Bioware dev talks about misogyny, racism and homophobia in games

[motsm]

And yet the Bioware guy is being called racist (among other things) when his studio chooses to build what they want.

Hypocrisy doesn't even begin to describe the positions taken up by various people in this thread.

EVERYTHING is "racist" these days, so it doesn't really matter what they do.

 

[Red Storm]

And yet the Bioware guy is being called racist (among other things) when his studio chooses to build what they want.

Hypocrisy doesn't even begin to describe the positions taken up by various people in this thread.

Hypocrisy does describe the actions of EA and Bioware compared to the things they like to say.

 

[NoSoup4You]

I played Guild Wars 2 at launch and I recall the devs saying that 44% of all characters created were human males. This is a fantasy game with five races and the option for male or female. That stat was shortly after launch, I'd expect it to go down significantly as many launch players leave the game and the long-timers create multiple alts.

I also recall Bioware stating that over 80% of Mass Effect players choose male Shepard.

Bottom line is, the people want to play as human males. And game companies are in the business of giving the people what they want.

 

[BladeVenom]

Mindlessly following political correctness is a sign of a lack of creativity and originality. No wonder Bioware has turned into a 2nd rate game developers.

In other news, "Playing as a black character in a video game, commonly viewed as a laudable choice promoting diversity, still can foster or strengthen racist attitudes, according to a recently published study." http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/22/55...ing-as-a-black-character-can-reinforce-racist

 

[BladeVenom]

So, basically, Bioware is admitting that they are spending their time being "socially conscious" rather than spending it making good, story driven games.

That's the message I got.

 

[Geosurface]

The question of whether movies, games, comics, etc need to broaden their horizons and break out of certain molds they repeat too often is a valid one. I would tend to agree that there is merit to this notion. However, I am not going to explore that question because there's a much more pressing and problematic one to look at.

The fact is, there is an extreme form of feminism which is really and truly infecting gaming and the tech industry lately. If you don't believe me, just look up some of the detailed debunkings of Anita Sarkeesian, Adria Richards, etc. Thunderf00t on YouTube is a great resource for this but there are many.

One of the saddest things I saw was when I recently watched Neil Druckman, the creative lead for The Last of Us come out and give this big long keynote speech and eventually he got around to talking about how originally his vision for the story and setting was that the infection only effected women, and the game was going to be called "Mankind" at that time. Several of the female employees at Naughty Dog told him that it was "misogynistic" and he said he resisted that for a long time and then came around to agreeing. He even talked about how he wanted the industry to be less misogynistic as his young daughter grows up and plays games... oh brother.

The fact is, he was brow beaten by feminist ideologues in his own company who have been taught by that ideology that EVERY SINGLE FEMALE THEY SEE IN ANY SORT OF MEDIA IS SOME SORT OF REPRESENTATIVE OF THEM AS INDIVIDUALS AND OF THEIR ENTIRE GENDER. This is an absolutely toxic and ridiculous viewpoint to have.

Can you imagine what it would be like if every time you saw any male character in any game, movie, TV show, book, comic... whatever, you mercilessly prodded that character's visual representation, personality, attire, relationship to other characters, story arc, etc etc... in an effort to make sure it wasn't anti-male? To make sure it wasn't "offending" you by portraying your gender in a bad light?

That is INSANITY. Anyone who thinks like that is strictly incapable of enjoying art in any sort of reasonable way. And yet, feminism has gotten us to the point where we've just taken it for granted that the majority of women, homosexuals, and minorities are not only entitled to view entertainment in that way, but that they SHOULD.

The only thing worse than it getting to that point, is for developers and publishers to start taking it seriously and reinforcing that behavior. That mindset needs to be on the decline, not gaining momentum.

Druckman's original idea for The Last of Us was in no way shape or form misogynistic. It reminded me of a Frank Herbert (Dune) novel I read many years ago called "The White Plague" about a scientist whose wife is killed by a car bomb in Northern Ireland, and as revenge he creates a virus which kills only women, and unleashes it in Ireland. It ends up spreading world wide, and there are only a few women left alive. Or of course there was that silly Slider's episode where they slid to an alternate dimension where there were only a handful of men who hadn't been wiped out by a virus. Or the excellent comic "Y: The Last Man" about a world where only one male has survived.

None of these works of fiction were anti-woman or anti-man. They were interesting thought exercises and created interesting worlds in which to set a story and explore the possibilities of what such a world would be like. What would happen if all or nearly all of one gender was gone? What would a society like that look like?

This is well within the traditional role of sci-fi in the great tradition of things like Twilight Zone, to explore and make you think about. Honestly, it can have a great deal of power to make you appreciate the contributions of your own gender or the opposite gender, which you may currently take for granted.

