Al Franken accused of kissing and groping radio host. Will resign.

[woolfe9998]

Those dozens of people appear to just be repeating what they've heard about a mall ban. In other words, they are just repeating rumors. That's different than "Franken touched me." It's more like "I heard rumors that Franken touched that girl" and counting that as evidence of Franken's guilt. You see the difference between those two statements? A world that treats those statements as equivalent will be necessarily oppressive and evil.

To make matters worse, people who actually have knowledge of a ban list and who was on it aren't confirming anything. It's a piece that treats rumors as fact.



I don't think you can. If "they" is anyone who's trying to be rational about the circumstances and look objectively at what's known, then sure, you can group me with they.

Multiple women have claimed Moore hit on them while they were working at that mall. This one says her complaint is the reason he got banned:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/roy-moore-accuser-banned-mall/story?id=51195632

And these:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...689a9f2d84e_story.html?utm_term=.a127b59243b5

Based on these named sources, I'm rather inclined to credit the New Yorker story.

 

[pauldun170]

So now its ok to give a girl a wedgie? You're part of the problem.

While I don't remember the wedgie, I've apologized to those who may have been impacted by the idea of me giving a wedgie and what that wedgie represents.

 

[BigDH01]

And then the manager said it's not true http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f...ing-roy-moore-despite-reports/article/2640899

Boyle, who managed the center from 1981 to 1996 and plans to vote for Moore in next month's election, said he would have documented any such incident and does not believe the mall has the paperwork to prove any such ban took place.

"We did have written reports and things. But to my knowledge, he was not banned from the mall," Boyle told WBRC in Birmingham, Ala.

Regardless, the New Yorker story went to press on very flimsy evidence.

 

[khon]

What Franken did was wrong, but the idea that it is in any way equivalent to Moore's actions is ridiculous.

Lets take the politics out of it, and just consider what would happen to a normal person is each scenario. If a random person did what Franken did, they would get a warning from the HR department. If they did what Moore did, they would be spending the next several years in prison.

 

[jmagg]

While I don't remember the wedgie, I've apologized to those who may have been impacted by the idea of me giving a wedgie and what that wedgie represents.

Wedgies ruin lives, and can impact undergarment decisions for decades or even lifetimes. #WVLM

 

[zinfamous]

Hey Perk...this thread is about Franken. We dont need "But...but...but...TRUMP!"

Perk was directly responding in a rational, evidence-based manner to an irrational idiot that made an irrational whatabout regarding Trump for no reason.

 

[zinfamous]

And then the manager said it's not true http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f...ing-roy-moore-despite-reports/article/2640899



Regardless, the New Yorker story went to press on very flimsy evidence.

Interesting that this mall manager who has no recollection of an official banning, admits to the existence of written claims and reports filed about Moore...in the same sentence. So, "Not a ban that I recall but yeah, the town knew he was a creep!"

With supporters like this...

 

[BigDH01]

Interesting that this mall manager who has no recollection of an official banning, admits to the existence of written claims and reports filed about Moore...in the same sentence. So, "Not a ban that I recall but yeah, the town knew he was a creep!"

With supporters like this...

Yeah, the guy is a terrible human from all accounts (except evangelicals in Alabama apparently) and I hope this ends up as a permanent departure from politics for him. I'm just trying to be accurate.

 

[WackyDan]

What Franken did was wrong, but the idea that it is in any way equivalent to Moore's actions is ridiculous.

Lets take the politics out of it, and just consider what would happen to a normal person is each scenario. If a random person did what Franken did, they would get a warning from the HR department. If they did what Moore did, they would be spending the next several years in prison.

If I forced my lips against another co-workers as well forced my tongue in her mouth, I'm pretty sure I'd be fired. That is what Franken did. Lot of people are only focusing on the picture... When there is more to it than that. He kissed her under false pretenses and slipped her his tongue.

The difference between Moore and Franken? Franken is admitting it because there is a picture that verifies part of the story making the rest of it have credibility.

 

[WackyDan]

Especially when the absolute word of the victim is that she consented to the kiss.

So many people are just standing around with their pitchforks, they don't take the time to actually read her full sory and think about it.

