AT World of Warcraft Thread (Cataclysm, Where do you play, General BS and all that)

[Davidpaul007]

This is why I'm forgetting Fury and going with Arms.

I wouldn't dismiss fury that easily. I know it sounds like alot but with decent gear you can get upwards of 20% pretty quickly. I think I had 2 +20 hit gems in my gear and I reforged all my haste to +hit and I was at 21% hit and doing great damage in heroics. Remember that the +27% hit is so you never miss a raid boss. For a heroic boss or lvl 80 mob it's less, I just don't remember how much less. Also, the +hit % for Fury warriors automatically includes the +3% from precision.

 

[lupi]

Haven't done WG in months, but if I went and checked the log I doubt it would say anything less than before where horde won 99.9% of offense and 90% on defense.

 

[Malladine]

I wouldn't dismiss fury that easily. I know it sounds like alot but with decent gear you can get upwards of 20% pretty quickly. I think I had 2 +20 hit gems in my gear and I reforged all my haste to +hit and I was at 21% hit and doing great damage in heroics. Remember that the +27% hit is so you never miss a raid boss. For a heroic boss or lvl 80 mob it's less, I just don't remember how much less. Also, the +hit % for Fury warriors automatically includes the +3% from precision.

It's kind of embarrassing, I just reforged minister's number one legplates -hit +haste

I'm sitting at i think 10 or 11% +hit now, maybe 12% +haste. I'm Goresplash on Wildhammer btw. Orc Warrior, if anyone wants to check that out. Been running Normal Pit of Saron and Halls of reflection lately hoping for the Malice (?) sword and two-ton hammer to drop (retarded they don't drop in Heroic), since as you'll see my weaponry is crap. I still manage ~4k dps though, plus it's fun.

And to add to the WG conversation - Wildhammer horde also win 90% of the time to the point that all alliance players have double or triple normal HP and get rolled over so easily I don't join WG anymore - too boring.

 

[Scotteq]

I do have duel spec but my 2nd spec is for tanking and I don't want to give up that ability. Also, switching between Fury and Arms is more painful now that you need 27% +hit on Fury (that is for a raid boss, not sure how much less you need to never miss a lvl 80).

The rule for Fury has always been to get to the same 8% from gear an Arms or ProtWar would go for. That'd be 11% with Precision maxxed. From there, +Hit is no longer a high priority stat - More is better, but at that level it's better to work on hitting Harder, rather than more often. So Yes, you will still miss with some of your auto attacks. But No, it's not a big deal. The rule of thumb is "...if you have Rage issues, then you need more +Hit. If Not, then work on Strength and Crit.."

It's kind of embarrassing, I just reforged minister's number one legplates -hit +haste

You can forge it back.

 

[RatboyX]

Originally Posted by Zarhym (Source)
We have pushed a hotfix to improve hunter damage.

Specifically, we increased the damage of the signature abilities (Chimera Shot, Explosive Shot and Kill Command) by 15-25%. This will both improve overall damage-dealing and make sure that these abilities are prioritized higher than other shots. We think this will bring hunters to a good enough state until they hit 85. Aspect of the Fox and Cobra Shot solve some specific issues at higher levels. Marksman hunters may still trump Survival and Beastmaster hunters until they’re 85, since their rotations rely a little on Cobra Shot.

Hey Lupi, can you tell me where to find this Blue post? Are they saying they pushed a hot fix to the live servers or the PTR/Beta? Because I did more testing last night on Survival and did NOT see any improvement. Possible not pushed on the live yet? Oh god please tell me they haven't pushed it on the live yet and we can expect better DPS.

Their statement

We think this will bring hunters to a good enough state until they hit 85.

really shows how badly the new system is treating The Hunter class.

Good enough until they hit 85? Again Hunters are expected only to be "Good enough" for 84 levels. At the same time Blizzard has given large increases to alll the other pure DPS classes.

I've already told my Guild Raid leader that if they have more than 10 signed up for our last push at ICC 10 man normal they should leave me out of the runs until things change for Hunters. Prior to the patch no way they were running without my hunter, now there are better options.

Drathor on Shadowsong if anyone is interested in looking at my gear just to see that it's not junk and I'm not just a random troll.

