Attention Bernie Bros

[sandorski]

How successful do you suppose progressives will be at changing the system without even that "nominal opposition?"

And have you considered the possibility that your own tactic of constantly attacking your only potential allies, instead of working to persuade them to your cause, is your own virtuous way of pretending to be doing something while ensuring nothing is done to change the system?

Think about it, while you keep doing everything you can to help Trump get re-elected.

Going back to the Status Quo - Trump is not Changing the System. Why is this so hard to understand? People don't want the Status Quo.

 

[eelw]

Who says people don’t want the status quo?

 

[dank69]

A few years ago I read that if you stop thinking about the Democratic party in traditional terms (a party that seeks to gain and exercise power), and think of it instead as a party that only exists as a nominal opposition party, providing a fig leaf of an alternative from the unapologetic party of monstrous capitalism, their behavior makes much more sense. Voting for a democrat allows people to feel virtuous and sneer at the Republicans while they do nothing to change the system or challenge corporate power at all.

Then, if you throw all that shit out, and think of them as actual human beings, and realize that they are just trying to appeal to the most possible people in their individual states, you know, that thing our representatives are SUPPOSED to do, their actions make perfect sense and don't require some massive conspiracy to obtain some nebulous end that you couldn't describe if your life depended on it.

 

[Vic]

Going back to the Status Quo - Trump is not Changing the System. Why is this so hard to understand? People don't want the Status Quo.

If this is true, that the People don't want a return to the status quo, then why did Progressives just get their fucking asses kicked in the primaries? Why is that so hard to understand?

I have an answer for you if you're willing to listen. It's not that people are rejecting your goals, it's that they're rejecting your tactics.

As I was just saying, what have you ever done to sway Democrats to your cause except attack them? You're literally marginalizing your own movement with purism and yet shocked and hurt to discover you're losing. That makes no sense.

 

[dank69]

Going back to the Status Quo - Trump is not Changing the System. Why is this so hard to understand? People don't want the Status Quo.

Yeah, it isn't like Trump has put us in a position where we aren't even sure if Congress will have any authority to investigate the executive branch by the end of this summer.

 

[sandorski]

If this is true, that the People don't want a return to the status quo, then why did Progressives just get their fucking asses kicked in the primaries? Why is that so hard to understand?

I have an answer for you if you're willing to listen. It's not that people are rejecting your goals, it's that they're rejecting your tactics.

As I was just saying, what have you ever done to sway Democrats to your cause except attack them? You're literally marginalizing your own movement with purism and yet shocked and hurt to discover you're losing. That makes no sense.

The Straw Polls show that the Voters wanted Bernie's Policies. They chose Biden on the mistaken idea that he was more Electable, that's why.

 

[Blackjack200]

Then, if you throw all that shit out, and think of them as actual human beings, and realize that they are just trying to appeal to the most possible people in their individual states, you know, that thing our representatives are SUPPOSED to do, their actions make perfect sense and don't require some massive conspiracy to obtain some nebulous end that you couldn't describe if your life depended on it.

I mean, this is a pretty clear distinction. You're saying that they're just honest actors doing everything they can to appeal to as many voters as possible. I'm saying that they're rotten to the core, working for their corporate donors, and not doing anything to appeal to voters except pointing at the Republicans and saying "see? They're even WORSE!"

This is a question of observable reality. People can look at how Democrats actually behave and decide who's theory is more accurate.

 

[pmv]

A few years ago I read that if you stop thinking about the Democratic party in traditional terms (a party that seeks to gain and exercise power), and think of it instead as a party that only exists as a nominal opposition party, providing a fig leaf of an alternative from the unapologetic party of monstrous capitalism, their behavior makes much more sense. Voting for a democrat allows people to feel virtuous and sneer at the Republicans while they do nothing to change the system or challenge corporate power at all.

