AT World of Warcraft Thread (Cataclysm, Where do you play, General BS and all that)

[AznAnarchy99]

Whats best for PvP right now? I got a druid, DK, and pally and I dont like healing.

 

[Scotteq]

Whats best for PvP right now? I got a druid, DK, and pally and I dont like healing.

I'd say Boomkin, given how Casters are raping everything in sight at the moment. Either that or Protadin, since running around being Super annoying to everyone is invariably worth big grins.

 

[nageov3t]

so, do enhance shaman need +int at all anymore?

I thought I remembered a talent that applied int to AP, but not seeing it anymore... guessing I'll have to suffer through 30 levels of badly itemized gear :/

 

[Davidpaul007]

I spent some time reading through the Warrior threads on Elitist Jerks - There is some debate on +Hit or +Haste: +Hit Wins...but only just. So if you have gear with a bunch of Haste, you may want to consider reforging Haste to Hit as a Fury Warrior if you want to Min/Max your stats. (Mastery got Nerfed, and isn't worth pursuing at the moment)

So according to EJ the progression becomes: STR is still the #1 stat. Reforge Haste into Hit, if the gear has no Hit already. Reforge Haste into Crit if the gear *does* have hit. Do not waste time on Mastery.

Gems should be - Red: STR Yellow: STR/Crit Blue: STR/HIT Replace Relentless with Chaotic for your Meta.

The general consensus on Fury builds is 3/31/2

NEW: 5.6% (173 expertise rating) gets no Dodges. This is a reduction in the amount required.



{edit} Reminder - The above progression is for FURY.

The Hit cap for Arms is still 8% for both Specials and Auto Attacks. As Arms, any +Hit over 8% should be reforged into Expertise (if you're not at 5.6% counting talents), else Crit or Haste.

Did they give a number for +hit and the reasoning as to why we now need more than previously?

 

[Aikouka]

Hit having more value as a Fury Warrior means your white hits have more value. This could be from the rage gained or any on-hit procs (which I don't know of any for white hits). I'm assuming that since rage generation got normalized heavily, more rage from more hits might have something to do with it.

so, do enhance shaman need +int at all anymore?

I thought I remembered a talent that applied int to AP, but not seeing it anymore... guessing I'll have to suffer through 30 levels of badly itemized gear :/

There is no longer a talent that does Int->AP. Agility now provides 2 AP per point.

 

[Scotteq]

Did they give a number for +hit and the reasoning as to why we now need more than previously?

I don't see a firm number. There is no "Official" guide at any of the locations I normally trust for information; and therefore I have to read through hundreds of posts from different people. Your source seems to say otherwise - I would be interested in knowing what that source is and whether it's reasoned and math'd out, or just people stating their opinions.



My experience with the class is, and has been, that capping for white damage isn't necessary or even do~able without giving up a lot of other stats. If you have really great gear and don't mind reforging it I think it's easier to do now. Not to mention you can always reforge it back if you need. Given that it appears you read something strong enough that you're highly focussed on getting to 27%. Then so be it: It's a game and you're fully entitled, so have fun!

 

[Malladine]

IMO there's more to PvP than numbers and math - playing with balls and spirit can pay off too :twisted:

 

[Davidpaul007]

I don't see a firm number. There is no "Official" guide at any of the locations I normally trust for information; and therefore I have to read through hundreds of posts from different people. Your source seems to say otherwise - I would be interested in knowing what that source is and whether it's reasoned and math'd out, or just people stating their opinions.



My experience with the class is, and has been, that capping for white damage isn't necessary or even do~able without giving up a lot of other stats. If you have really great gear and don't mind reforging it I think it's easier to do now. Not to mention you can always reforge it back if you need. Given that it appears you read something strong enough that you're highly focussed on getting to 27%. Then so be it: It's a game and you're fully entitled, so have fun!

