Bioware dev talks about misogyny, racism and homophobia in games

[Carfax83]

Bioware Montreal's gameplay designer Manveer Heir gave quite a stirring speech apparently at GDC 2014 concerning controversial subjects such as misogyny, racism, homophobia and how they relate to games:

He says it's "very cynical" to assume the audience isn't capable of embracing a gay hero or heroine, or "more exclusive women protagonists in games that aren't glorified sex objects and actually have personalities beyond supporting the men in the game",

Realism arguments - ie that women weren't soldiers in medieval times, for example - are "laughable" excuses, he said. Dragons didn't exist either

'But the audience doesn't respond as well to heroes who aren't white males!' - ie those games sell fewer copies. Hogwash, he argued. Those untypical games simply don't have the investment the typical blockbusters do.

We must reject stereotypes in games.

Some of what he said I agree with, but in the end, games are first and foremost about entertainment and making money, not political and social grandstanding...

Big developers don't just make games for fun. As expensive as AAA games can be to make, studios risk bankruptcy and going out of business each time one is developed, or at the very least, massive job cuts if the game doesn't sell as well as projected.

So there's plenty of risk involved. The best way to minimize risk is to know your target audience, and focus most of your resources on delivering the goods to that target audience whatever they may be.. Once you find a tried and true formula, sales are practically guaranteed provided there aren't any catastrophic screw ups..

Hence the never ending Call of Duty, Madden, Battlefield, Assassin's Creed, GTA iterations with little deviation in between..

So again, why inject risk into the formula by making a gay lead character, or a female lead just so you can say you're progressive?

Anyway, how Bioware goes about "diversity" in their games comes across as fraudulent to me. It's like they're ticking things off a list or something..

"Oh, we only have two gay characters, lets add some bisexuals and a transgender as well."

"Too many white people in this scene, lets add some minorities."

If the story is good and the characters are well written and integrated, then controversial subjects such as racism, sexism, and homosexuality can be easily navigated. The Witcher series is a great example of that.

But when it's forced, you get Dragon Age 2.. :whiste:

 

[biostud]

Of course it have to make sense to the game, but once you you change the stereotypic characters in media it will help how people are perceived in the real world.

 

[Carfax83]

Of course it have to make sense to the game, but once you you change the stereotypic characters in media it will help how people are perceived in the real world.

I disagree. Stereotypes usually exist for a reason, and what we see in the media, is merely a reflection of what occurs in the real world.. Games, which aren't even real, won't change that one bit..

In fact games, just like every other form of creative media, are often created around or based on the human experience in the real world..

That's why suspension of disbelief is such a critical component in any form of creative media for maintaining the semblance of plausibility and thus increasing immersion.

 

[biostud]

I disagree. Stereotypes usually exist for a reason, and what we see in the media, is merely a reflection of what occurs in the real world.. Games, which aren't even real, won't change that one bit..

In fact games, just like every other form of creative media, are often created around or based on the human experience in the real world..

That's why suspension of disbelief is such a critical component in any form of creative media for maintaining the semblance of plausibility and thus increasing immersion.

You perceive the world how you're taught to perceive it through your upbringing, and it works both ways.

When something happens in the real world the media reflects this and the more they reflect it, the more we start to perceive it as reality. I'm pretty sure that a show like "Will and Grace" take a general trend in society of homosexual acceptance and then reinforce the trend. If there had been no TV series about homosexuals I don't think we would have the same level of acceptance today.

Same with terrorism and Muslims and media exposure.

My point is that, the more the media reflect the "real world" in a certain way the more we're going to accept it as the normal and how we perceive what the real world is.

If you take two persons and one only watches fox news and the other CBS news, then their perception of the world will probably be quite different, even if they live in the same neighborhood.

Same if you take a Dane and an American, our culture, upbringing and media reflect and influence our view of the world every day.

 

[Fire&Blood]

I don't like how many of the articles about the social aspect of gaming imply that gaming is society's last bastion of homophobia, sexism and these articles keep alluding that out of all entertainment industry it's somehow the most fertile ground for bigotry, racism or any other kind of discrimination one can think of.