Where does that leave you, though? Are you a member of an alternative party? The Sparts? The SWP? There's the DSA, I gather. Replacing the Democrats as the opposition seems to be a _monumental_ task. Whatever else happens, you have to start from the bottom-up, persauding the electorate to support different things. Big shocks like the financial crisis shift people's ideas, but people are naturally conservative and it takes a lot of sustained shocks for people to really want change.

I dunno, I'm just depressed about the state of the Labour Party. It seems to be terminally divided now, the old uneasy working-coalition seems to have collapsed entirely and now everyone hates each other.

 

[NostaSeronx]

Are you a member of an alternative party?

GPEW/GPUS/GPOC/GPIA seems like a good long-term choice for the foreseeable future.

Well-educated, youth-driven, international-inclusive-politics, actually made for the sustainability of Earth, etc. Instead, of think tank driven tactics that lead to the candidate selected being an inept conservative.

 

[Blackjack200]

Where does that leave you, though? Are you a member of an alternative party? The Sparts? The SWP? There's the DSA, I gather. Replacing the Democrats as the opposition seems to be a _monumental_ task. Whatever else happens, you have to start from the bottom-up, persauding the electorate to support different things. Big shocks like the financial crisis shift people's ideas, but people are naturally conservative and it takes a lot of sustained shocks for people to really want change.

I dunno, I'm just depressed about the state of the Labour Party. It seems to be terminally divided now, the old uneasy working-coalition seems to have collapsed entirely and now everyone hates each other.

I think in terms of electoral politics you support whoever you can that is not a corporate stooge. You look for opportunities, and when they present themselves you try to make the most of them.

It's worth pointing out that to this day, no one really knows where the Sanders movement came from. He was an obscure politician pitching a platform that was actually nothing new, universal health care and working class wage increases are table stakes for progressives. Why did the movement take off in 2016? How did it get traction? We don't really know. Corbyn and Sanders were extraordinarily unusual in their sincereity and commitment to working class struggle. But both are gone now, and it's up to the movements that they headed to continue on.

 

[dank69]

I mean, this is a pretty clear distinction. You're saying that they're just honest actors doing everything they can to appeal to as many voters as possible. I'm saying that they're rotten to the core, working for their corporate donors, and not doing anything to appeal to voters except pointing at the Republicans and saying "see? They're even WORSE!"

This is a question of observable reality. People can look at how Democrats actually behave and decide who's theory is more accurate.

No. See? You aren't listening. You are injecting your own perspective into what I said. I never said anything about honesty from the politicians. Sure, I wish for honesty. I think we should all call out dishonesty from our own side whenever we encounter it, but again with a big flashing caveat attached that Republicans are worse, especially when it comes to honesty. When we encounter it the objection should take the following simple format: "hey asshole! we don't have to lie to win or make a point or support our policies. knock it the fuck off!"

That aside, what I actually said is that they are working to appeal to as many people as they can. In order to do that they have to play shit politics, telling specific people what they want to hear, whether they mean it or not. If you are getting your panties in a twist over something a candidate said in a room full of donors then you are wasting your energy on nonsense. And again, I wish it weren't this way but this is the reality of politics in America. There are plenty of Democrats pushing for meaningful changes that would improve the situation, enough to get HR1 through the house even. We need to get enough of them elected to actually get those changes into law before you can start blaming them for not fixing anything.

More importantly though is that we need to send as many GOP politicians packing as we can, until they can't even come withing sniffing distance of power anymore. Only then will they possibly consider pulling up. And if they don't, we fracture the Dems into progressives and centrists, both of whom should be able to still destroy and GOP challenge without even trying.

 

[Blackjack200]

When we encounter it the objection should take the following simple format: "hey asshole! we don't have to lie to win or make a point or support our policies. knock it the fuck off!"

That objection is meaningless without a credible threat to stop supporting the politician.

 

[sandorski]

No. See? You aren't listening. You are injecting your own perspective into what I said. I never said anything about honesty from the politicians. Sure, I wish for honesty. I think we should all call out dishonesty from our own side whenever we encounter it, but again with a big flashing caveat attached that Republicans are worse, especially when it comes to honesty. When we encounter it the objection should take the following simple format: "hey asshole! we don't have to lie to win or make a point or support our policies. knock it the fuck off!"