Haha, sorry if I'm coming across as "OMG U HAVE TO HAVE 27% HIT OR YOU WILL SUCK"...that's not it at all, just trying to rely what i "thought" was good information.

After our discussion I went home and looked around some forums for a few minutes and I believe the reasoning behind 27% hit was to have steady rage generation so you always have enough for specials--right in line with your earlier good advice to stack +hit until you didn't have rage issues.

I respec'd to Fury (more of a PvP centric build) and did some testing. I started with around 12% hit and beat on the raid dummy for the duration of a single battle shout. No other buffs were on me. I then reforged my gear putting all the haste into +hit and I got up to 19 or 20% hit. My DPS was actually about 100 LOWER than before. This made no sense and I got to wondering if other people beating on the dummy could've put some debuff on it that made a difference in my DPS...I didn't want to go undo my reforge and re do the test though so I chalked it up to a debuff on the target dummy. I ran the 2nd test at least twice and for some reason the 2nd time my dps was another 500 LOWER than the test before. Each time my priority was BT > RB and using HS whenever I had enough rage. I didn't spec for the instant slam so I didn't use it at all and I didn't use any buffs other than battle shout on myself.

So, bottom line my hit went up from 12% to nearly 20% and my haste dropped considerably (I think I started around 14% and went down to 9) but my DPS didn't seem to change that much. In both cases I nearly had enough range to keep BT and HS on cooldown and hitting RB everytime it was available.

Just FYI recount showed me at 4600 dps for my very first test and 4500 for my 2nd test after the reforge. I saw as low as 4000 dps on a subsequent test and I couldn't figure out what happened. This is what led me to believe other people hitting on the dummy was affecting my numbers.

 

[bonkers325]

having an armor debuff up will significantly increase your DPS. FFF lasts 5 minutes and stacks up to 12%, which could be where your DPS increase is coming from.

you should use some of the spreadsheets available at Elitist Jerks forums. there are also guides for each class and spec that will let you know what stat is good and bad. as far as i know, hit rating on your main hand weapon requires 8% hit while your offhand requires 27% hit to not miss. what's your expertise at? you should be soft capped to eliminate dodges as well. getting to 27% is probably a huge DPS loss since you're losing out on other stronger stats like strength, crit, and possibly mastery.

if you have no problems with rage on a test dummy, you probably will be rage capped in a raid environment where WF/IIT are up and you're swinging 10% faster and there's splash damage that can generate rage.

 

[RatboyX]

I kid

I'm asking our hunters now if they saw a huge downturn in dps etc...and if they have any advice that's not obvious, I'll let you know what\if they say anything.

MMO said it was a hotfix done yesterday BTW.

Hey I appreciate the effort and will be glad for ANY help offered… even if they simply say, “OY this guy just sucks!” One thing I THINK I’m seeing is a gear scaling issue

My gear was decent for running ICC 10 man normal. I have a WoW heroes score of 3111and that equates to somewhere in the 6300 to 6500 GS on the add on’s.

My gear doesn’t suck but it’s not super high end either. I’m hit capped, without any HIT gems and have AGI in almost every other gem slot. I have all the recommended enchants from WoW Heroes.

All the theory crafters however are in 10 and 25 man heroic ICC gear running a minimum of 400 points higher with their WoW heroes gear score than I have.

I've done a lot of testing on the practice dummies and the best numbers I could come up with show a much bigger gap in my pre and post patch DPS than the theory crafters are reporting. While this is only empirical evidence for my belief that I am experiencing a gear scaling issue I strongly believe it to be the case.

So if your Hunters are geared better than I am. IE better than 3111 gear score, I’m betting they won’t be hit as hard as I was. It will be interesting to see what they say actually.

When I look at the shamans with similar gear score to me doing 19K DPS on ICC trash MOB groups and Critting MOBs for 33K Is it any wonder that I feel Hunters have been a bit trashed?

Even pre patch my Volley would do 9 or 10 K DPS on ICC trash mobs… well Volley is gone now.