 

[RatboyX]

never mind I found it on the WoW DPS forums... it's dated the 13th which would have been prior to my last raid. In other words it still sucked for me.

People are telling me I need to "Get used to the new system" But that's NOT it. I don't have any trouble keeping my shot priority in line. I don't ever run out of focus and in fact need to dump focus on occasion when playing Survival.

All things being equal as far as my play skill I dropped from second or third on the DPS list in my guild, and dropped from fist or second in total damage done per raid, to coming in a close tie to our DK tank and slightly ahead of the Warrior tank. The only people I out DPS by a large margin are the healers.

I've gone the "Re forge Crit to Mastery route" Done one piece of gear at a time then tested to see if I hit a sweet spot but that didn't help. Tried all the glyphs recommended by EJ and Hunters Union and all the other good sites. Tried numerous shot priorities.

But hunters will only be "Good Enough" for 84 levels so I guess I shouldn't complain.....

Never going to recommend Hunter as a class for anyone starting out, it will take too long to become viable.

I hear other people tell me.. "well my hunter buddy did okay DPS" or "Well your just not a good player" or any number of things. I simply don't buy it.

All the high end hunters on my server that were running as MM have jumped to BM.... My guess as to why is that their DPS took a dump and they are setting up BM so they can have it ready for leveling to 85 when CATA comes out.

 

[Moonzi]

I kid

I'm asking our hunters now if they saw a huge downturn in dps etc...and if they have any advice that's not obvious, I'll let you know what\if they say anything.

MMO said it was a hotfix done yesterday BTW.

 

[Malladine]

The rule of thumb is "...if you have Rage issues, then you need more +Hit. If Not, then work on Strength and Crit.."

Ah so my +hit is ok for now. Any opinions on the priority of Haste now? Does haste affect any warrior abilities/mechanics eg Paladin crusader strike or is it still just a flat attack speed increase?

Also, str vs crit?? When is one more important than the other, just looking for opinions there too. I usually lean towards Crit over Strength since I don't have to try too hard to find strength on melee dps gear.

 

[rh71]

did they take away silverwing sentinels rep for WSG? I'm not seeing it increase. I need it to finish Justicar just for the sake of completion... did they take that title away or something?

 

[Scotteq]

Ah so my +hit is ok for now. Any opinions on the priority of Haste now? Does haste affect any warrior abilities/mechanics eg Paladin crusader strike or is it still just a flat attack speed increase?

Also, str vs crit?? When is one more important than the other, just looking for opinions there too. I usually lean towards Crit over Strength since I don't have to try too hard to find strength on melee dps gear.

Haste for Warriors is still just an increase in attack speed/reduction in GCD. Warriors don't have spells. It's not terrible, but STR/Mastery/Crit are more important and most Warriors do not seek Haste gear.

For crit - Once you're firmly north of about 40~45% unbuffed, then the old rule was gem STR unless you could get to very high levels of Armor Pen (70 or 80% from gear, preferably with Trinket procs for more). ArP is now gone, of course. So STR is #1 as long as you're meeting your +Hit goals.

I don't yet know where Mastery fits in for Arms or Fury. At the moment I have none on any toon, except my Warlock.


There is a project called "Rawr" at Elitist Jerks which (used to be able to) model the effects of gear, talents, and gemming on your toon. There is also Simcraft (also Elitist Jerks), which is more accurate, but a lot harder to use. I didn't use them too much, since Rawr 3 is/was broken for Warlocks (my current main**), and Simcraft was annoying to use.

At present, Simcraft is at least mostly updated for 4.**. I haven't seen the same for Rawr, tho.



**My Warrior has been my main for most of the game {160+ days /played on her}. Currently my Warlock (25 Kingslayer, 8/12 Heroic 25), with my Warrior (11/12 + H modes) and Deathknight (10 Kingslayer) both 264 geared, and my Priest (7 or 8/12) trailing with a mix of 245/251/264 stuff.

