Bioware dev talks about misogyny, racism and homophobia in games

[thedosbox]

I believe he is saying that stereotypes exist for a reason, and it's true.

Companies developing and marketing products absolutely bank on it, and if it didn't pay off for them, they would change their approach.

Marketing is intentionally racist - meaning that they make decisions on who to target based on factors such as race. I remember taking a marketing class in college and being a little shocked at how non-PC some of the material was, but that's the way it works. You can throw all of that pretentious "we're all the same" philosophy out the window in the real world.

"X" group shares enough of the same beliefs and behaviors that if you cater to "X" group, you are going to sell more stuff to them, and develop more loyalty to your brand.

Which is fine if you just consider games a product to be sold to the masses.

But seeing as games are such a big part of modern culture, I think it's foolish to ignore those who don't fit into the convenient marketing categories.

 

[Stringjam]

Which is fine if you just consider games a product to be sold to the masses.

I agree...I think games are much more than a product, and are capable of being a deep and meaningful story medium (not that every game should be, or needs to be).

A developer is going to have to make a decision understanding that it may cost them appeal to a large group of potential consumers. I think indie and small studio developers have a lot more freedom where this is concerned to be a bit more brave.

I personally am more into the "leave it to the imagination" camp when it comes to relationships in games than explicitly forcing it on the participant. Subtlety and skillful writing and dialog are far more interesting to me than the hamfisted dude-bro approach most developers seem to take.

And yes, I am pretty sick of dumb whores in video games - - as if every game needs to have them now. It's like games are being developed by guys who have never had a relationship with a real, intelligent, interesting woman. Meaningful character interaction still has a LONG way to go in video games.....and BioWare is one to talk. If you can't do a good job at it, at least try to be more open / less obvious about it and let the player use his own experiences and imagination to fill in the gaps.

 

[biostud]

I think that the Lisbeth Salander character from "The girl with the Dragon Tatoo" is a good example of how a non hetero normative character can be an interesting heroine.

 

[Fire&Blood]

In my experience, most game characters are too busy taking arrows to knees, repeating one liners, running into walls, making observations such as "what a lovely day" during catastrophic weather, getting lost and just generally obstructing gameplay progress and ruining immersion to project any discrimination or to illuminate social issues.

Like I posted earlier, the issue shouldn't be dismissed but most of the problems with game characters are on the technical side of development. I would side with this dev or other authors if game characters were anywhere near being solid but they aren't, far from it.

Pointing fingers at the gaming industry while Megan Fox risks hypothermia repairing motorcycles is weak especially because the whole equation of problems game development has to deal with is completely removed from movies and TV. Setting a higher standard for Ubisoft, EA and R* than for Apple, Honda and Viacom, I'm not buying it. Everyone unhappy with the social aspect of games is free to make games to address it.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

There have been several strong women characters in games, not counting RPG's where you can build your character any way you like (i.e. male/female). Some examples:
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider series)
April Ryan Longest Journey and Zoe Castillo (Dreamfall)
Cate Archer (NOLF games)
Drakan (Drakan Order of the Flame)
Grace Nakamura Gabriel Knight)
Alice (American McGees Alice games)
Kate Walker (Syberia 1 and 2)
Mona Sax (Max Payne 2)
Faith (Mirrors Edge)
However, I will agree, most PC games feature male heroes; however I would not call that an issue or an example of misogyny. Portraying women merely as sex objects with no real relevance to the game is rather off putting, but then whatever floats your boat...seems rather immature to me.

The Wife

 

[Fire&Blood]

There have been several strong women characters in games, not counting RPG's where you can build your character any way you like (i.e. male/female). Some examples:
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider series)
April Ryan Longest Journey and Zoe Castillo (Dreamfall)
Cate Archer (NOLF games)
Drakan (Drakan Order of the Flame)
Grace Nakamura Gabriel Knight)
Alice (American McGees Alice games)
Kate Walker (Syberia 1 and 2)
Mona Sax (Max Payne 2)
Faith (Mirrors Edge)
However, I will agree, most PC games feature male heroes; however I would not call that an issue or an example of misogyny. Portraying women merely as sex objects with no real relevance to the game is rather off putting, but then whatever floats your boat...seems rather immature to me.