My Kill Shot that would crit for over 25 K, is now critting AT BEST at 10 K. oh sure I have the KS Glyph that lets me fire again if the MOB doesn’t die, but I burn a second GCD to use it and I still don’t get the same damage as I did with one KS pre patch.

Please… and I’m serious about it, ask your hunters what they think.

I was an adequate hunter prior to the patch… now not so much. Is it me or the new system? Every night I’m at the practice dummies trying to see if it’s me.

Last night I looked at my recount data after a long test, I had improved steady shot up 100 % of the time. That’s something that people say you MUST do and I am making it happen. So I think I’m getting the focus system down.

Obviously keeping Improved Steady Shot active on the dummy is entirely different than doing it in a raid, but I know HOW to do it.

 

[Moonzi]

Here's what one of them wrote when I asked about a decline in DPS. They are in 277 gear:

Survival as far as I can tell is about on par. BM and Surv will be much better at like 81-82 with Cobra Shot...not sure when it will come into effect because I am bad at reading. The MM is still supposedly #1 for raiding atm. I think the crying is a reflection of some of the classes getting fairly significant dps bonuses with the patch where hunters did not tend to get the same buffs.

Specifically with Surv we lost 2 shots, and maybe added Arcane shot back into the rotation, depending on who you read. The whole focus thing is very difficult to learn although Im sure we'll get used to it. I run out of focus before even getting once through a 4 shot rotation.

For example

In the past, it was Mark, explosive shot, black arrow, serpent sting, aimed shot, steady shot...move a bit? no big deal, weave shots as cooldowns on stings expired, steady shot while waiting on times (which was usually no more then 2 before something was ready or off GCD.

Now it's Mark, explosive shot, black arrow, serp sting...wham, out of focus..have to move for some reason..can't regen focus when moving (steady shot speeds regen but its on a timer you cannot move while using it)..omg no focus, explosive shot is off GCD..stand still, steady shot steady shot...Explosive is ready and I have focus...steady shot move steady shot explosive...move steady one of the stings ...move, no focus, no focus...explosive...no focus no focus..QQ no focus

It's a little more chaotic, if its a NON movement fight then I think you find that survival plays more like MM now, where instead of just mashing buttons on a cooldowns you pace out your shots and do better with the regen..similar to the 1123, 1123 on maly you just go slow and it works out.

 

[RatboyX]

Just FYI recount showed me at 4600 dps for my very first test and 4500 for my 2nd test after the reforge. I saw as low as 4000 dps on a subsequent test and I couldn't figure out what happened. This is what led me to believe other people hitting on the dummy was affecting my numbers.

Okay well I need to ask what was your DPS pre Patch?

I’m hitting anywhere from a low of 5000 DPS on the test dummies to a high of 5700 with my hunter and I’m still dead last in DPS in guild when we raid.

Are you running ICC 10 man normal at all? If so what is your DPS in an actual raid?

Could it be that Warriors and Paladins have suffered even more than Hunters in this patch?

We don’t have any Warrior or Paladin DPS in our Raid group, but the Mage, Loc, Rogue, Druid, DK (DPS) and the DK (Tank) all do better DPS than I do.

Hey maybe I should start a raiding guild called “Gimped by the patch”

There is a guild on Shadowsong called

“Your Mom’s A Horde”

Love that one

 

[RatboyX]

Here's what one of them wrote when I asked about a decline in DPS. They are in 277 gear:

Interesting, yes they have better gear than I do as my only 277 gear is my ring form ICC rep. that’s a Kick arse ring for sure…

I think the game shows me at gear level 260. The lowest piece I have is still a 251, most of what I have is 264 or there about. This should be sufficient for running ICC 10 man normal. I routinely pass on mail items dropped in there because I have better. I have the bow from Deathwisper.

Again I think they may be seeing less of a gap because I suspect their DPS is scaling better based on their gear. I agree Movement is a big issue for us. I can keep my focus full on the test dummies, in an actual raid not so much.