These articles are pushing for AAA titles with openly gay characters and construct the most damning explanations why there are no such games on the market. Apple's CEO is gay, I don't see people boycotting the brand because of that and at the same time I don't see Apple using gay couples in their ads and AFAIK, iphones don't ship with rainbow wallpapers.

I recall reading a few similar articles about poor female characters in games, as is the ones "approved" by the stereotyping bastards "that represent the majority of gaming males" are all great. They are not and authors of these articles don't stop to think that characters in games have ways to go, regardless of their ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation, or their creators for that matter.

I'm not saying things are perfect, the observations are valid and there are many examples of such but to claim that the primary reason for poorly represented female/gay/lesbian/minority characters is malicious intent or ignorance of people behind making and publishing games is insane.

It's as if a game with a female protagonist ends up flopping, there is the automatic conclusion that it upset the stereotyping gamers without stopping to think it may have just been a poor game, regardless of the character's identity and social status.

I realize that just because I loved Mirror's Edge and I wouldn't mind if the female and Asian protagonist was a lesbian on top of it doesn't make me immune to being a sexist, racist homophobic bastard but the criticism appears misdirected. Developing and publishing games is a costly and risky business, the industry trends respond to market. Is EA now supposed to please some social commentary by investing 5 years and 100 million dollars when no other business in the world would dare?

I would buy the next sequel even if Sam Fisher suddenly comes out of the closet, as long as the game is true to it's core but it seems like these authors are just itching to write rave reviews about controversial and provocative games and the actual quality takes the backseat. Gamers will buy games because they are good but I'm not sure a game turns out good if social commentary, provoking and controversy are the primary focus.

The author of the article linked in OP is a Bioware dev, will no one be allowed to criticize ME4 for any of it's flaws as long as it features a minority protagonist? Him and his best friend Adam Orth picked a target they can't miss, the general gamer.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

This is getting in the dangerous political field, where I can't stand businesses or entertainers' being I'll give the same advice I've said about Papa Johns, Obama care line item restaurants, Dardin restaurants (shut up and cook) or is it entertainers' Ted Nudgent and Dixie Chicks (shut up and sing). I advise this guy to shut up and make games.

 

[biostud]

I like the way Saints Row IV implemented it. That your character can have sex with all characters: male, female and robot. No matter what sex your own character is.

As with other games, you should only implement what makes sense for the game.
But I think that developers tend to create characters in based on a hetero normative world, and forget that characters can be other things than heterosexual beings. Not because of ill will, but because that's what we're used to see.

Personally I seldom play games that are heavily story driven, so it doesn't matter too much to my gaming. It would be a fresh perspective to have a gay person as one of the main characters in a AAA game.

 

[Rakehellion]

Stereotypes usually exist for a reason

This ought to be an interesting thread. Here we just threw all sanity out the window.

 

[orbster556]

I'm old enough to remember when BioWare was important for the game they produced and not for their hectoring about diversity when their vision of diversity isn't really all that different than a heteronormative paradigm.

I'll take their championing diversity seriously when they include characters that have sexual preferences that are still considered taboo -- or even criminalized -- by society.

To my mind, their current position, which encompasses so little of the actual diversity of human sexual expression, is little more than an attempt to garner sympathetic PR framed as a bold, principled stand.

 

[Rakehellion]

As with other games, you should only implement what makes sense for the game.
But I think that developers tend to create characters in based on a hetero normative world, and forget that characters can be other things than heterosexual beings. Not because of ill will, but because that's what we're used to see.

It's no accident that protagonists are tall, muscular, and look like Brad Pitt. Literally. Characters aren't just white, they're American, and play on the movie good guy trope from 80 years ago by even giving him a crew cut and 5 o'clock shadow. You can't say this is a coincidence. (Drake, Cole MacGrath, Max Payne, Michael De Santa, Commander Shepard, every character in Far Cry)

Or if he's the stereotypical regular badass, then he's slightly less pretty and has a bald head. (Kratos, Max Payne, Agent 47, Darius Mason)

All of this is done deliberately from day one and it's just formulaic and boring. Like listening to a Justin Bieber album.

"Too many white people in this scene, lets add some minorities."

In a video game, you can go from a lush forest to volcanic wasteland to a crystal cave in the span of an hour, but you can't have a black person in a scene or it's "forced."