She consented to what she thought was and should have been a "fake" acting kiss. Franken forced his tongue in her mouth. She consented under false pretenses. You think all those on screen kisses actually have people swapping spit and twirling tongues?

 

[Starbuck1975]

The stuff about Clinton before he was elected was consenting affair with an adult.

Clinton would never been elected with Moore's allegations. Again Dems and centrists would have put their foot down.

Bill Clinton would never had made it to a nomination if social media existed in the 90s, as rumors of his extra-marital affairs and alleged non consensual sexual assaults go back to his time in the Arkansas governor's mansion.

Doesn't matter. Democrat hopefuls are starting to realize that the path to the White House will involve burying the Clinton's.

Senator Gillibrand is the latest to come forward with some pretty strong criticism of President Clinton.

 

[pauldun170]

If I forced my lips against another co-workers as well forced my tongue in her mouth, I'm pretty sure I'd be fired. That is what Franken did. Lot of people are only focusing on the picture... When there is more to it than that. He kissed her under false pretenses and slipped her his tongue.

The difference between Moore and Franken? Franken is admitting it because there is a picture that verifies part of the story making the rest of it have credibility.

He didn't do it with a coworker at his current place of employment.
The incident occurred 11 years ago. He was elected in 2008, 2 years after the photos took place.
In 2006 Al Franken was self employed as an entertainer.
Since he is no longer an entertainer, it is implied that he fired himself over the incident.

Moore has a couple of accusations against him and he is in the hands of voters who may or may not actually care that he liked them young back in 70's and 80's.

 

[WackyDan]

He didn't do it with a coworker at his current place of employment.
The incident occurred 11 years ago. He was elected in 2008, 2 years after the photos took place.
In 2006 Al Franken was self employed as an entertainer.
Since he is no longer an entertainer, it is implied that he fired himself over the incident.

Moore has a couple of accusations against him and he is in the hands of voters who may or may not actually care that he liked them young back in 70's and 80's.

Holy shit... Reach much? I was responding to somebody making the following statement (which was quoted FYI) "Lets take the politics out of it, and just consider what would happen to a normal person is each scenario. If a random person did what Franken did, they would get a warning from the HR department."

You get the context of my reply yet?

You seem to be making excuses for him based on the fact that he isn't an entertainer anymore. He didn't fire himself over the incident. Really? Objectively what he did was unacceptable and borderline sexual assault so how does his career change have any bearing what so ever there? Please explain it again.

 

[Maxima1]

The difference between Moore and Franken? Franken is admitting it because there is a picture that verifies part of the story making the rest of it have credibility.

Franken only admitted to the picture, which doesn't even show him touching her i.e. a prank.

 

[pauldun170]

Holy shit... Reach much? I was responding to somebody making the following statement (which was quoted FYI) "Lets take the politics out of it, and just consider what would happen to a normal person is each scenario. If a random person did what Franken did, they would get a warning from the HR department."

You get the context of my reply yet?

You seem to be making excuses for him based on the fact that he isn't an entertainer anymore. He didn't fire himself over the incident. Really? Objectively what he did was unacceptable and borderline sexual assault so how does his career change have any bearing what so ever there? Please explain it again.

Reaching? Making excuses?
I just wanted to type the "Since he is no longer an entertainer, it is implied that he fired himself over the incident." line.
You are not going to take my simple pleasures from me.
It's not one of my best lines but its not like you are paying anything for it.

 

[Zorba]

She consented to what she thought was and should have been a "fake" acting kiss. Franken forced his tongue in her mouth. She consented under false pretenses. You think all those on screen kisses actually have people swapping spit and twirling tongues?

It depends on the scene and actors. Did she tell him no tongue? If you ask a girl to kiss her, she says yes, so you slip in some tongue have you now assaulted her?

I better get some of my past girlfriends arrested who immediately slipped me the tongue when I went in for a closed month kiss.

The real problem is she didn't want to do the kissing bit, but didn't say no, instead she consented to it. She is basically saying every victim blamers stereotype of "I consented, but after the fact I was unhappy with what happened," or "I consented, even though I didn't really want to, so assault!"

 

[Zorba]

If I forced my lips against another co-workers as well forced my tongue in her mouth, I'm pretty sure I'd be fired. That is what Franken did. Lot of people are only focusing on the picture... When there is more to it than that. He kissed her under false pretenses and slipped her his tongue.