Were those other works accused of sexism? Well, I know at least that Y: The Last Man was. The creator addressed it in the beginning of the first comic, and said he'd received complaints that he must be anti-woman and also ones that said he must be anti-man! That's the thing. There will ALWAYS be agenda-driven whiners out there taking pot shots at creative works from the sidelines, but publishers, artists, and developers owe it to themselves, their creative vision, and their audience to IGNORE THOSE PEOPLE and go forth with their vision.

Now, The Last of Us turned out fantastically regardless. But it is still sad that an intriguing and rarely explored motif was avoided because of whining and because it was seen as "potentially offensive" or whatever the hell. That is amazingly disheartening. Can you imagine if Rod Serling had had to call a focus group of soccer moms before airing each episode of Twilight Zone to see if anyone might find the concepts offensive? Sci-fi needs to feature biting social commentary, etc. It cannot be encumbered by PC crap.

Now it's perfectly legitimate for a game to take a different direction during development. And as I said, Last of Us was fantastic in its final form. But if it doesn't bother you to realize that a lot of developers these days are hiring women who, if they were men, would either never make it past the interview stage, or at least never rise to the position they do, because they want to make sure they have enough females in prominent positions because it "looks better" etc, and that they then have this incredibly powerful influence to make sure everything that company puts out is "unoffensive to women" etc... if THAT doesn't make you depressed and concerned, it really should.

 

[Red Hawk]

Mindlessly following political correctness is a sign of a lack of creativity and originality. No wonder Bioware has turned into a 2nd rate game developers.

In other news, "Playing as a black character in a video game, commonly viewed as a laudable choice promoting diversity, still can foster or strengthen racist attitudes, according to a recently published study." http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/22/55...ing-as-a-black-character-can-reinforce-racist

Now isn't that a way to miss the point.

There's nothing mindless about this. There's pressure against it both from the publisher executives who would rather the studio go with safe, non-controversial, moneymaking choices, and from sexually insecure and homophobic fans who don't want the mere presence of gay characters "gaying up" their game. It's politically correct among a certain demographic, but that demographic isn't where a good chunk of BioWare and EA's money comes from.

 

[Blue_Max]

Now, The Last of Us turned out fantastically regardless. But it is still sad that an intriguing and rarely explored motif was avoided because of whining and because it was seen as "potentially offensive"

Great post! The original idea sounded cool! Certainly more original than a standard zombie backdrop. The game, in its current form, is doing what the feminists wanted it to do - portray women as stronger and better than the violent monkey-men around them. After watching some video play-throughs, I simply don't want to spend my money on a political statement that calls me "inferior".

I've never ONCE thought Princess Peach was "inferior" to Mario just because you were searching for her though drug-induced-psychosis-land. Heck, I could be rescuing Luigi - the objective was the fun of the game itself - not some implied superiority complex that I needed a princess to rescue and demand kissies and sandwiches from.

Okay... it's late and my sense of humour may be malfunctioning. Sleep. Must sleep.

 

[DominionSeraph]

In Japan the only games that are selling in large numbers involve bimbo chicks who dress like trollops. So thats what they keep making.

You know that's probably the worst example you could have possibly used?

(these two are just comic fill)

 

[gorcorps]

Stupid. I'm pretty sure I've been a black guy in GTA, Crysis 2 (maybe others?), and prototype 2. There could be more, but once I start playing it really doesn't come up so I don't notice. There's a lot of games where you can choose your own appearance/race because it doesn't matter.

The gay part for a story driven game is going to be a struggle if there's a romantic interest (which of course there will be). You're going to create a separation to gamers who can't relate, and the majority of people are straight. From a purely business point of view, a gay lead character isn't a smart move. It's unfortunate that the gay community can't relate to a lot of games for the same reason, but a business will always side with the "more potential sales" side.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

And yet the Bioware guy is being called racist (among other things) when his studio chooses to build what they want.

Hypocrisy doesn't even begin to describe the positions taken up by various people in this thread.

People are taking a run at him not because of what they're trying to build, but because apparently according to him, we're all supposed to be super accepting of that.

If he simply kept his mouth shut and made a game, and that game lived or died on its own merits, then no one would care. He's still free to make any game he likes, people voicing their opinion on his stupidity doesn't stop him from doing that.

It's still a free market and that's the point, if he was confident that their new approach is so right then they'd just shut up and make their games that way, not preface it with social conditioning where we're all politely told that shouldn't like what we currently like and instead alter our preferences to like the new more politically correct content they're making.