 

[Davidpaul007]

The rule for Fury has always been to get to the same 8% from gear an Arms or ProtWar would go for. That'd be 11% with Precision maxxed. From there, +Hit is no longer a high priority stat - More is better, but at that level it's better to work on hitting Harder, rather than more often. So Yes, you will still miss with some of your auto attacks. But No, it's not a big deal. The rule of thumb is "...if you have Rage issues, then you need more +Hit. If Not, then work on Strength and Crit.."

You can forge it back.

I believe you are incorrect on the amount of +hit that is ideal. I can't remember exactly what it was that changed but with 4.0 our mechanics changed so that hit is more important now than it was.

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking the change is that before 4.0 special attacks were treated "special" and were on a different hit table than auto attacks. Thus the need for +hit wasn't as great because you could never "miss" a boss with a MS/BS/WW/etc. after you got to ~8% hit.

I saw a big increase in my DPS when I went from 10 or 12% +hit to 20% (I didn't reforge/regem for a couple of days). However, in that same couple of days there were at least 2 hotfixes that also increased our damage.

I cannot check EJ from here, but I'm sure there more educated opinions on there than my own. Another option is to go fire up recount and whack a training dummy for 5 minutes, then go reforge/regem a few pieces and run the test again and see what you get.

 

[Scotteq]

You're missing Specials at 8%+?? Not just Dodge or Parry? (D and P use the Expertise stat, not hit - 27 not counting talents is the number for a Melee DD who is smart enough to stand behind his target.)

Really!?

Hmmm... I know I've missed the occasional Icy Touch with my DK, since IT is now a spell rather than a weapon based strike. But this is the first I've heard of all special attacks being on the same table as white attacks (i.e. 27% penalty against L83 Bosses for Dual Weilders)

My warrior's off spec is Fury, and today isn't a raid day for me. So I'll go beat up on a dummy later tonight and check the results. If specials are indeed subject to the dual weild penalty, then Arms is clearly going to be the the way to go. At one time you didn't need a weapon to Bloodthirst, either, since it was based purely on Attack Power. But I remember that being changed..

I suspect that isn't true, though, since I'm pretty sure one would have been able to hear the collective Whining from Warriors and Rogues from.. Hell, Mars probably...

 

[kehlsi]

i won't pretend that i knew where hunters stood in end game via experience b/c i haven't done anything on that character except xmute gems everyday since tbc ended. i played it extensively as an alt in vanilla and in tbc and honestly i never understood how much hunters did not make sense until playing it after this latest 4.0.1 patch. as i said, i can't compare it to what the most recent state of the hunter class was but i will say the class makes more sense with the focus system in place, multiple pets, better shot procs and availability and multishot as the primary aoe. i am level 71, leveling with full tier set from TK and SSC and i ran only a few instances pre 4.0.1 as well as quests so i do have something to compare it to. overall i'm enjoying my hunter again (enough to actually start leveling it in northrend again)

 

[Scotteq]

I like focus for leveling on my little Hunter (just dinged 50), since I don't have to drink any more. And I really like having my 3 (at this level) favorite pets available to use/swap/level at will.

But Raiding output and efficiency is a little different - Maybe abilities aren't hitting hard enough. Maybe Hunters need more Haste for faster focus regen. Maybe a combination. I haven't seen any complaints in guild about it, but we're a pretty quiet bunch to begin with, and the guild's 'culture' is that it's best for individuals to quietly get on with fixing whatever problems.

 

[crystal]

It's kind of embarrassing, I just reforged minister's number one legplates -hit +haste

I'm sitting at i think 10 or 11% +hit now, maybe 12% +haste. I'm Goresplash on Wildhammer btw. Orc Warrior, if anyone wants to check that out. Been running Normal Pit of Saron and Halls of reflection lately hoping for the Malice (?) sword and two-ton hammer to drop (retarded they don't drop in Heroic), since as you'll see my weaponry is crap. I still manage ~4k dps though, plus it's fun.

And to add to the WG conversation - Wildhammer horde also win 90% of the time to the point that all alliance players have double or triple normal HP and get rolled over so easily I don't join WG anymore - too boring.

If you got extra Honor Points, then you could buy ilvl 264 weapons from arena vendor. It said you need arena rating but don't worry about that. Just buy it and use. It is a pvp weapon but it might hold you over until the stuffs you want drop.

