Bioware dev talks about misogyny, racism and homophobia in games

[Stringjam]

The issue is that the majority of people who own the companies are white males.

There is nothing keeping "minorities" (a strange phrase, as Caucasians are far from the most populous race, internationally) from developing games. If you can afford $9.99 a month, you have access to one of the best AAA game engines on the market.

But I mentioned earlier....the world is full of people who bitch, but not nearly as many who are willing to create.

 

[Mondozei]

Manveer Heir is just a PC loon who thinks games should ooze propaganda. He wants games were soldiers come out as gay to fellow soldiers. What a dumb idea for a game. Misogny is pretty funny since every game I play has a super duper battle chica who is captain of everything and kicks everyones butt - a type of girl that doesn't exist in real life.

There are no women kicking butt in men's sports. Michelle Wie was a much hyped flop and Danica Patrick is still trying to win something. But in games women are all over the place kicking everyone's butt - its psychotic.

Homophobia doesn't actually exist. Studies show peoples reaction to homosexuality is disgust and not fear. In any case a REAL phobia is a disorder a person has no control over. Yet people with the imagined homophobia are attacked as if they are making choices. The whole "phobia" thing makes no sense. In truth its just a political device meant to shame people into compliance.

As for racism, Manveer Heir is Indian and resented growing up in non-Indian society. Solution to that one is simple and it doesn't include remaking the whole US gaming industry. Do games and media in India all have white central characters? I doubt it - and I doubt Heir would complain about racism in India . This guy is just a whiny pest who is probably racist himself. He should go to India and complain about lack of white main characters in Bollywood to get some cred.

Would Hier be on the barricades in India? Probably not. Did he resent growing up in America? Probably.


But the fact remains that 50% of all people in 'Murica are non-white under the age of 18 if you don't count Arabs, Central Asians, Persians etc(who are all lumped into the white category today).

Gaming today is no longer a subculture. It is a central part of mainstream culture. It is no longer the same stigma as it used to be unless someones games for 8+ hours a day.(remember the average American watchrs 5 hours of TV every day).

So it has to be more representative. And it is, there is a vast difference today from the early 2000s and this will continue unabated.

Frankly, a bigger issue in games is lack of gay characters. There are fewer non-white and non-male characters, but not even close to the total dearth of gay characters.

 

[Mondozei]

There is nothing keeping "minorities" (a strange phrase, as Caucasians are far from the most populous race, internationally) from developing games. If you can afford $9.99 a month, you have access to one of the best AAA game engines on the market.

But I mentioned earlier....the world is full of people who bitch, but not nearly as many who are willing to create.

Some people are just uncomfortable with white people and Rakehelion is one of them(some white people are also uncomfortable with their own race, and/or self-hating)

To add to your point, starting a game company today is easier than ever, just look at the explosion of indie games. There are plenty of 2 man studios today with virtually no budget and no connections who make great indie games.

In the past, it was much harder unless you didnt join a big company, but today you can just start from scratch with no budget, a lot of coding lessons is on the internet and Steam fixes a lot of hassles with distribution for you.

No excuses left.

 

[smackababy]

So, basically, Bioware is admitting that they are spending their time being "socially conscious" rather than spending it making good, story driven games.

"Our game is almost finished, let's go over the minority check list and make sure we got everything! Gay character? Check. Black guy who doesn't die? Check. Female Asian who isn't a loli? Hmm... better force in another main character and have it negatively effect the story. Oh, and about that grey area choice, let's just make them both as black as possible, that way the player is right no matter which choice he makes; eliminating either one will be good, because they are both awful!"

 

[BoberFett]

Bioware has handled race, sex, and orientation extremely ham-handedly from what I've seen. Hardly the people to be lecturing others.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I believe he is saying that stereotypes exist for a reason, and it's true.