 

[Rakehellion]

Wtf are you on about, medium rare? Let's look at the top selling games of last year.

GTA V: white stereo type not found.

Oh, you mean other than the main character of the game who you play as 50% of the time?

COD Ghosts: military, so they are muscular and have crew cuts, but I'm sure there are minorities.

Doesn't help that they milk the genre to death either.

There have also been at least seventeen different Battlefield games just in the last five years.

Fifa: I don't even think there are white people in this game, and if they are, they certainly aren't starters.

That's irrelevant, because these aren't fictional characters.

And that's the entire point of the original article. There are plenty of minority groups in real life, but not in fiction for some reason.

Assassin's Creed: I hardly think this fits.

The main character?

http://i.imgur.com/KE3zKmp.jpg

Fits extremely well.

http://i.imgur.com/bdEhs2j.jpg

The Last of Us: okay, MAYBE, but you're pushing it.
Animal Crossing: lol not even close
Tomb Raider: the exact opposite
Monster Hunter IV: nope
Bioshock Infinite: maybe, but more in a hippy dippy kind of way AND racial themes were a part of this game, so it made sense for your character to blend in.

Okay, now you're just being dense. You're going to name every top game than came out last year and deny that any of them fit this description? That's some pretty hard denial.

No one's saying every game does this, but to say that none of them do it either is just ridiculous.

And it's funny you mention Pokemon and Monster Hunter. Japanese games. Proving you can be different and still "give the people what they want."

 

[Rakehellion]

...

 

[Rakehellion]

Japanese games are incredibly racist. Look at characters from Street Fighter: basically every single one that isn't Japanese is a stereo type of that region.

Even the Japanese characters in Street Fighter are stereotypes.

 

[SMOGZINN]

The fact is, there is an extreme form of feminism which is really and truly infecting gaming and the tech industry lately.

There is nothing extreme about this form of feminism. What you describe below is all valid points of how the male controlled media completely ignores women or treats them as objects.

originally his vision for the story and setting was that the infection only effected women, and the game was going to be called "Mankind" at that time.

This story, as you point out, has been told many times. Here is a question for you, can you point out a story about the opposite? A world that men are wiped out in a plague? I can think of only one example and it was almost completely a adolescent fantasy about a being the only man in a world of women starved for peen, once again delegating women into the role of sexual objects to be acted on by the male. The problem isn't that his story is inherently sexiest, it is that the female viewpoint is almost never represented, and we just keep making more and more male fantasies. This is so common that we really need to stop and question, 'Do we really need another male-centric fantasy scenario or would we be better served with something else?'

The fact is, he was brow beaten by feminist ideologues in his own company who have been taught by that ideology that EVERY SINGLE FEMALE THEY SEE IN ANY SORT OF MEDIA IS SOME SORT OF REPRESENTATIVE OF THEM AS INDIVIDUALS AND OF THEIR ENTIRE GENDER. This is an absolutely toxic and ridiculous viewpoint to have.

It is neither toxic nor ridiculous. I mean go back and read this thread. Practically every other post has someone saying that they identify with the characters they play. Here is an example:

After watching some video play-throughs, I simply don't want to spend my money on a political statement that calls me "inferior".

He automatically assumed that since his male-centric view was not the ONLY view represented then he must be inferior.

I've never ONCE thought Princess Peach was "inferior" to Mario just because you were searching for her though drug-induced-psychosis-land.

And just as an aside, Blue_Max, you don't see Princess Peach as inferior to Mario? The woman is literally a prize to be won. She is literally picked up and carried away with no struggle, several times, by the monster that Mario must defeat. The fact is, you never HAD to think about Princess Peach as inferior because you started with that assumption. That is bias.

Can you imagine what it would be like if every time you saw any male character in any game, movie, TV show, book, comic... whatever, you mercilessly prodded that character's visual representation, personality, attire, relationship to other characters, story arc, etc etc... in an effort to make sure it wasn't anti-male? To make sure it wasn't "offending" you by portraying your gender in a bad light?

Isn't that a base premises of marketing? We are more likely to buy a product if it portrays us in a positive light, or offers us a vision of what we wish we could be. This is a real thing, and we can see in real world terms how it is effecting women. For example women are much less likely to be interested in math and science because they are almost never portrayed in those roles in a positive light. If we want female gamers we need to quit with the misogynistic games.

That is INSANITY. Anyone who thinks like that is strictly incapable of enjoying art in any sort of reasonable way. And yet, feminism has gotten us to the point where we've just taken it for granted that the majority of women, homosexuals, and minorities are not only entitled to view entertainment in that way, but that they SHOULD.