 

[Malladine]

You're missing Specials at 8%+?? Not just Dodge or Parry? (D and P use the Expertise stat, not hit - 27 not counting talents is the number for a Melee DD who is smart enough to stand behind his target.)

Yeah, confirming this, I just ran HoR @ lunch and according to recount I had 0 misses with all of my specials, 13.5% miss with "Melee" which is normal attacks... :/
I really did feel a lack of rage, but that might be my playstyle, can never have too much rage?!

crystal: good call - i'll check that out. How much honor for the 264 weapons? I did just win Mourning Malice from HoR - ilvl 219, an upgrade from Hammer of Grief

 

[Davidpaul007]

You're missing Specials at 8%+?? Not just Dodge or Parry? (D and P use the Expertise stat, not hit - 27 not counting talents is the number for a Melee DD who is smart enough to stand behind his target.)

Really!?

Hmmm... I know I've missed the occasional Icy Touch with my DK, since IT is now a spell rather than a weapon based strike. But this is the first I've heard of all special attacks being on the same table as white attacks (i.e. 27% penalty against L83 Bosses for Dual Weilders)

My warrior's off spec is Fury, and today isn't a raid day for me. So I'll go beat up on a dummy later tonight and check the results. If specials are indeed subject to the dual weild penalty, then Arms is clearly going to be the the way to go. At one time you didn't need a weapon to Bloodthirst, either, since it was based purely on Attack Power. But I remember that being changed to use the Specials hit table because PvPers complained about Fury Warriors.... well, Biting them while disarmed.

I suspect that isn't true, though, since I'm pretty sure one would have been able to hear the collective Whining from Warriors and Rogues from.. Hell, Mars probably...

Well said...
But this is the first I've heard of all special attacks being on the same table as white attacks (i.e. 27% penalty against L83 Bosses for Dual Weilders)"

You are correct, the outcry on the Warrior forums has been deafening (at least before the hotfixes that were implemented in the last week).

However, I would have to disagree (again lol) with your statement "then Arms is clearly going to be the the way to go". From my albeit limited perspective, I think Fury is quite a bit better than arms for DPS right now. I switched to Arms a couple days ago and felt like I was all of the sudden hitting with a limp noodle. At least I can bodyslam someone and then hit them with the wet noodle though...

I have not taken the time to beat on a dummy with either spec. I know that as Arms in heroics I'm only doing around 3k dps according to other peoples recounts and as Fury I was somewhere around 5k (within the last week). Although I should add that my Arms build was done with PvP in mind and my Fury build was for DPS. Since I have been messing with Arms and doing some reading on the forums it is evident I wasn't really optimizing my DPS with Fury yet (ie, I was actually using slam and not macroin'g Heroic strike in with other abilities) so I expect my Fury DPS to go up even further when I L2p.

I'm actually wanting to go back to Fury already but I am wanting to learn how to be effective with Arms in PvP first (I want that wrathful axe!). The self healing and bodyslam have both proven useful in some limited PvP within the last couple of days.

 

[Davidpaul007]

Yeah, confirming this, I just ran HoR @ lunch and according to recount I had 0 misses with all of my specials, 13.5% miss with "Melee" which is normal attacks... :/
I really did feel a lack of rage, but that might be my playstyle, can never have too much rage?!

crystal: good call - i'll check that out. How much honor for the 264 weapons? I did just win Mourning Malice from HoR - ilvl 219, an upgrade from Hammer of Grief

The Wrathful weapons are about 2500 honor last I checked.

EDIT: If memory serves I had tons of rage when my hit was around 20% with Fury.

 

[Malladine]

The Wrathful weapons are about 2500 honor last I checked.

EDIT: If memory serves I had tons of rage when my hit was around 20% with Fury.

2500, ugh right

And yeah I can see all that hit being great for +rage. Which = damage....

What do you mean by Arms self heal btw?

 

[Aikouka]

Special attacks while Titan Gripping two 2H weapons should not affect your yellow hit rate unless TG is bugged.

I tried my Hunter out a bit ago and it's not too bad. My Devilsaur was bugged initially, but I was able to summon him after moving him in and out of my stable. The priority seemed simple enough to me for BM and I didn't really have any trouble executing it. My gear is terrible though .