Stereotypes exist to turn people into 'other' so that it is easy to disenfranchise them. It is a way of the current powers that be to maintain the status quo in the face of a changing demographic.
If you don't believe this just go back about a hundred years and read about the stereotypes of the Irish in which Irish women were "reckless breeders" and the men were "always drunk, eternally fighting, lazy, and shiftless". Or go back just a little less and read about the Stereotypes of the Italians who are portrayed as violent criminals and sociopaths (a stereotype that holds on even today, it is a common TV trope for all violent criminals to be of Italian decent.) I could keep going as each wave of immigrant has it's own stereotype, almost all very similar, mainly portraying them as lazy and stupid or violent and dangerous, or all four.

What I don't like about this current trend of trying to force these culture issues into games is that it comes across just like it is -FORCED.

I think it is more about growing the market then some political activism. I think that you have groups that want to participate in this entertainment medium that won't because they feel the medium does not want them. Which is due to the medium pandering to the prejudices of their current primary audience in order to generate easy sells while perhaps unintentionally disenfranchising everyone else.

I am a white, heterosexual male. If I were going to write a story (or develop a game), it would be from MY perspective. I have no idea what it is like to be a lesbian, hispanic girl, so it would be inane for me to try to write or develop something from that perspective and expect it not to be garbage.

And that is the real problem. They don't need more games that have minorities in them, they need more minorities working in the industry. Do that and the games will follow as people write stories, and make art that they identify with.

If any group wants to get their perspective across in entertainment, they should just stop bitching and start creating. The former group always seems vastly outnumber the latter. Create or GTFO.

You have to notice that this is a bit of a chicken and the egg problem. To write good games about minorities we need to get minorities interested in gaming which will happen when we have good games about minorities.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Wow I'm so glad I read this stuff before I pre-ordered goat simulator. The developer doesn't give equal attention to boy and girl goats. I don't think my goat can get the ghey so that really sucks. Also the goat is in such a pale suburb wrecking pasty parties. I don't think that's sensitive to my new-found complexities.

 

[finglobes]

"Would Hier be on the barricades in India? Probably not. Did he resent growing up in America? Probably.

But the fact remains that 50% of all people in 'Murica are non-white under the age of 18 if you don't count Arabs, Central Asians, Persians etc(who are all lumped into the white category today).

So it has to be more representative. And it is, there is a vast difference today from the early 2000s and this will continue unabated.

Frankly, a bigger issue in games is lack of gay characters. There are fewer non-white and non-male characters, but not even close to the total dearth of gay characters."




Heir wrote about his youth in Maryland and he resented a lot of it. He deffo has a chip on his shoulder. As Is aid I am sure he resents white people while complaining about racism.

As for percentage of non whites under 18 they are not a uniform group. A lot of Hispanics broke in. We had an invasion basically so there is no need to cater to them. Black people most of all resent them so not all "minorities" are not riding the happy bus together. A black main character makes sense in a US game. A Mexican or Indian does not. Of course many games let you be what you want including a pink wood elf. Plus most gamers are over 25 and make good money. I am sure I can guess the racial demographics of say Madden vs Skyrim

How are the game companies in Mexico or India doing? Shouldn't they be making games with such Mexican or Indian characters ? Why do all the whiners from other places keep wanting to change America to fit their painful psychological issues? I am sorry their gaming biz is no good but they can just stick all the complaints because I have zero sympathy. People really need to stop paying attention to foreign-ish racists screaming racism. There's nothing nice about this Hier fellow at all

 

[PrincessFrosty]

We must reject stereotypes in games.

No, we MUST do nothing.

Find and play games you like, if you want your lead character to be a flamboyant gay character who goes around defeating patriarchy or something then buy and support those games, if they don't exist and you want to play them, throw up a kickstarter and help build one.

The world of games is a free market, people are free to build whatever they want, and people are free to buy and support whatever they want, the primary demographics don't appear to particularly care for LGBT type characters when it comes to sales, if you want to throw yourself out there and hamper your sales by appealing to a smaller subset of people, be my guest.

But don't take to kindly to other people telling us what we must do, just in order to make them feel better. That guy MUST go jump off a cliff, ya see how that works?

 

[Blue_Max]

No, we MUST do nothing.
...
But don't take to kindly to other people telling us what we must do, just in order to make them feel better. That guy MUST go jump off a cliff, ya see how that works?

THANK you!!!

So, basically, Bioware is admitting that they are spending their time being "socially conscious" rather than spending it making good, story driven games.

