach? Either way you are helpless.

Bullshit.. Every woman that has ever talked about Math and Science have all said they hated it because it was dry and uninteresting to them. It's not a question of PR. I don't care for them either, does that mean I wasn't properly marketed to?

You really think that it has nothing to do with the fact that as children they were given dolls and play houses while boys were giving chemistry sets and model rockets? You don't think that informs their oppressions on what is 'interesting' and what is 'dry'? Or do you think that women are naturally not interesting in things like math and science? Women make up 55% of college students but only 18% of math and science degrees go to women. Do you think that men are really 82% better at math and science then women?

I know you're not talking to me, but I do want to say again, if someone wants to make art, they should. Be it a video game or a comic, or a movie or whatever they should. To act like they can't because Big Dev isn't doing it is a cop out.

That is not what I was saying. I was saying that to tell women that it is wrong to view art as a comment on women is just as wrong as it is to tell men that they can't view art as a comment on men. Art talks to everyone in their own language, and you can't tell one group that their view of art is wrong.

If I need to make sure I have a woman to get that viewpoint doesn't that put me in the misogynistic protector mode? If I can't judge them upon their own abilities doesn't that make me a flawed person?

No. It is misogynistic when you tell women what their viewpoint should be. Asking them for input concerning their viewpoint is not. You are then not protecting them, you are treating them as an equal.

 

[Blue_Max]

 

[SMOGZINN]

Here is a test: let's replace princess with prince. Does the story or plot change? No? Then how is it disparaging towards women? Let's say Mario contains zero women, would that be fine? Of course not, women would be upset they aren't represented at all! So, let's make Mario a women and Peach a prince. Well, gay and lesbian groups are upset because they aren't represented either! Okay, so Mario is now a women and Peach can say, but it can't be that Bowser renders her helpless, let's just say she come down with the flu and Mario (now a lesbian girl version) has to rush to each Castle looking for a cure!

Should we do that for everything?

So, you are saying that since you can't please everyone all the time that makes it okay to be misogynistic? Good reply.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You know when I know I've won the argument?

 

[Blue_Max]

You know when I know I've won the argument?

You won something?? Some of us just know it's pointless to argue with a zealot who will never change their opinion on a subject. Ever.

Evv-err.

This is the part where many in your position will run to a mod, crying crocodile tears about how offended and frightened they are about those bad, bad men making her feel threatened, and how they should be punished. Pain by proxy. "That'll teach them to disagree with me!"

 

[smackababy]

So, you are saying that since you can't please everyone all the time that makes it okay to be misogynistic? Good reply.

What I am saying is that sometimes, a plot device is simply that. There is no deeper meaning. Should we analyze why Mario feels it is okay to kill all the turtles he finds?

If you want to find the "faults" in everything, go right ahead. I will be busy enjoying stomping some turtles and being frustrated my princess is in other castle. And the only thing I will take away from it is: time spent having fun and that Bowser guy sure is a dick.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You won something?? Some of us just know it's pointless to argue with a zealot who will never change their opinion on a subject. Ever.

Evv-err.

This is the part where many in your position will run to a mod, crying crocodile tears about how offended and frightened they are about those bad, bad men making her feel threatened, and how they should be punished. Pain by proxy. "That'll teach them to disagree with me!"

I have never stooped to name calling or ad hominin attacks, I have tried to avoid strawmen and other fallacious arguments. My arguments are fair and reasonable directly addressing the points raised.

You on the other hand have done the internet equavelant of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling, 'na-na-na, I'm not listening to you'. Then called me a poopy head.
I have no need for the mods. You have made your stance very clear.

 

[Blue_Max]

I have never stooped to name calling or ad hominin attacks, I have tried to avoid strawmen and other fallacious arguments. My arguments are fair and reasonable directly addressing the points raised.

You on the other hand have done the internet equavelant of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling, 'na-na-na, I'm not listening to you'. Then called me a poopy head.
I have no need for the mods. You have made your stance very clear.

Riiiiight.

 

[Aikouka]

I think people tend to overreact a bit too much, and it's not just video games... it's all of our media. When Harold Ramis died, it got me thinking about the movie Ghostbusters. If you look at that IMDB link, you'll find that it's rated PG. The movie uses words like "dick" and I'm pretty sure it has a few swear words too, but apparently, that was okay! I know I saw the movie when I was young, and my parents didn't object to it. I guarantee that Ghostbusters would get a PG-13 rating if it were to go through the MPAA today.