The Wife

Exactly, I used Faith as an example earlier, the games you listed had one thing in common, they were good games. Gamers don't reject games because of protagonist choices, replacing these characters wouldn't have had an impact on their success just as much as simply changing the character wouldn't have helped bad games. Sure, if you make a game with a alpha male protagonist ploughing through hordes of female NPC's, there is going to be a sexually frustrated or totally inexperienced minority that will explore it but ultimately the success of a game is proportional to it's quality.

 

[Carfax83]

That's disingenous and ignoring the point - namely that you're effectively saying that people who don't fit the stereotype should be ignored.

Talk about jumping to conclusions. You're just trying to pin me down as another intolerant bigot..

Unfortunately, it's more complex than that. As Stringjam noted, marketing is based on stereotypes and common perceptions.. When was the last time you saw makeup being marketed towards a man?

Don't those cosmetic companies know that they are missing out on half the population due to their ridiculous fixation on marketing their products towards women and not men?

How silly of them.. :whiste:

Games are no different. Self identified homosexuals make up 3 to 4% of the population according to most statistics. Heterosexuals make up over 90% of the population. Young men constitute the vast bulk of gamers that are willing to spend serious money on their hobby. Women gamers on the other hand while plentiful, are typically much more casual in their approach to gaming, and far less likely to spend serious money on games..

When you add all of these factors up, it's not hard to see why AAA games are so formulaic with little deviation.. It has nothing to do with racism, homophobia or misogyny.

It's all about money, and risk reduction..

 

[shortylickens]

There have been several strong women characters in games, not counting RPG's where you can build your character any way you like (i.e. male/female). Some examples:
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider series)
April Ryan Longest Journey and Zoe Castillo (Dreamfall)
Cate Archer (NOLF games)
Drakan (Drakan Order of the Flame)
Grace Nakamura Gabriel Knight)
Alice (American McGees Alice games)
Kate Walker (Syberia 1 and 2)
Mona Sax (Max Payne 2)
Faith (Mirrors Edge)
However, I will agree, most PC games feature male heroes; however I would not call that an issue or an example of misogyny. Portraying women merely as sex objects with no real relevance to the game is rather off putting, but then whatever floats your boat...seems rather immature to me.

The Wife

The vast majority of those are hot sluts in either skin-tight, revealing, or just plain slutty outfits.
Several of them are major bimbos as well.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Manveer Heir is just a PC loon who thinks games should ooze propaganda. He wants games were soldiers come out as gay to fellow soldiers. What a dumb idea for a game. Misogny is pretty funny since every game I play has a super duper battle chica who is captain of everything and kicks everyones butt - a type of girl that doesn't exist in real life.

There are no women kicking butt in men's sports. Michelle Wie was a much hyped flop and Danica Patrick is still trying to win something. But in games women are all over the place kicking everyone's butt - its psychotic.

Homophobia doesn't actually exist. Studies show peoples reaction to homosexuality is disgust and not fear. In any case a REAL phobia is a disorder a person has no control over. Yet people with the imagined homophobia are attacked as if they are making choices. The whole "phobia" thing makes no sense. In truth its just a political device meant to shame people into compliance.

As for racism, Manveer Heir is Indian and resented growing up in non-Indian society. Solution to that one is simple and it doesn't include remaking the whole US gaming industry. Do games and media in India all have white central characters? I doubt it - and I doubt Heir would complain about racism in India . This guy is just a whiny pest who is probably racist himself. He should go to India and complain about lack of white main characters in Bollywood to get some cred.

These are interesting points, and it presents an argument I have not seen used before.

What I don't like about this current trend of trying to force these culture issues into games is that it comes across just like it is -FORCED.