"Our game is almost finished, let's go over the minority check list and make sure we got everything! Gay character? Check. Black guy who doesn't die? Check. Female Asian who isn't a loli? Hmm... better force in another main character and have it negatively effect the story. Oh, and about that grey area choice, let's just make them both as black as possible, that way the player is right no matter which choice he makes; eliminating either one will be good, because they are both awful!"

Don't forget it HAAAASSSssss to pass the Bechdel test. Make two important female characters, make sure they talk together about something important - not men. Heh... I'd love to see something where that makes NO sense at all, like you were stranded on an island with 3 other men, then all of a sudden two women break into the scene, talk about politics to each other, then magically disappear. [Game dev:] "There. Now we'll pass the stupid Bechdel test, despite being stranded on an island with no women for hundreds of miles." :twisted:

I sure hope this doesn't ruin Fallout 4.

 

[Blue_Max]

double post

 

[SMOGZINN]

"There. Now we'll pass the stupid Bechdel test, despite being stranded on an island with no women for hundreds of miles." :twisted:

I sure hope this doesn't ruin Fallout 4.

The point of the Bechdel test is that women are badly under represented in media, and when they are represented they are not represented as fully capable people, but as objects for the male characters to do something with.

Throwing in a few random women to have a random conversation does not really pass the Bechdel test. Maybe instead you should think about why you did not include any women in your script? That is the real point of the test, to make people think about their bias.

 

[shortylickens]

What? Is there a point here aside from you being a creep? Does it matter if the protagonist of a game is attractive? It's not like the same isn't true for men in games, and I don't see you commenting dismissively that they're just giant hunks of muscular man meat.

No one has been complaining about the lack of hunks.

 

[ArenCordial]

I find this amusing especially considering how BioWare basically objectified Aribeth, Morrigan, Miranda, Isabella and lets not forget turning EDI into the sex bot complete with a camel toe.

Anyone else think this is because EA is up for worst company in America again?

If my memory serves me right the last time they won the following PR statement tried to blame part of it on intolerant gamers who sent them hate mail for their support of LGBT characters.

 

[Rakehellion]

There is nothing keeping "minorities" (a strange phrase, as Caucasians are far from the most populous race, internationally) from developing games.

Most of the games played in America are made by American companies. Other countries have their own minorities.

And there are lots of games created by non-whites and women. Developers shouldn't make games that appeal to only a small demographic.

If you can afford $9.99 a month, you have access to one of the best AAA game engines on the market.

You'll also need a few hundred thousand more dollars to hire artists and engineers to make use of it.

But I mentioned earlier....the world is full of people who bitch, but not nearly as many who are willing to create.

Like the one who created this thread.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I find this amusing especially considering how BioWare basically objectified Aribeth, Morrigan, Miranda, Isabella and lets not forget turning EDI into the sex bot complete with a camel toe.

Anyone else think this is because EA is up for worst company in America again?

If my memory serves me right the last time they won the following PR statement tried to blame part of it on intolerant gamers who sent them hate mail for their support of LGBT characters.

Lol...I forgot about that excuse. I dunno if that's it...I think this is just some joker who thinks his opinion matters on a controversial subject and will make people think he is a peacemaker and great person.

 

[Rakehellion]

Some people are just uncomfortable with white people and Rakehelion is one of them(some white people are also uncomfortable with their own race, and/or self-hating)

I think it's incredibly boring that every video game protagonist is six feet tall, muscular, dark hair, white skin but tanned, with American-looking facial features, a crew cut, and a 5 o'clock shadow. That's a very, very specific descriptor but appears so often it just makes want to vomit. Superman is my least favorite comic book character.

The Witcher is technically white, but he's an exception because AT LEAST HE DOESN'T HAVE A DAMNED CREW CUT!

You can have an alien with twelve eyes and tentacles in a game, but you can't even change a guy's hairstyle! Come on. That's just stupid.

 

[Rakehellion]

In Japan the only games that are selling in large numbers involve bimbo chicks who dress like trollops. So thats what they keep making.

Japan has like a 1% minority population but even they mixed up the skin tones!