That aside, what I actually said is that they are working to appeal to as many people as they can. In order to do that they have to play shit politics, telling specific people what they want to hear, whether they mean it or not. If you are getting your panties in a twist over something a candidate said in a room full of donors then you are wasting your energy on nonsense. And again, I wish it weren't this way but this is the reality of politics in America. There are plenty of Democrats pushing for meaningful changes that would improve the situation, enough to get HR1 through the house even. We need to get enough of them elected to actually get those changes into law before you can start blaming them for not fixing anything.

More importantly though is that we need to send as many GOP politicians packing as we can, until they can't even come withing sniffing distance of power anymore. Only then will they possibly consider pulling up. And if they don't, we fracture the Dems into progressives and centrists, both of whom should be able to still destroy and GOP challenge without even trying.

You are making a good argument for electing Dem Members of Congress, but not for Biden.

 

[Jhhnn]

How successful do you suppose progressives will be at changing the system without even that "nominal opposition?"

And have you considered the possibility that your own tactic of marginalizing your own movement by constantly attacking your only potential allies, instead of working to persuade them to your cause, is your own virtuous way of pretending to be doing something while ensuring nothing is done to change the system?

Think about it, while you keep doing everything you can to help Trump get re-elected.

I figure he's an insincere poseur & a member of the burn it down faction.

 

[Jhhnn]

You are making a good argument for electing Dem Members of Congress, but not for Biden.

And, uhh, what will those congress people be able to accomplish with Trump as Prez?

 

[eelw]

And, uhh, what will those congress people be able to accomplish with Trump as Prez?

Wishful thinking, but imagine a veto proof dem majority in both branches.

 

[Vic]

The Straw Polls show that the Voters wanted Bernie's Policies. They chose Biden on the mistaken idea that he was more Electable, that's why.

Yes, the voters wanted Bernie's policies... but not Bernie.
There's a number of reasons for that, almost all of which have far more to do with Bernie's most vocal supporters than with Bernie himself. BernieBros really need to take a long hard look in the mirror at how they have damaged his brand, but I don't see that happening. Blame is easier than realizing how and why Trump & co have made "Bernie supporter" synonymous with masked hooligans fighting in the streets, and with Venezuelan-style socialism rather than Scandanavian. How it's because Scandanavian-style socialism is built on the idea of people with conflicting interests working together for their common good instead of demonizing others over often trivial differences of opinion. Bernie, I believe, understands this, but his most vocal supporters absolutely do not. As you 2 just keep proving as you keep attacking your allies.

Meanwhile, if the youth really had come out to vote on Super Tuesday as Bernie promised, then Bernie would be the nominee. But the youth didn't come out to vote. Again. And no party can ever hope to win an election by depending on a group who won't reliably go to the polls. As the Democrats have learned time and time again before this.
And this time, the stakes are simply too high.

 

[sandorski]

And, uhh, what will those congress people be able to accomplish with Trump as Prez?

Impeachment.

 

[Blackjack200]

Yes, the voters wanted Bernie's policies... but not Bernie.
There's a number of reasons for that, almost all of which have far more to do with Bernie's most vocal supporters than with Bernie himself. BernieBros really need to take a long hard look in the mirror at how they have damaged his brand, but I don't see that happening. Blame is easier than realizing how and why Trump & co have made "Bernie supporter" synonymous with masked hooligans fighting in the streets, and with Venezuelan-style socialism rather than Scandanavian. How it's because Scandanavian-style socialism is built on the idea of people with conflicting interests working together for their common good instead of demonizing others over often trivial differences of opinion. Bernie, I believe, understands this, but his most vocal supporters absolutely do not. As you 2 just keep proving as you keep attacking your allies.