I am a white, heterosexual male. If I were going to write a story (or develop a game), it would be from MY perspective. I have no idea what it is like to be a lesbian, hispanic girl, so it would be inane for me to try to write or develop something from that perspective and expect it not to be garbage.

If any group wants to get their perspective across in entertainment, they should just stop bitching and start creating. The former group always seems vastly outnumber the latter. Create or GTFO.

This is kind of what I meant before. These devs or publishers (EA for example) who come out and directly comment on this are forcing it to be an issue. They can write whatever they want into the game but rather than just do that and leave it alone saying "we thought it would present an interesting story to explore" they have to come out and get political and almost seem like an activist. I think this is kind of idiotic because you will always have people who pick sides against you and that is never good when you are selling a product. No, not everyone will like your product or be the target for your product but when you get your name out there as saying "I support X" then people who do not agree will remember your name and refuse to buy your product based solely on that. If you remain neutral and simple make a product to whatever demographic you choose, especially in gaming, people will buy it if the results are good. In other words, if you want to have a gay character in a game then go ahead, but don't make it an issue in the media because you will eliminate certain potential buyers before you start.

 

[shortylickens]

Danica Patrick has won some trophies.

And I agree "homophobia" is a political phrase used to gain compliance from shame.

In any case, video games arent necessarily meant to be a progressive tool. They are an escape from reality. People play them to have fun. Not to be challenged and have their thoughts changed. You'll make more money (right now) catering to the traditional nerd crowd than any other single group. That just basic economics, supply and demand.

 

[thedosbox]

Talk about jumping to conclusions. You're just trying to pin me down as another intolerant bigot..

Unfortunately, it's more complex than that. As Stringjam noted, marketing is based on stereotypes and common perceptions.. When was the last time you saw makeup being marketed towards a man?

Don't those cosmetic companies know that they are missing out on half the population due to their ridiculous fixation on marketing their products towards women and not men?

How silly of them.. :whiste:

First two hits on google for "mens makeup"

http://www.mensmake-up.co.uk/calvin-klein-foundation-for-men.html
http://www.kenmen.net/en/skinColour/

But hey, if some of you want to equate games with makeup and lawnmowers, feel free. I'm sure you'll be happy to continue paying for the same old repackaged games.

 

[cmdrdredd]

First two hits on google for "mens makeup"

http://www.mensmake-up.co.uk/calvin-klein-foundation-for-men.html
http://www.kenmen.net/en/skinColour/

But hey, if some of you want to equate games with makeup and lawnmowers, feel free. I'm sure you'll be happy to continue paying for the same old repackaged games.

And you see commercials every day advertising these products? No...no you don't. You DO see commercials advertising toward women.

That's the marketing side. He never said it didn't exist.

 

[TheMeanestGuest]

The vast majority of those are hot sluts in either skin-tight, revealing, or just plain slutty outfits.
Several of them are major bimbos as well.

What? Is there a point here aside from you being a creep? Does it matter if the protagonist of a game is attractive? It's not like the same isn't true for men in games, and I don't see you commenting dismissively that they're just giant hunks of muscular man meat.

 

[Rakehellion]

the vast majority of gamers in America either ARE white, nerdy males who dream of being tall & handsome

This is not true. About 60% of gamers are male and a good chunk of them are non-white. And games are sold in places other than America, so white males are a minority of the profits. The issue is that the majority of people who own the companies are white males.

 

[Red Hawk]

But when it's forced, you get Dragon Age 2.. :whiste:

Yeah. My stance on gay characters in games is that if the writer wants to add a little realism and diversity by putting in gay characters, so be it. I won't badmouth the game for it. Mass Effect 3 rather tastefully handled its gay characters, IMO. But Dragon Age 2 was just poorly handled. Making everyone bi just because is borderline insulting. It's sacrificing good writing just to make a political statement, but not going all the way with it. Does each character have to keep its straight romance to be in the game? Is that the only way gay characters can be in the game? Thankfully ME3 had a couple purely gay/lesbian characters. I'll take that over making everyone bisexual, both on a writing level and on a personal level. Personally, I find it difficult to reconcile being in a relationship with a bisexual person with my own beliefs. Since everyone was bisexual in DA2, that meant I had to be celibate, which kind of felt like I was being excluded. It's not that I want a "no homo" button, but I would appreciate at least one purely straight romance option.