 

[smackababy]

I think it's incredibly boring that every video game protagonist is six feet tall, muscular, dark hair, white skin but tanned, with American-looking facial features, a crew cut, and a 5 o'clock shadow. That's a very, very specific descriptor but appears so often it just makes want to vomit. Superman is my least favorite comic book character.

The Witcher is technically white, but he's an exception because AT LEAST HE DOESN'T HAVE A DAMNED CREW CUT!

You can have an alien with twelve eyes and tentacles in a game, but you can't even change a guy's hairstyle! Come on. That's just stupid.

Wtf are you on about, medium rare? Let's look at the top selling games of last year.

GTA V: white stereo type not found.
COD Ghosts: military, so they are muscular and have crew cuts, but I'm sure there are minorities.
Fifa: I don't even think there are white people in this game, and if they are, they certainly aren't starters.
Pokemon: nope
Assassin's Creed: I hardly think this fits.
The Last of Us: okay, MAYBE, but you're pushing it.
Animal Crossing: lol not even close
Tomb Raider: the exact opposite
Monster Hunter IV: nope
Bioshock Infinite: maybe, but more in a hippy dippy kind of way AND racial themes were a part of this game, so it made sense for your character to blend in.

 

[smackababy]

Japan has like a 1% minority population but even they mixed up the skin tones!

Japanese games are incredibly racist. Look at characters from Street Fighter: basically every single one that isn't Japanese is a stereo type of that region.

 

[Rakehellion]

I am a white, heterosexual male. If I were going to write a story (or develop a game), it would be from MY perspective. I have no idea what it is like to be a lesbian, hispanic girl, so it would be inane for me to try to write or develop something from that perspective and expect it not to be garbage.

Games are made by teams of hundreds of people. I'm sure one or two of them could offer insight.

I think that the Lisbeth Salander character from "The girl with the Dragon Tatoo" is a good example of how a non hetero normative character can be an interesting heroine.

Foreign directors are the only ones who don't rehash the same crap over and over.

 

[Rakehellion]

When was the last time you saw a farming sim? Does that mean those kids who dream of being farmers aren’t properly represented?

There's a big different between creating and entirely new genre and changing a character's hue or rewriting a few lines of dialogue.

 

[BoberFett]

I think it's incredibly boring that every video game protagonist is six feet tall, muscular, dark hair, white skin but tanned, with American-looking facial features, a crew cut, and a 5 o'clock shadow. That's a very, very specific descriptor but appears so often it just makes want to vomit. Superman is my least favorite comic book character.

The Witcher is technically white, but he's an exception because AT LEAST HE DOESN'T HAVE A DAMNED CREW CUT!

You can have an alien with twelve eyes and tentacles in a game, but you can't even change a guy's hairstyle! Come on. That's just stupid.

Meh, my characters in FO3 was a woman, because that's what I chose. My Saints Row 2 character was Asian. I just started a new character in Amalur Reckoning (yes, I actually liked that game) and he's black.

A lot of games now let you choose your character. Seems to me this is a non-issue.

 

[Stringjam]

You'll also need a few hundred thousand more dollars to hire artists and engineers to make use of it.

I still don't understand the relevance here. I keep hearing comments like "there needs to be more minorities involved in the industry."

Well, that is their responsibility. It really isn't even true. If you go over to Polycount or CryDev (especially), you'll see that U.S. membership is a minority, and English is a second language to the majority of the membership.

There are so many obstacles removed from the creative process now. The tools are there and are more accessible than ever before. Skilled labor is available all over the globe, and basically anybody can afford a license now to the best engines on the market.

The excuses are gone. If you have the desire and work ethic, you can make it happen.

I think what certain groups / people are really saying is they want publishers to FORCE developers into making things their way, and IMO, that is just straight up bully tactics.

If you have a great idea that enough people want, you will get funding. Kickstarter has proven that.

 

[thedosbox]

The world of games is a free market, people are free to build whatever they want

And yet the Bioware guy is being called racist (among other things) when his studio chooses to build what they want.

Hypocrisy doesn't even begin to describe the positions taken up by various people in this thread.