 

[shortylickens]

In Japan the only games that are selling in large numbers involve bimbo chicks who dress like trollops. So thats what they keep making.

For good or for bad, publishers are in this game to make money, not to make art. And apparently the vast majority of gamers in America either ARE white, nerdy males who dream of being tall & handsome, or at least are willing to keep paying money for white male protagonists.
Did you also notice that most comic book protagonists are white males?
They still havent done a Spawn video game, have they?
Or for that matter Wonder Woman, Superwoman, Batgirl, Rogue, Storm, or any other female hero, regardless of color. (I mean with them as the main character, not a background character in a male dominated game).

IF they did make such games, the females would probably act slutty and stupid and always wear high class hooker outfits.

Remember Watchmen? One of the girls dressed like a cheap French whore and the other girl dressed like an expensive French Rubber Dominatrix. Oh, and she was a hot lesbian, who only made out with other hot women.
And the daughter had a sexy outfit that was like some weird combination of all the sexy outfits ever worn by a female superhero.


This is why I like small, independent companies such as the Kerbal people. They actually worry about making a fun game that some people will like, as opposed to a popular game that 10 million people will purchase and then forget about.

 

[biostud]

It's no accident that protagonists are tall, muscular, and look like Brad Pitt. Literally. Characters aren't just white, they're American, and play on the movie good guy trope from 80 years ago by even giving him a crew cut and 5 o'clock shadow. You can't say this is a coincidence. (Drake, Cole MacGrath, Max Payne, Michael De Santa, Commander Shepard, every character in Far Cry)

No it's not a coincidence, it is just what we usually do. It is always the typical action hero character. Not because they think less of other types, but because "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Personally I think that those making the games (like those making action movies) are afraid of/or lack imagination to do changes. And maybe that's most people want, but that's also the reason I very seldom watch action movies, because the characters are flat stereotypes.

But I don't think it's because they are homophobes or racists.

 

[TheSlamma]

I didn't think people cared that much about this crap. Sexual preference didn't make Mass Effect 3 suck.. it was that crap ending. And people don't seem to care if they play as Coach or Nick (L4D2) they just want to enjoy a good game.

I'd rather see less of the relationship trash in Bioware games personally, seriously people find it fun to pursue a video game relationship? seems kind of pathetic.

 

[shortylickens]

I didn't think people cared that much about this crap. Sexual preference didn't make Mass Effect 3 suck.. it was that crap ending. And people don't seem to care if they play as Coach or Nick (L4D2) they just want to enjoy a good game.

I'd rather see less of the relationship trash in Bioware games personally, seriously people find it fun to pursue a video game relationship? seems kind of pathetic.

Yeah and theres plenty of gays in New Vegas but it just doesnt matter. You are trying to kill mutants and negotiate with warring factions. No one gives a damn who you like you boink.

 

[biostud]

I didn't think people cared that much about this crap. Sexual preference didn't make Mass Effect 3 suck.. it was that crap ending. And people don't seem to care if they play as Coach or Nick (L4D2) they just want to enjoy a good game.

I'd rather see less of the relationship trash in Bioware games personally, seriously people find it fun to pursue a video game relationship? seems kind of pathetic.

I guess relationships in computer games are like the interactive version of fictional characters in movies, books etc.

You also read books about love, relationships, friends etc. and get emotionally involved. Personally I haven't had a computer game move me like a good movie or book.

 

[mmntech]

No it's not a coincidence, it is just what we usually do. It is always the typical action hero character. Not because they think less of other types, but because "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Personally I think that those making the games (like those making action movies) are afraid of/or lack imagination to do changes. And maybe that's most people want, but that's also the reason I very seldom watch action movies, because the characters are flat stereotypes.

But I don't think it's because they are homophobes or racists.

Well, you have suits that are making creative decisions and they want to invest in games that have the broadest appeal. They don't want to take risks. Which is why you rarely see titles from big studios diverge from that basic formula. When they do take a risk, the games don't usually sell as well as they'd like. Take Mirror's Edge for example. It had a strong female protagonist (Asian too, bonus points for a visual minority character) with unique gameplay, from a big name developer. It sold modestly but wasn't a runaway success. The game was originally part of a trilogy but no others got green lit. Now the reboot of the series is shaping up to be another watered down MMO. The same applies for the Tomb Raider reboot. Square is not going to make any more games like that. In their eyes, it wasn't a success despite being critically acclaimed.