The difference between Moore and Franken? Franken is admitting it because there is a picture that verifies part of the story making the rest of it have credibility.

What false pretenses? Was there no skit?

Further they were not coworker, and they were not at work. They were on a volunteer USO tour on their personal time. This has already been discussed multiple times in this thread.

As far the HR comment you were responding to, if you consensually kissed a co-worker at work, then she went to HR because she didn't like your technique, I think you'd both be in trouble for kissing at work.

She never said she told him no or set boundaries, forcing not found.

 

[werepossum]

The more I read about this the more I think the story is bullshit.

lol You might have wanted to make that point before Franken admitted it. That way you wouldn't look like a buffoon. Well . . . like less of a buffoon. But hey, at least you got to slut shame the victim, eh?

 

[Bitek]

Just imagine all of those women out there, not the famous or celebrity but just your sister your mom your daughter... YOUR WIFE that has been have been or currently are putting up with this from not only those high profiled as Moore and Franken, but in the workplace.
Just talking last night to my 60 year old sis and she was telling how she worked for one Realestate agent that would say things like, "here's the report, in my pants, come and get it".
Or, on the way back from N.Y. on the plane sitting beside some idiot that kept telling my sis how beautiful she was and how they needed to go somewhere together and grab a drink once on the ground.
My sis sat there for the entire 2 hour trip listening to this crap, then when they landed she asked for his phone number so she could call his wife. The guy actually ran off from her in the airport.

This happens all the time to women.
And that is why they usually keep quiet for the most part, because for them this is the way it is out there in society.
So.... damn straight that Franken should resign.
M...

I get all that, and I have a daughter too.

My thought is that this behavior is way too widespread, as you also suggest. Just to start, I can think of a number of stories just from work I've heard through the grapevine. I imagine most of us have experiences with other dudes acting as real creeps. Hopefully none of us have done such things...

However, what do we do with all of this? What is the standard of punishment we are going apply? I'm in 100% agreement that this has to stop. We have to demand better. But what response gets us there?

My fear is that if every action is punishable by destruction of career, then the stakes are so high that the only option is to fight. It will turn into a gender war. Gamergate x1000.
I don't find that healthy and productive.

True criminality needs to be severally punished. Serial harassment needs to be punished. Move down the spectrum.... What about one offs, bad jokes, drunken debauchery, clumsy and overly aggressive passes and pickups? What rules are we playing with here?

None of it's acceptable, but we can't have the nuclear option for everything. There are so many contexts it's hard to draw clear lines, but I feel like we need something like the apartheid Truth and Reconciliation. Separate out the true deviants and abusers, but the everyday sinners need to come clean, ask for forgiveness, and commit to changing your ways.
No more from this point forward.

 

[FerrelGeek]

It has a bearing because Al has a D after his name. If Al had an R after his name, his apology would've been like throwing gas (petrol) on a fire. There wouldn't be talk of a senate inquiry; there'd be a full-on call for his resignation.

For those of you in this forum on the left that've called out Franken and stated that he should resign, my comment on D hypocrisy (that several jumped on) wasn't meant for you. I was strictly speaking of the power brokers and the left leaning folk on here that are trying to minimize what Franken did.

For the record, my view on Franken, Moore, et al is that they deserve their day in 'court'. Trial by accusation sets a dangerous precedent.

Holy shit... Reach much? I was responding to somebody making the following statement (which was quoted FYI) "Lets take the politics out of it, and just consider what would happen to a normal person is each scenario. If a random person did what Franken did, they would get a warning from the HR department."

You get the context of my reply yet?

You seem to be making excuses for him based on the fact that he isn't an entertainer anymore. He didn't fire himself over the incident. Really? Objectively what he did was unacceptable and borderline sexual assault so how does his career change have any bearing what so ever there? Please explain it again.

 

[werepossum]

You must be totally ignorant of Youtube. Being stupid enough to pose like this is in the six to seven figure group.
Moore getting Mall banned for trolling young girls isn't enough proof?

Actually we have a couple people saying that Moore was banned from the mall for trolling young girls. Perhaps you can understand how that is not necessarily the same thing by pretending Moore is still a Democrat.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Looks like Sen. Richard Blumenthal is coming up next.