I found that odd because we seem to be pushing edgier and edgier content on TV (I remember that hullabaloo over a decade ago about them showing bare ass on Ally McBeal), but we've gotten much more up-in-arms or politically correct over what's considered bad. I recall being interested in the game Yaiba, because it looked like a crazy, beat-the-crap-out-of-everything game. That game got slammed upon release. A lot of reviews called it terribly misogynistic, but I watched TotalBiscuit stream the game for two hours, and honestly... I'm bewildered. Apart from a girl showing off cleavage with a partially-unbuttoned top, and a few off-color, lewd remarks coming from the main "hero", that's about it. Sure, they were definitely pandering to the horny guys with the excessive cleavage, but it didn't seem that bad. It definitely wasn't DoA with the jiggle physics.

I guess I'm just surprised that there was such an outrage over it.

 

[SMOGZINN]

What I am saying is that sometimes, a plot device is simply that. There is no deeper meaning.

I completely agree. A plot device often has no deeper meaning. But it sends a message anyway.
Throwing a styrofoam container out the window does not mean you want to destroy the environment, but it makes the Indian cry anyway. (yes, I'm using the indian analogy purposely because it is a clear example of what I'm talking about.)

If you want to find the "faults" in everything, go right ahead. I will be busy enjoying stomping some turtles and being frustrated my princess is in other castle. And the only thing I will take away from it is: time spent having fun and that Bowser guy sure is a dick.

I don't go around finding the faults in everything, you don't see me in the Diablo2 thread talking about how the sorceress is a sexist character designed to appeal to a adolescent male and NOT a character for female gamers to identify with. But here we are specifically talking about the issues of white heterosexual male bias in video games, so I think it is fair to point out how ubiquitous it is.

 

[cmdrdredd]

This isn't 4000 BC anymore so that entire argument is nonsense. We have technology now.

Also, we're talking about fiction, where a guy drives a giant mech, fires a railgun, and teleports across the galaxy, but it's too far into the realm of disbelief to put a woman in the same role. That's just plain ol' sexism.

It's only sexism because you want to believe it is.

Commanders of battleships are always Men, so it stands to reason that the captain in the future would also be portrayed as a Man. It has nothing to do with 4000BC and everything to do with making something relatable.

 

[Carfax83]

This isn't 4000 BC anymore so that entire argument is nonsense. We have technology now.

I can tell you've never been in the Military, and I can also tell you don't know jack sh!t about the Military, or Military history..

 

[smackababy]

I completely agree. A plot device often has no deeper meaning. But it sends a message anyway.
Throwing a styrofoam container out the window does not mean you want to destroy the environment, but it makes the Indian cry anyway. (yes, I'm using the indian analogy purposely because it is a clear example of what I'm talking about.)

The real problem with the analogy is that you are equating a game having a message that might, if you stretch it a long way, be objection with an act that is no way productive to anything. Regardless, of the fact that rather than throw a styrofoam cup out the winder, instead I throw it in a plastic bag, that is then driven by a large truck to a designated pit to be thrown in.

Let's really examine Mario. Does it follow a trope of sexual superiority? Or, is it the age old telling of a hero overcoming evil to save his / her love interested from said evil? The fact that Mario is a male and Peach is female is simply due to that fact that in 1986, the female gamer demographic wasn't even a myth yet. Why would Nintendo create a story marketed toward a non existent demographic? The fact that it remains relevant in today's gaming is simply due to how it evolved into a ubiquitous mascot for their platform.

And, this perceived bias only exists in certain genres (some of which has merit, such as military).

 

[BSim500]

Load of fuss over nothing. NOLF 1 & 2 were awesome. Portal, Contrast, Beyond: Two Souls, Blackwell Legacy, Remember Me, Gone Home, Memoria, Broken Age, etc, don't even scratch the surface - there's literally hundreds of games with playable female lead characters from 1980's Gauntlet on a Commodore 64 / ZX Spectrum to today's AAA titles:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_featuring_female_protagonists
http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/3015-2287/

Plus hundreds more flash / hidden object / mystery style games with female leads (Diner Dash, Nancy Drew, etc). Original Alone in the Dark (1992) had a male/female choice. Paperboy 2 (1991) was also "Papergirl". Thief 2 had female guards / mechanists, etc. Thief 2X had a female lead (Zaya) fully voiced by amateur TTLG forum member April Lurty (who did a damn fine job for a total amateur). There's never been more games with playable females than today. It sounds like what I've seen in similar articles - someone looks up the top 5 games, sees Battlefield 4 and Crysis 3, then declares them to be the "be all and end all of gaming and everyone who plays them a woman hating pig" :twisted: (usually as tabloid "clickbait")...

As for sex / race, most RPG's have had flexible char creation for decades. In Neverwinter Nights char creation "appearance tab", you could pick about 96 different skin colors ranging from black, white & yellow to Avatar blue, elf green & flourescent pink to blood red & death grey (great for Blackguard & Pale Master builds)... They even had stripey skin ones. Maybe they should have removed the mod-able angel & devil wings so as to not 'offend' die-hard atheists? Most RTS "God in the sky" style games (Age of Empires, Rise of Nations, etc) you're both sex-less and race-less anyway.