Blizzard may be looking only at the math they are putting into the new Hunter system, but WE are the actual play testers. The question for your hunters, do they enjoy the Focus system as it stands TODAY?

Not, “Will it get better in the future.”

I keep asking why anyone would play a hunter if the first 80 to 84 levels aren’t balanced.

Lucky for me I’m in a raiding guild composed of people I know in real life. I doubt there are any guilds recruiting Hunters right now. If I was setting up a raid and I had a choice between a Hunter and a Shaman with identical gear scores the choice is obvious, the Shaman runs the Hunter sits out.

It’s not just Hunters Ego’s being hurt here, we are upset when we see other classes getting massive buffs while our DPS went DOWN… and no one argues that Hunter DPS didn’t go down. As a practical matter this puts us out of contention for a raid spot.

 

[darkewaffle]

way too much

Holy crap it's like you've never been through a major patch before / didn't see this coming a mile off, it happens, it's going to even out. God forbid you go a week while they work on their adjustments.

 

[Aikouka]

http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Alleria&name=Anarano

That's the hunter that I raided with last Sunday. He didn't pull extremely excessive numbers on bosses, but he definitely pulled more than you're saying even with a lower gear score. I think he did around 8k on Festergut 10H ( has a slight bit more movement than on normal ).

I think the new Focus system is fun and actually has some interesting and intrinsic difficulties baked in. Such as you can pop off Arcane Shots in between your spec's main ability, but will you end up dropping your focus too low and be unable to use your special? It adds an interesting level of resource management.

 

[Davidpaul007]

Okay well I need to ask what was your DPS pre Patch?

I’m hitting anywhere from a low of 5000 DPS on the test dummies to a high of 5700 with my hunter and I’m still dead last in DPS in guild when we raid.

Are you running ICC 10 man normal at all? If so what is your DPS in an actual raid?

Could it be that Warriors and Paladins have suffered even more than Hunters in this patch?

We don’t have any Warrior or Paladin DPS in our Raid group, but the Mage, Loc, Rogue, Druid, DK (DPS) and the DK (Tank) all do better DPS than I do.

Hey maybe I should start a raiding guild called “Gimped by the patch”

There is a guild on Shadowsong called

“Your Mom’s A Horde”

Love that one

I've only started playing again within the last couple of weeks so I have no idea what my numbers were pre-4.0 patch--never tested them on a dummy. Keep in mind that my Fury spec was not done to maximize dps--but to try PvP with so I'm surely gimping myself a little bit.

And I have no idea what my raid dps would be since I don't raid...

 

[RatboyX]

Holy crap it's like you've never been through a major patch before / didn't see this coming a mile off, it happens, it's going to even out. God forbid you go a week while they work on their adjustments.

Can you add something more to what you quoted form me so it’s not so out of context and I can tell how to respond?

Been through patches? Yes I’ve been through my share.

Waiting a few weeks to let them fix thing?

Apart from the 25% DPS boost, that if you read EJ at all ends up being a 2 to 3% overall boost because it’s on a shot that we can only use about 6% of the time, Blizzard isn’t planning on fixing anything for hunters pre Cata . They say we will be balanced by 85. That’s from Blue posts on the WoW DPS forum, not just me making things up.

There isn’t anything for me to wait for except to get to level 85. And why would I, or anyone for that matter be happy to play a character for 84 levels before it becomes balanced?

Blizzard knew from Beta testers and then also from feed back from the PTR testers that the hunter system was flawed and they went ahead and implemented it.

If I had the slightest indication that Blizzard intended to fix the issues pre level 85 you would never have heard from me.

 

[RatboyX]

http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Alleria&name=Anarano

That's the hunter that I raided with last Sunday. He didn't pull extremely excessive numbers on bosses, but he definitely pulled more than you're saying even with a lower gear score. I think he did around 8k on Festergut 10H ( has a slight bit more movement than on normal ).