Linda Flores‏ @LindaFl1257
I’ve waited almost 40 years to tell my story I was an intern at a law office with @SenBlumenthal & was sexually assaulted by richard countless times Told the story to my husband has been eaten me alive since #MeToo

We might need a legislative branch catch all thread.

 

[werepossum]

It has a bearing because Al has a D after his name. If Al had an R after his name, his apology would've been like throwing gas (petrol) on a fire. There wouldn't be talk of a senate inquiry; there'd be a full-on call for his resignation.

For those of you in this forum on the left that've called out Franken and stated that he should resign, my comment on D hypocrisy (that several jumped on) wasn't meant for you. I was strictly speaking of the power brokers and the left leaning folk on here that are trying to minimize what Franken did.

For the record, my view on Franken, Moore, et al is that they deserve their day in 'court'. Trial by accusation sets a dangerous precedent.

I very much agree that trial by accusation sets a dangerous precedent, but (and again, I'm no fan of Franken's) no prosecutor would ever bring such a case to trial against a rich, powerful man. Even a poor, powerless man wouldn't go to trial unless the prosecutor chose to make political points off his hide. We have an admittedly sleazy and demeaning photograph without contact (where's the actual crime?) and a disputed kiss. She says it was disgusting and that the extent of the kiss was a sexual assault; he says he doesn't remember it that way. (It's perfectly possible that both are being honest here.) Even given that there were witnesses, who could possibly know what went on inside their mouths? I'd look disgusted if I had to kiss Al Franken; that wouldn't necessarily mean he stuck his tongue down my throat, it would just mean that I (as apparently, she) find the prospect of kissing Al Franken to be disgusting.

I get the need to stop this behavior; I'm just saying pick your battles. Moore MIGHT be a possible battle, as I believe there may be relaxations of the statutes of limitations when the supposed victim is fourteen. But anyone honestly wanting to stop this behavior needs to understand the impact of bringing an unwinnable case in a very public forum.

In general, I take a very dim view of accusations from years ago where there is no possible way to judge their authenticity with any confidence of accuracy. If the supposed victim puts her career ahead of her personal dignity, she should not expect me to years afterward put much value in the latter in a court of law. Obviously this is different with children, who are inherently powerless and not capable of making good decisions. But powerful men almost always come in for these accusations - Snoop Dog actually took one to court for blood tests to prove his innocence - and while I believe her given Franken's admission, I don't see why I would today consider it of more importance than she considered it at the time.

 

[Thebobo]

lol You might have wanted to make that point before Franken admitted it. That way you wouldn't look like a buffoon. Well . . . like less of a buffoon. But hey, at least you got to slut shame the victim, eh?

Really you don't think I read didn't know that about the picture of her? Man I feel bad that you would think of me being that stupid. But that's your fault because I wasn't talking about the picture was talking about the sticking his tongue down her throat accusation. But carry on.

 

[werepossum]

Jesus dude, you have the guys quote and you deliberately misquote him. Do you really think that is honest or persuasive?

He said UNLESS THE INVESTIGATION FINDS MORE. Do you understand what an investigation means?

That being said, there is no doubt that I would be fired for fake breast grabbing of a female coworker, that is ironclad. That isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison though. I don't know if I would be fired for fake breast grabbing that occurred years ago when I was not with the company.

I am actually on the fence with respect to this one and would like to see the results of an investigation.

In the end, getting rid of Franken won't damage the Democrats because he will simply be replaced with another Democrat. It could damage the Democrats badly if Franken is some kind of serial sex pervert and he remains in. That is why the investigation is so important. If there were half a dozen accusers with more than 30 verifying witnesses (as is the case with Moore) it would be a no-brainer.

Franken pretty much is a serial breast grabber, but it's always been with women who are either okay with it, or because of their profession (actress/model/comedian) pretend to be okay with it. People like Kathy Griffin might honestly be okay with it because it generates publicity and makes her "one of us", thus furthering the career. People like Joy Behar probably hate it, but go along because Franken is "one of us". Either way it's certainly a culture that needs to be abolished. I'm just saying that it does not start and end with Al Franken, nor is he remotely the worst offender.