I guess relationships in computer games are like the interactive version of fictional characters in movies, books etc.

You also read books about love, relationships, friends etc. and get emotionally involved. Personally I haven't had a computer game move me like a good movie or book.

I've had several move me that way.

I don't notice a lot of overt racism anymore, except by omission. But I think we've had more practice at deliberately being observably a-racial in our media.

**gives stink-eye to Pokemon**

But gay issues aside, most of it - particularly the demographics of protagonists/antagonists - won't change until the buying demographics do.

Eh? Maybe early Pokemon games were "a-racial", but Pokemon X has several characters of different ethnicities and allows the player character to be black.

 

[Skel]

I’ve seen this topic come up before, and a lot in comics. It seems that because there aren’t a ton of games being made with gay heroes that somehow means that we’re failing as a society somehow. These call to arms almost always ignore a very important fact about these industries, anyone can make the product.



So what if the big developer houses don’t want to make a game with a gay hero? They’re too busy attempting to wring out the last drops of blood from their aging franchises. Almost everyone sees it and bitches about it, and yet somehow we’re surprised these same developers aren’t going even farther out of the box by playing with the formulas they know sell huge? Seriously?



If there really is a market, and I honestly don’t know if there is or isn’t. (When was the last time you saw a farming sim? Does that mean those kids who dream of being farmers aren’t properly represented?) I couldn’t tell you if having the option to bang other members of your sex upped the sales of Mass Effect or Dragon Age, but I digress…


If these idiots really want the games, (and yeah, I think anyone that attempts to force people to do what they want are idiots, which is what these call to arms are) learn to code. Make the Indy games, make them good and show big Dev that they sell. Then people would see those games… of course if they don’t sell don’t get mad at Big Dev for not making them.

 

[Raduque]

There have been several strong women characters in games, not counting RPG's where you can build your character any way you like (i.e. male/female). Some examples:
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider series)
April Ryan Longest Journey and Zoe Castillo (Dreamfall)
Cate Archer (NOLF games)
Drakan (Drakan Order of the Flame)
Grace Nakamura Gabriel Knight)
Alice (American McGees Alice games)
Kate Walker (Syberia 1 and 2)
Mona Sax (Max Payne 2)
Faith (Mirrors Edge)
However, I will agree, most PC games feature male heroes; however I would not call that an issue or an example of misogyny. Portraying women merely as sex objects with no real relevance to the game is rather off putting, but then whatever floats your boat...seems rather immature to me.

The Wife

You forgot one:

Edit: I realize this is PC Gaming, but Alexandra Roivas is IMO, way stronger a character than most of the ones you listed.

If there really is a market, and I honestly don’t know if there is or isn’t. (When was the last time you saw a farming sim? Does that mean those kids who dream of being farmers aren’t properly represented?)

http://store.steampowered.com/app/258880/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/220260/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/236790/

The vast majority of those are hot sluts in either skin-tight, revealing, or just plain slutty outfits.
Several of them are major bimbos as well.

You have to be doing this on purpose.

 

[Skel]

You forgot one:

Edit: I realize this is PC Gaming, but Alexandra Roivas is IMO, way stronger a character than most of the ones you listed.



http://store.steampowered.com/app/258880/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/220260/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/236790/




You have to be doing this on purpose.

I had no idea those farmer games were made. Of course that completely proves my point that anyone can make any game they want.

 

[Carfax83]

First two hits on google for "mens makeup"

http://www.mensmake-up.co.uk/calvin-klein-foundation-for-men.html
http://www.kenmen.net/en/skinColour/

But hey, if some of you want to equate games with makeup and lawnmowers, feel free. I'm sure you'll be happy to continue paying for the same old repackaged games.