I finally got some daggers for my Undead Rogue and whoo-boy, do I love getting back to my Assassination spec! Since killing a mob doesn't differ much from certain aspects of PVP, the 120 energy combined with Overkill makes dispatching enemies very fast... unless they're immune to poisons (stupid wind elementals). I also forgot that mining now provides experience points. I was surprised when I first mined Cobalt and saw 2.6k exp pop up .

I haven't encountered any hostile Alliance yet, but I'm sure they'll show up .

 

[Scotteq]

Well said...
But this is the first I've heard of all special attacks being on the same table as white attacks (i.e. 27% penalty against L83 Bosses for Dual Weilders)"

You are correct, the outcry on the Warrior forums has been deafening (at least before the hotfixes that were implemented in the last week)....

I did see the outcry, but that was because damage went down (temporarily lost almost 1/5th on my Fury spec, for sure.) But that was fixed, I now do more than I did before, and it wasn't due to any change in miss rate anyhow..

Admittedly, I don't pay too much attention to the O-Boards. (Mostly because it's more juvenile and even less fact based than Politics and "News" is. Just that you're not allowed to swear at people there, but can here.( But I went ahead and pulled out my 'Droid and browsed over there. Went back 10 pages on the Warrior forums, and don't see anything about the miss rate for Specials changing.

I do see lots of whining, but just the "normal" type - i.e. "HAHAAHAHHHAHAHAAAWARRI~DURRZZZZ SUCKK.. and OMG I Got WTFPWNT in PvP... and the usual spew. I did find 1 reference to 27% hit cap - but (1) it's just for white damage, and (2) everyone told him what we said here, which is "don't worry about it".

I don't see anything where specials were changed to use the Dual Weild hit table.

 

[Malladine]

To reiterate, I am at 11% +hit and have 0 misses with specials and 13.5% misses with normals.

 

[Davidpaul007]

To reiterate, I am at 11% +hit and have 0 misses with specials and 13.5% misses with normals.

Hrm...maybe the change was something to the hit penalty for an offhand weapon...I wish I could link some threads on the subject but can't get to those forums at work. There were quite a bit last week when 4.0 went live and I read that +hit is the best stat for (raid) DPS until you get it up to 27%.

As for the self healing in Arms, in the first tier there is a talent that buffs all your self healing by a certain % and in the 2nd teir you have 2nd wind. There may be other talents that aren't coming to me--aren't there some victory rush talents further down the tree? There is also blood craze in Tier 1 of the Fury tree now that is accessable to an Arms warrior--I think I took that with Cruelty.

 

[Scotteq]

Hrm...maybe the change was something to the hit penalty for an offhand weapon...I wish I could link some threads on the subject but can't get to those forums at work. There were quite a bit last week when 4.0 went live and I read that +hit is the best stat for (raid) DPS until you get it up to 27%..

I spent some time reading through the Warrior threads on Elitist Jerks - There is some debate on +Hit or +Haste: +Hit Wins...but only just. So if you have gear with a bunch of Haste, you may want to consider reforging Haste to Hit as a Fury Warrior if you want to Min/Max your stats. (Mastery got Nerfed, and isn't worth pursuing at the moment)

So according to EJ the progression becomes: STR is still the #1 stat. Reforge Haste into Hit, if the gear has no Hit already. Reforge Haste into Crit if the gear *does* have hit. Do not waste time on Mastery.

Gems should be - Red: STR Yellow: STR/Crit Blue: STR/HIT Replace Relentless with Chaotic for your Meta.

The general consensus on Fury builds is 3/31/2

NEW: 5.6% (173 expertise rating) gets no Dodges. This is a reduction in the amount required.



{edit} Reminder - The above progression is for FURY.

The Hit cap for Arms is still 8% for both Specials and Auto Attacks. As Arms, any +Hit over 8% should be reforged into Expertise (if you're not at 5.6% counting talents), else Crit or Haste.

 

[nageov3t]

shaman leveling feels OP... I mean, I feel like a DK.

killing 2-3 yellow mobs and never going below 90% health or mana. shit's dying before I even have a gcd to use a shock.