Meanwhile, if the youth really had come out to vote on Super Tuesday as Bernie promised, then Bernie would be the nominee. But the youth didn't come out to vote. Again. And no party can ever hope to win an election by depending on a group who won't reliably go to the polls. As the Democrats have learned time and time again before this.
And this time, the stakes are simply too high.

I voted against universal health care because someone was mean to Neera Tanden on Twitter, AMA.

 

[sandorski]

Yes, the voters wanted Bernie's policies... but not Bernie.
There's a number of reasons for that, almost all of which have far more to do with Bernie's most vocal supporters than with Bernie himself. BernieBros really need to take a long hard look in the mirror at how they have damaged his brand, but I don't see that happening. Blame is easier than realizing how and why Trump & co have made "Bernie supporter" synonymous with masked hooligans fighting in the streets, and with Venezuelan-style socialism rather than Scandanavian. How it's because Scandanavian-style socialism is built on the idea of people with conflicting interests working together for their common good instead of demonizing others over often trivial differences of opinion. Bernie, I believe, understands this, but his most vocal supporters absolutely do not. As you 2 just keep proving as you keep attacking your allies.

Meanwhile, if the youth really had come out to vote on Super Tuesday as Bernie promised, then Bernie would be the nominee. But the youth didn't come out to vote. Again. And no party can ever hope to win an election by depending on a group who won't reliably go to the polls. As the Democrats have learned time and time again before this.
And this time, the stakes are simply too high.

Ya, I'm sure it was the Meanies.....everytime you use the term "Bernie Bro" it is itself part of an attack.

People are tired of being ignored and when you use the word "Youth" keep in mind that Bernie dominated the Under 45 Demographic. That is a huge part of the Population.

 

[Vic]

I voted against universal health care because someone was mean to Neera Tanden on Twitter, AMA.

I have no idea who or what you're talking about. Or care.

BTW, I haven't voted yet. My state's primaries are on May 19th.

 

[Vic]

Ya, I'm sure it was the Meanies.....everytime you use the term "Bernie Bro" it is itself part of an attack.

People are tired of being ignored and when you use the word "Youth" keep in mind that Bernie dominated the Under 45 Demographic. That is a huge part of the Population.

Woosh.. my whole point went right over your head. I use "BernieBros" to distinguish that crowd of extremists from the regular Bernie supporters, who are not only the overwhelmingly majority of Bernie supporters, but are also great people who pledged to accept the democratic results and vote Blue.

And if they're so tired of being ignored then why won't they speak in the only way that politicians can listen.. by voting? That huge part of the population are the least reliable of voter groups, and there is no excuse for their lack of voter turnout. Quite frankly, I think it sucks when a candidate puts his ass on the line to help the people who most need it, the youth, our country's future, and then that candidate loses because the youth he wanted to help don't show up to the polls. I'm 48 and I've voted in every election I could since I turned 18. And I spent years of my life complaining about the gerontocracy until I realized the real reason it exists: because young people don't vote, and old people do.

 

[dank69]

That objection is meaningless without a credible threat to stop supporting the politician.

The credible threats come during the primaries for now. There are more important things at stake than a politician who lies like every other politician, like a politician who is flat incapable of telling or facing the truth.

You are making a good argument for electing Dem Members of Congress, but not for Biden.

It works equally well for Biden, unless you really think Biden is worse than Trump, in which case we are wasting our time because I will never be able to penetrate that kind of crazy.

 

[sandorski]

The credible threats come during the primaries for now. There are more important things at stake than a politician who lies like every other politician, like a politician who is flat incapable of telling or facing the truth.

It works equally well for Biden, unless you really think Biden is worse than Trump, in which case we are wasting our time because I will never be able to penetrate that kind of crazy.

For the most part there is no difference.

 

[dank69]

For the most part there is no difference.

Yeah I bet Biden would tell 10000 documented public lies in his first 3 years as President. I bet he would pressure foreign governments into digging dirt up on his political opponents. I bet he would fire anyone competent simply to surround himself with loyal yes men. I bet he would fire people investigating him or his friends. I'm sure he would sell America out to SA and Russia in exchange for personal gain.