So, your male gaze is the only RIGHT way to view art? That they do it in a different way is unreasonable? Think about what you are saying. It is fully reasonable for women, homosexuals, and minorities to view art as making a statement about them, just as you view art as making a statement about you.

But if it doesn't bother you to realize that a lot of developers these days are hiring women who, if they were men, would either never make it past the interview stage, or at least never rise to the position they do,

No. Those women may not bring the same thing that the men bring to the process, but they bring something important. A viewpoint that has been missing. That is valuable. It widens our ability to tell stories. It widens our ability to see the world. It is the answer to the problem of one dimensional characters and flat unbelievable dialog.

because they want to make sure they have enough females in prominent positions because it "looks better" etc, and that they then have this incredibly powerful influence to make sure everything that company puts out is "unoffensive to women" etc... if THAT doesn't make you depressed and concerned, it really should.

Your view is very narrow. You believe that if you can't bring it to the table then it must not be worth anything.
Men are always saying that they don't understand women. Maybe that is because they never let them speak.

 

[Red Storm]

In my experience, in games where the player character actually matters, where you can make varying moral decisions and mostly be the character you want to play, you have the option to customize your character. Many games do not even apply to this thread's discussion.

 

[darkewaffle]

There have also been at least seventeen different Battlefield games just in the last five years.

I have a hard time giving a crap about what color or gender my character is. But I do know my FemShep was a just badass.

 

[smackababy]

snip

Here is the problem: I am not buying a balanced viewpoint, I am buying entertainment and a large part of that (at least, in Bioware's case) is the story. If Robert Heinlein didn't have such a pro-military viewpoint, Starship Troppers wouldn't have been a good book. If he had sat back and contemplated "well, this book might offend people who hate the military or hate nonsegregated areas (males and females were equal in the MI), so I should change that" would it had been the same work of art? Of course not. Should we force, and frown upon, artists that don't include equal parts in their art? Should a man painting an erotic portrait of a women be forced by society to include a nude male as well, even if it doesn't fit in their piece at all?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Here is the problem: I am not buying a balanced viewpoint, I am buying entertainment and a large part of that (at least, in Bioware's case) is the story. If Robert Heinlein didn't have such a pro-military viewpoint, Starship Troppers wouldn't have been a good book. If he had sat back and contemplated "well, this book might offend people who hate the military or hate nonsegregated areas (males and females were equal in the MI), so I should change that" would it had been the same work of art? Of course not. Should we force, and frown upon, artists that don't include equal parts in their art? Should a man painting an erotic portrait of a women be forced by society to include a nude male as well, even if it doesn't fit in their piece at all?

Once again your view is too narrow. For the most part it is not about individual instances of art, it is about art in aggregate. Heinlein has already wrote his art, as has thousands of others. We have spent literally thousands of years focusing on the male gaze. We need to move some of that aside to focus on other viewpoints.

And I know you do not think you are buying a viewpoint, but in truth you are. The story IS a viewpoint. What is a story but a transfer of a viewpoint from a storyteller to an audience? But there is only so much room for storytellers to tell their stories, and we really need to make room for some other views then the ones we have been telling for so long.

 

[smackababy]

But there is only so much room for storytellers to tell their stories, and we really need to make room for some other views then the ones we have been telling for so long.

This isn't the case, not now. Maybe before, but certainly not now.

And this is about individual instances of art. I am not buying all of art, or the culture. I am interested in each piece of art on it's own merits, individually. I don't care if Bioware has some "all our games meet the standard gamut of politically and socially correct viewpoints!". I care if Bioware game X has a story I can relate to, understand, and engage in.

Your Mario example is also pretty poor. The princess being helpless is nothing more than a plot device, and it isn't even a original one at that. It isn't some kind of social commentary on women's roles in governing monarchies. Because, what exactly would the message be? "Women, in monarchies that rule over mushroom people, are so incredibly helpless that a turtle monster, who breathes fire and has a army of minions, can kidnap her and only a male Italian plumber can save her!"

The real issue is that in a lot of the most popular games, women would be considered inferior. Look at the military shooters. Women are inferior in combat situations than the equally trained male counterpart. It is biology. Men evolved to be the ones that were the hunters and the warriors. Men were made expendable. A single man can repopulate a village of women. A single woman cannot. Even the Olympics is proof that there is not an equal ground in competitive sports. The best men are leagues better than the best women in every single sport. Does that mean women are inferior in society? Not even close. Does that mean men are the better sex? Far from it.

 

[Rakehellion]

Should a man painting an erotic portrait of a women be forced by society to include a nude male as well, even if it doesn't fit in their piece at all?

No one's forced to do anything.