The argument completely flew over your head apparently..

 

[Blue_Max]

There have been several strong women characters in games, not counting RPG's where you can build your character any way you like (i.e. male/female). Some examples:
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider series)
April Ryan Longest Journey and Zoe Castillo (Dreamfall)
Cate Archer (NOLF games)
Drakan (Drakan Order of the Flame)
Grace Nakamura Gabriel Knight)
Alice (American McGees Alice games)
Kate Walker (Syberia 1 and 2)
Mona Sax (Max Payne 2)
Faith (Mirrors Edge)
However, I will agree, most PC games feature male heroes; however I would not call that an issue or an example of misogyny. Portraying women merely as sex objects with no real relevance to the game is rather off putting, but then whatever floats your boat...seems rather immature to me.

The Wife

Very few games actually portray a hatred of women, the real definition of misogyny. The vast majority of the time, angry feminists are simply screaming "misogyny" anytime their agendas are not being put first and foremost, as well as female characters being portrayed as all things noble & good, with men being stupid, violent and evil.

It's already been pointed out that almost all female heroines have been chided, more than praised, for being too attractive. Yet, if you made them dumpy, butch, overweight or unattractive, they'd ALSO be criticized for not being displayed in a positive light.

In short, there's no pleasing the ones who want to complain. There's no "winning" strategy. The people doing the most complaining barely even play the games in question. (A good example is the fraud, Anita Sarkeesian.)

I don't think the problem is NEARLY as bad as the complainers would imply.

 

[Red Hawk]

Very few games actually portray a hatred of women, the real definition of misogyny. The vast majority of the time, angry feminists are simply screaming "misogyny" anytime their agendas are not being put first and foremost, as well as female characters being portrayed as all things noble & good, with men being stupid, violent and evil.

It's already been pointed out that almost all female heroines have been chided, more than praised, for being too attractive. Yet, if you made them dumpy, butch, overweight or unattractive, they'd ALSO be criticized for not being displayed in a positive light.

In short, there's no pleasing the ones who want to complain. There's no "winning" strategy. The people doing the most complaining barely even play the games in question. (A good example is the fraud, Anita Sarkeesian.)

I don't think the problem is NEARLY as bad as the complainers would imply.

Overt "hatred of women" is a rather naive definition of misogyny. Misogynists can love women, love their wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters, mothers, etc., as much as the next person, but still have harmful attitudes towards women. Harmful attitudes can be as simple as having women always be the "damsel in distress", never capable of saving themselves.

 

[Blue_Max]

Overt "hatred of women" is a rather naive definition of misogyny. Misogynists can love women, love their wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters, mothers, etc., as much as the next person, but still have harmful attitudes towards women. Harmful attitudes can be as simple as having women always be the "damsel in distress", never capable of saving themselves.

Again, that can (and WILL be) twisted into every circumstance possible. "Harmful attitude" is a nice general statement that will encompass anything. ANYTHING.

 

[Jaydip]

So BW is bitching again I see.I have not seen a more attention grabbing whore than BW honestly, I thought after DA2 they would be quiet for some time but I guess not.

 

[Mondozei]

I think its a myth that gamers are more homophobic or misogynist(cba spelling) than the general population.

As for race, it is less of a case of racism and more a general disinterest. Since the industry is dominated by men, typically white and asian men, and men are 95% straight or bi, what you end up with are characters reflecting that.

Still, there is a lot more diversity now than before. The protagonist is still white male because that is who the narrator identifies with, but the extra cast is increasingly non-white, just look at the BF4 campaign or AssCreed games recently. There are many more examples.

 

[Mondozei]

This is not true. About 60% of gamers are male and a good chunk of them are non-white. And games are sold in places other than America, so white males are a minority of the profits. The issue is that the majority of people who own the companies are white males.

That isnt an issue except for a bigot. Maybe we should make exception with Jewish-owned companies next.