I think the new Focus system is fun and actually has some interesting and intrinsic difficulties baked in. Such as you can pop off Arcane Shots in between your spec's main ability, but will you end up dropping your focus too low and be unable to use your special? It adds an interesting level of resource management.

Well I’ll check out his gear and talents when I get home tonight. I appreciate your help as I’m not just hear complaining, though I’m doing plenty of that as well. If he can pull 8 K DPS on ICC 10 man normal with lower gear score than I have then I’m doing something wrong. What it is I have no idea yet but I have been trying.

 

[Moonzi]

In all honesty we're all beta testers right now. Many changes can and will still come so everyone needs to relax. This is of course just my opinion so take it how you want.

Also, this is the one WoW board without flaming, trolling, and qqing lets not start being like the official forums. This place is my escape from all that.

 

[Scotteq]

I've only started playing again within the last couple of weeks so I have no idea what my numbers were pre-4.0 patch--never tested them on a dummy. Keep in mind that my Fury spec was not done to maximize dps--but to try PvP with so I'm surely gimping myself a little bit.

And I have no idea what my raid dps would be since I don't raid...

As PvP, you're going to need to stack stupid amounts of Resilience - >1200~1400 and more <- if you want to begin to survive. If you're going to be running around wearing Blues or PvE gear then know in advance that you will be a 2 shot kill for just about anyone.

 

[Aikouka]

There isn’t anything for me to wait for except to get to level 85. And why would I, or anyone for that matter be happy to play a character for 84 levels before it becomes balanced?

Well, actually yes. MMOs are not designed around mid level. As long as your character can complete the tasks at hand (leveling, etc), it's considered fine. MMOs are all about the end-game, which is technically ICC right now, but that's only for the next month and a half.

I spend most of my time trying to figure out the newer mechanics rather than worrying about completing nearly antiquated content.

It's just a bummer right now since you're stuck with the old content.

 

[Malladine]

As PvP, you're going to need to stack stupid amounts of Resilience - >1200~1400 and more <- if you want to begin to survive. If you're going to be running around wearing Blues or PvE gear then know in advance that you will be a 2 shot kill for just about anyone.

yeah I have 563 res right now and get murdered unless I have heals or manage to hit some lucky crits and/or get the jump on someone. Rogues and casters are the worst.

I have 1750 honor, might buy wrathful leggings or something...

 

[RatboyX]

In all honesty we're all beta testers right now. Many changes can and will still come so everyone needs to relax. This is of course just my opinion so take it how you want.

Also, this is the one WoW board without flaming, trolling, and qqing lets not start being like the official forums. This place is my escape from all that.

I’m trying to keep positive and not QQ. I’m asking for feed back and I’ve said all along it might be my own problem. To be honest I’ve got more help here than just about any other forum on this topic.

Again I’ve yet to find a hunter say they have anything but a decrease in DPS. So it’s not completely my own problem.

 

[Moonzi]

I wasn't pointing fingers, I was simply stating a feeling I got from a couple posts.

Deep breath.

 

[RatboyX]

Well, actually yes. MMOs are not designed around mid level. As long as your character can complete the tasks at hand (leveling, etc), it's considered fine. MMOs are all about the end-game, which is technically ICC right now, but that's only for the next month and a half.

I spend most of my time trying to figure out the newer mechanics rather than worrying about completing nearly antiquated content.

It's just a bummer right now since you're stuck with the old content.

Yes that’s a very fair statement. I guess it’s a shame I was with a group still trying to finish ICC 10 man normal.

Then again if I were one of the other ranged “Pure DPS” classes the game would still be balanced and I would be doing more DPS than before.

I’ve been looking at EJ and the sites they recommend and I’m following there recommendations. I’ll look at the info that people here have provided… thank you for the help by the way.

Just out of curiosity, how many people here play a Hunter as a main?