As for "evil white male" - the reason why most Western games are "white & male" is because that's the typical demographics in North America, Europe & Russia where most studio's are based. In other shocking news, most Japanese / Korean RPG's contain, um, predominantly Japanese / Korean looking characters, whilst African games developer Maliyo's concept art consists predominantly of blacks with one token white... Is that "racism"? No, just a natural cultural reflection of the location of where the development is based.

And what's a gay character supposed to look / talk like in a typical bedroom-less fast-action combat-based computer game? Unless it's a plot heavy RPG that specifically involves romance / sex as part of a deep plot, I can't see five minute "Jonathan, I have something to tell you..." cutscenes in between rocket jumps in Quake 3 working out too well... :biggrin: If it's included as a key part of the plot by the actual writers - fair enough - but it it's demanded by developers solely to "tick the right social commentary boxes", then the game usually results in a flop due the way "social issues" end up so lamely & artificially portrayed, they result in cheesy tokenism that often manages to patronize everyone.

 

[BoberFett]

My Fallout 3 character was a female. How weird, that shouldn't have been possible, what with all the misogyny.

 

[BoberFett]

It is only horrible to you because you like your station of privilege. I never said to check boxes, I said to think about your story and WHY it is male-centric. Is it really important to be male-centric? Maybe if that is all you have to write about you shouldn't be writing at all.

Wanna know how I know you're an idiot?

 

[Skel]

Because we start when they are children. We teach women from birth that they are inferior to men in these categories. Just look at smackababy's the post. He didn't specifically mention math, computers, and science but he might as well have.

I think that's some reaching. We teach (or punish depending on how much you like the subjects) ALL kids math and science in schools. Some people gravitate to them, others do not. If it was as simple as not playing with dolls to make people interested in those subjects then almost all boys would like them. The reality is myself and a ton of other men don't like those subjects. Does that mean somehow we were raised wrong? No, it just means we have different interests. Just like if it was as simple as dolls, no woman would be interested in them.

The barrier for entry is very low for you. For someone that has been discouraged from doing things more complex then my little pony adventures with computers have a much higher bar for entry.

Again, you're the one with the seriously twisted views on women if you think that they're discouraged from complex things. Unless you're talking about very young kids, which again isn't a girl only thing.. it's an age thing.

It is only horrible to you because you like your station of privilege. I never said to check boxes, I said to think about your story and WHY it is male-centric. Is it really important to be male-centric? Maybe if that is all you have to write about you shouldn't be writing at all.

You're full of crap here. I don't have a station of privilege. What I do have is a health respect for the artist process, something you show little knowledge of. People create what they want, and should NEVER be forced to redo something just to make it diverse. No artist I've ever heard of would want that. You think Spike Lee goes, "Crap, better change this guy to a white person.." No, because he's creating what he wants.

Bowser and Mario are viaing for the Princess, that makes her a prize to be won. In the same way that when two countries go to war the land they fight over is the prize to be won.

Does it matter if you are a girl seeing Princess Peach? Either way you are helpless.

Total bullshit. But as you love to throw away stuff to fix your misogynistic white knight narrative, I still ask you how do you know it's over a woman. For all you know (there's no real back story in that game) Bowser kidnapped her because she's royalty. In fact there's no talk of anyone above her, so for all anyone knows it's like kidnapping the President.

You really think that it has nothing to do with the fact that as children they were given dolls and play houses while boys were giving chemistry sets and model rockets? You don't think that informs their oppressions on what is 'interesting' and what is 'dry'? Or do you think that women are naturally not interesting in things like math and science? Women make up 55% of college students but only 18% of math and science degrees go to women. Do you think that men are really 82% better at math and science then women?

Again.. twisted views on how people are raised to fit your narrative. ALL kids are taught in school, some people like things some don't. I was given model rockets and chemistry sets and I still think the subjects are boring. I personally know women who work in both computers and one at Raytheon creating rockets. Both of them grew up playing with dolls (one still has them) but both ended up loving the fields you keep saying they don't.

That is not what I was saying. I was saying that to tell women that it is wrong to view art as a comment on women is just as wrong as it is to tell men that they can't view art as a comment on men. Art talks to everyone in their own language, and you can't tell one group that their view of art is wrong.

There's some double talking bullshit. You're telling everyone that the male version of art is wrong.

No. It is misogynistic when you tell women what their viewpoint should be. Asking them for input concerning their viewpoint is not. You are then not protecting them, you are treating them as an equal.

I was responding to the idea that we should hire women because they were women. You said it was a good idea because they brought a different viewpoint. I say you're the worst kind of misogynist because you think they shouldn't be hired based upon their work.