They're recycling the same character over and over. A visage they didn't create in the first place. You take the same guy used in every other video game out there, give him a new outfit and weapons, have him fight the same bad guys, and end up with another crappy 7/10 game that sells just enough to break even.

That isn't art, that's business.

Creative control is given to the producers, not the writers.

 

[darkewaffle]

Your Mario example is also pretty poor. The princess being helpless is nothing more than a plot device, and it isn't even a original one at that. It isn't some kind of social commentary on women's roles in governing monarchies. Because, what exactly would the message be? "Women, in monarchies that rule over mushroom people, are so incredibly helpless that a turtle monster, who breathes fire and has a army of minions, can kidnap her and only a male Italian plumber can save her!"

Reminded me of this sprite swap edit for the original Zelda which is all well and good but some of the [over]reactions to it are pretty funny.

 

[KeithTalent]

Reminded me of this sprite swap edit for the original Zelda which is all well and good but some of the [over]reactions to it are pretty funny.

Should just play Wand of Gamelon or Zelda's Adventure. You can play Zelda in both of those and in one of them Link is just asleep like a dummy throughout the whole game. Of course both of those games are terrible, so there is that.

KT

 

[Skel]

There is nothing extreme about this form of feminism. What you describe below is all valid points of how the male controlled media completely ignores women or treats them as objects.

With respect.. How can males control any industry? If anything that's a more misogynistic thought as it treats the women as if they're powerless to make their own games. The reality is barrier entry to the market is low, so anyone that wants to make games can.

This story, as you point out, has been told many times. Here is a question for you, can you point out a story about the opposite? A world that men are wiped out in a plague? I can think of only one example and it was almost completely a adolescent fantasy about a being the only man in a world of women starved for peen, once again delegating women into the role of sexual objects to be acted on by the male. The problem isn't that his story is inherently sexiest, it is that the female viewpoint is almost never represented, and we just keep making more and more male fantasies. This is so common that we really need to stop and question, 'Do we really need another male-centric fantasy scenario or would we be better served with something else?'

This is horrible thought.. fantasy stories should be created by the artists creating what art they want to make. If the entertainment group wants to tell a story they shouldn't have to check boxes.

It is neither toxic nor ridiculous. I mean go back and read this thread. Practically every other post has someone saying that they identify with the characters they play. Here is an example:


He automatically assumed that since his male-centric view was not the ONLY view represented then he must be inferior.


And just as an aside, Blue_Max, you don't see Princess Peach as inferior to Mario? The woman is literally a prize to be won. She is literally picked up and carried away with no struggle, several times, by the monster that Mario must defeat. The fact is, you never HAD to think about Princess Peach as inferior because you started with that assumption. That is bias.

In his defense it's not like the graphics could show us her struggling. Prize to be won is a viewpoint, but I always thought Mario was rescuing the Princess from Bowser. Is she unable to fight because she's a woman, or because she's a royal that's never had to exert herself ever?

Isn't that a base premises of marketing? We are more likely to buy a product if it portrays us in a positive light, or offers us a vision of what we wish we could be. This is a real thing, and we can see in real world terms how it is effecting women. For example women are much less likely to be interested in math and science because they are almost never portrayed in those roles in a positive light. If we want female gamers we need to quit with the misogynistic games.

Bullshit.. Every woman that has ever talked about Math and Science have all said they hated it because it was dry and uninteresting to them. It's not a question of PR. I don't care for them either, does that mean I wasn't properly marketed to?

So, your male gaze is the only RIGHT way to view art? That they do it in a different way is unreasonable? Think about what you are saying. It is fully reasonable for women, homosexuals, and minorities to view art as making a statement about them, just as you view art as making a statement about you.

I know you're not talking to me, but I do want to say again, if someone wants to make art, they should. Be it a video game or a comic, or a movie or whatever they should. To act like they can't because Big Dev isn't doing it is a cop out.

No. Those women may not bring the same thing that the men bring to the process, but they bring something important. A viewpoint that has been missing. That is valuable. It widens our ability to tell stories. It widens our ability to see the world. It is the answer to the problem of one dimensional characters and flat unbelievable dialog.

Your view is very narrow. You believe that if you can't bring it to the table then it must not be worth anything.
Men are always saying that they don't understand women. Maybe that is because they never let them speak.

If I need to make sure I have a woman to get that viewpoint doesn't that put me in the misogynistic protector mode? If I can't judge them upon their own abilities doesn't that make me a flawed person?

 

[Rakehellion]

The princess being helpless is nothing more than a plot device, and it isn't even a original one at that.

That's the point.

It isn't some kind of social commentary on women's roles in governing monarchies.

That's the point.