Indie games and games from medium sized developers don't really have this issue as much. Since there's more creative freedom. I doubt Portal would have been green lit by any of the Big Three third party publishers. Let alone anything like To the Moon, Kerbal Space Program, The Banner Saga, The Stanley Parabola, Journey, or Octodad. Something like Gone Home they wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole due to it's provocative theme.

Industry executives are still trapped in this idea that games are the primary domain of children and teenage males. So that's the kind of games they make. Especially targeting the latter because they have more disposable income. Teenage boys love three things: boobs, butts, and blowing stuff up, in that order. Which is why few M-Rated games actually have any mature content. It's also why we remain squeamish about sex in gaming.

I don't think macho male characters and sexualized female characters are necessarily a bad thing though. It really depends on the type of game you're making. Games are a form of escapism. They give you a chance to be something you're not. Nobody wants to play a game about a wimpy nerd who runs away from his problems. If you need an example of how much that would suck, go play Lester the Unlikely on the SNES.

However, the game's characters have to make sense in their own universe. Duke Nukem is all about macho men and scantily clad women. Yet since he's a parody of 80s action flicks, it makes perfect sense. Same applies with a sexy female protagonist like Bayonetta, or the sexy demons from Disgaea. Even Kratos, at least in the first game. Grand Theft Auto is another game series that does this well.

Though if you're doing T&A for the sake of T&A, or writing wooden macho male characters because you don't know what else to do with them, you need to rethink your strategy. Writing for games is a tricky thing because they are an interactive medium. There's so few people in the industry that are really good at it. Which is the other reason why so many fall on these crutches.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

You can script out the homophobia until the cows come home. And frankly, I hope they do. It makes me cringe.

But until the games actually have good stories and characters you give a rat's ass about, most of the character "fleshing out" feels stupid and awkward anyway.

(And yes, I've played BioWare MMOs. No, they're superficial and formulaic, with disposable, cookie cutter characters. Yes, even KotOR 1. No, I totally saw that ending coming. And the other ending. And the epilogue. I watched the damn movies and read the EU novels. There's a formula.)

I don't notice a lot of overt racism anymore, except by omission. But I think we've had more practice at deliberately being observably a-racial in our media.

**gives stink-eye to Pokemon**

But gay issues aside, most of it - particularly the demographics of protagonists/antagonists - won't change until the buying demographics do.

 

[cmdrdredd]

What bugs me most is developers and publishers feel they have to pander to this audience. They have to take a controversial subject and say "see we aren't insensitive". Even when nobody implied they are or ever were. They need to just make games that are not boring and uninspired. I don't think any gamer cares beyond that.

 

[Carfax83]

You perceive the world how you're taught to perceive it through your upbringing, and it works both ways.

Yes, but personal experience matters even more. For example, I was raised in a Christian household and environment, but as an adult, I'm not a Christian or religious in any sense of the word..

When something happens in the real world the media reflects this and the more they reflect it, the more we start to perceive it as reality. I'm pretty sure that a show like "Will and Grace" take a general trend in society of homosexual acceptance and then reinforce the trend. If there had been no TV series about homosexuals I don't think we would have the same level of acceptance today.

While you're correct, media exposure is only one small fragment of what shapes our perception. The perception of homosexuality has ebbed and flowed throughout the centuries from permissive to oppressive, and back again long before there was any T.V..

Same with terrorism and Muslims and media exposure.

There's no smoke without fire. And this goes back to what I said earlier about stereotypes existing for a reason. That's not to say that I think stereotypes should be applied universally of course, but to pretend they have no foundation in reality is naïve..

My point is that, the more the media reflect the "real world" in a certain way the more we're going to accept it as the normal and how we perceive what the real world is.

As I said before, the media is only a small portion of what affects our perception of the World..

If you take two persons and one only watches fox news and the other CBS news, then their perception of the world will probably be quite different, even if they live in the same neighborhood.

You can draw parallels such as that for many things, but what does it mean in the end?

Never forget everyone's an individual first and foremost..

 

[thedosbox]

There's no smoke without fire. And this goes back to what I said earlier about stereotypes existing for a reason. That's not to say that I think stereotypes should be applied universally of course, but to pretend they have no foundation in reality is naïve..

So you're saying most gamers have bad social skills, are overweight and live in their parents basement?

And the ones who don't fit that stereotype only get to play games that reflect the aboves power fantasies?

Huh.

 

[Carfax83]

They are not and authors of these articles don't stop to think that characters in games have ways to go, regardless of their ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation, or their creators for that matter.

This goes back to what I said in my OP about the quality of the game's plot and characters being critical in navigating controversial subjects such as sexism, racism and homosexuality successfully.

Some games have done this quite well, the Witcher series comes to mind first and foremost. There is a ton of racism against non humans in the Witcher series, but CDPR never felt it was necessary to include minority humans in the games just for the sake of it or to balance it out. With the Dragon Age series on the other hand, you can tell that Bioware made a CONCERTED effort to include minorities and women in their games.

And there's nothing wrong with that, as it's a fantastical setting so nothing needs to be justified. But does it make the World more authentic and believable when you see female mercenaries, warriors and bandits in a one to one ratio with male mercenaries, warriors and bandits?

In my opinion, no. And this goes back to the whole suspension of disbelief thing.

 

[Carfax83]

So you're saying most gamers have bad social skills, are overweight and live in their parents basement?

And the ones who don't fit that stereotype only get to play games that reflect the aboves power fantasies?

Huh.

I never said anything about most gamers being anything.. My point was that stereotypes usually exist for a reason..

Only fools apply, or believe in stereotypes universally however, as people are first and foremost individuals no matter their creed, color, sex, orientation, religion, upbringing etcetera...

 

[thedosbox]

I never said anything about most gamers being anything.. My point was that stereotypes usually exist for a reason..

That's disingenous and ignoring the point - namely that you're effectively saying that people who don't fit the stereotype should be ignored.

 

[finglobes]

Manveer Heir is just a PC loon who thinks games should ooze propaganda. He wants games were soldiers come out as gay to fellow soldiers. What a dumb idea for a game. Misogny is pretty funny since every game I play has a super duper battle chica who is captain of everything and kicks everyones butt - a type of girl that doesn't exist in real life.

There are no women kicking butt in men's sports. Michelle Wie was a much hyped flop and Danica Patrick is still trying to win something. But in games women are all over the place kicking everyone's butt - its psychotic.

Homophobia doesn't actually exist. Studies show peoples reaction to homosexuality is disgust and not fear. In any case a REAL phobia is a disorder a person has no control over. Yet people with the imagined homophobia are attacked as if they are making choices. The whole "phobia" thing makes no sense. In truth its just a political device meant to shame people into compliance.

As for racism, Manveer Heir is Indian and resented growing up in non-Indian society. Solution to that one is simple and it doesn't include remaking the whole US gaming industry. Do games and media in India all have white central characters? I doubt it - and I doubt Heir would complain about racism in India . This guy is just a whiny pest who is probably racist himself. He should go to India and complain about lack of white main characters in Bollywood to get some cred.

 

[Stringjam]

That's disingenous and ignoring the point - namely that you're effectively saying that people who don't fit the stereotype should be ignored.

I believe he is saying that stereotypes exist for a reason, and it's true.

Companies developing and marketing products absolutely bank on it, and if it didn't pay off for them, they would change their approach.

Marketing is intentionally racist - meaning that they make decisions on who to target based on factors such as race. I remember taking a marketing class in college and being a little shocked at how non-PC some of the material was, but that's the way it works. You can throw all of that pretentious "we're all the same" philosophy out the window in the real world.

"X" group shares enough of the same beliefs and behaviors that if you cater to "X" group, you are going to sell more stuff to them, and develop more loyalty to your brand.


What I don't like about this current trend of trying to force these culture issues into games is that it comes across just like it is -FORCED.

I am a white, heterosexual male. If I were going to write a story (or develop a game), it would be from MY perspective. I have no idea what it is like to be a lesbian, hispanic girl, so it would be inane for me to try to write or develop something from that perspective and expect it not to be garbage.

If any group wants to get their perspective across in entertainment, they should just stop bitching and start creating. The former group always seems vastly outnumber the latter. Create or GTFO.