affleck spars with bill maher & harris over islam

[realibrad]

The first part of problem solving is correctly identifying the problem. The problem isn't all religion is bad, it's not that Muslim religion is bad, the problem is not all Muslims are bad, the problem is a minority (and yes they are a minority) group of Muslims have views that you don't agree with (personally I only have issues with Muslim extremists, aka terrorists).

Now that we have correctly identified the problem we can have a much better discussion about the solution.

And that is why, when discussing issues it's important to be specific, not doing so only clouds the discussion.

And that is what Harris basically said. He said we need to promote the less bad Ideas in Islam, and demean the bad ones. I agree with that idea. The problem, is that the bad ideas right now are very much apart of Islam, and not simply by following Muslims. Its true there are many Muslims who dont follow the crazy parts, but there are many that do.

 

[ivwshane]

And that is what Harris basically said. He said we need to promote the less bad Ideas in Islam, and demean the bad ones. I agree with that idea. The problem, is that the bad ideas right now are very much apart of Islam, and not simply by following Muslims. Its true there are many Muslims who dont follow the crazy parts, but there are many that do.

They aren't apart of Islam just because you say they are, all you are doing is creating a stereotype. No stereotype in history has led to a good solution.

I also agree with Harris, I just think he isn't being specific enough to help his cause.

 

[realibrad]

They aren't apart of Islam just because you say they are, all you are doing is creating a stereotype. No stereotype in history has led to a good solution.

I also agree with Harris, I just think he isn't being specific enough to help his cause.

Wait, so other than stoning, what have I said that you consider a stereotype?

When the religious text matches the bad views, I dont think the connection can be so quickly dismissed. The Quran talks about how to hit your wife the right way, punishment for all sorts of things we would consider horrible in a modern society. So, give me something that you think is a stereotype of Islam that is unfounded that I have advocated.

Also, Harris never got to explain himself, so its understandable why he did not say his part.

But it seems like your argument is that even though a very high percentage of this large group believes in something, its still bad to say that group has a problem, even though its backed by numbers. If this is wrong, please do explain. I'm not saying that all of Islam is bad, but right now, when you compare it to other major religions, it has far more bad ideas.

 

[ivwshane]

Wait, so other than stoning, what have I said that you consider a stereotype?

When the religious text matches the bad views, I dont think the connection can be so quickly dismissed. The Quran talks about how to hit your wife the right way, punishment for all sorts of things we would consider horrible in a modern society. So, give me something that you think is a stereotype of Islam that is unfounded that I have advocated.

Also, Harris never got to explain himself, so its understandable why he did not say his part.

But it seems like your argument is that even though a very high percentage of this large group believes in something, its still bad to say that group has a problem, even though its backed by numbers. If this is wrong, please do explain. I'm not saying that all of Islam is bad, but right now, when you compare it to other major religions, it has far more bad ideas.

It's not a high percentage. It may be a high percentage in a concentrated part of the world but it's not a high percentage. You wouldn't claim obama is doing great because he has a 30% approval rating would you?

All I'm saying and I don't know how to be any more clear, when discussing real issues, be specific in what you are talking about. In your case you could state the problem as:

There are a lot of Muslims in the Middle East who support what I consider babaric customs. We need to stop this.

 

[zinfamous]

It's not a high percentage. It may be a high percentage in a concentrated part of the world but it's not a high percentage. You wouldn't claim obama is doing great because he has a 30% approval rating would you?

WOuld Obama's 30% approval rating be reflected by a group who, as a whole, 30% think it is OK to stone women, or 30% that dont' think it is OK?

What are the opinions of those giving this approval rating--and what is it that Obama is doing that is inspiring this 30% approval rating?

Why are you dragging out ratings as if the only thing that matters in such an argument, is a number with a % sign next to it?

But, I'll bite: I think Obama with a 30% approval rating in x population is something far more admirable "a number" than some other population, where 30% of them think it's OK to stone women and murder people that want to believe in another fairy. So, yea He is doing FUCKING AWESOME in that meaningless comparison that you want to make.

 

[Victorian Gray]

And that is what Harris basically said. He said we need to promote the less bad Ideas in Islam, and demean the bad ones. I agree with that idea. The problem, is that the bad ideas right now are very much apart of Islam, and not simply by following Muslims. Its true there are many Muslims who dont follow the crazy parts, but there are many that do.

No, *this* is what he's saying

"It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world."

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-reality-of-islam

Sounds like someone who is adamantly against everything relating to Islam to me.

 

[ivwshane]

WOuld Obama's 30% approval rating be reflected by a group who, as a whole, 30% think it is OK to stone women, or 30% that dont' think it is OK?

What are the opinions of those giving this approval rating--and what is it that Obama is doing that is inspiring this 30% approval rating?

Why are you dragging out ratings as if the only thing that matters in such an argument, is a number with a % sign next to it?

But, I'll bite: I think Obama with a 30% approval rating in x population is something far more admirable "a number" than some other population, where 30% of them think it's OK to stone women and murder people that want to believe in another fairy. So, yea He is doing FUCKING AWESOME in that meaningless comparison that you want to make.

Whoosh!

 

[zinfamous]

Let me see if I understand your logic here by summerizing your views:

You liked George bush jr since he had an approval rating of 27%.

You approve of spying on Americans since around 20% of Americans do.

You believe in creationism and you think it should be taught in school.

And you also believe 9/11 was caused by Iraq.

Isn't stereotyping a majority of people based on a minority of people fun!

You're being selective about the points you generate from statements that other people have made.

But go back and answer the question:

Is it true that if you polled Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, Buddhists in various parts of the world, representing their large population centers, that they would have similar rather uncivil beliefs in very alarming numbers?

Would they? It's very simple, and it's absolutely worth considering. It's a quantifiable number.
You're busy playing semantics trying to say what is the majority in one population, what isn't the majority in another population, what the meaning of "a lot" is...and it seems to slide into different percentages when it suits you. But all of that is irrelevant, when you can actually quantify it.

No one is talking about the "good muslims," that isn't the point. It is completely unnecessary to bring that up, because that isn't the problem.

I feel that religion, in general, has done some great things. I also know, historically, that religion is a pretty horrible thing when it comes to human rights and human suffering. It has been great at advancing thought, philosophy, and science. It has also been wretched towards restricting all of these things.

Now, within those populations--the religious--which ones have the highest percentage of alarming fundamentalists zealots that are a recognized threat throughout the world, today? It's a simple, cold fact that can't be ignored away with straw men and funny numbers. It is a very real problem, and deflecting the real issue is the practice of cowards.

 

[zinfamous]

Whoosh!

which is basically the sound I hear every time I read one of your posts!



but seriously...directly explain to me why comparing a 30% approval rating of Obama is analogous to 30% of muslims wanting to stone their wives.

meaning: how are the values of these two subjects equal?

..one is a presidential approval rating--based on a guy that people hate when he raises their taxes.
...the other is a social belief system that shows 30% support of ultra violence within a population.

 

[ivwshane]

No, *this* is what he's saying

"It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world."

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-reality-of-islam

Sounds like someone who is adamantly against everything relating to Islam to me.

Wow! That's sounds exactly like a speech a terrorist would give about the US. I guess low level thinking isn't a class issue.

 

[ivwshane]

which is basically the sound I hear every time I read one of your posts!

Lol! I know it is

 

[squarecut1]

Wow! That's sounds exactly like a speech a terrorist would give about the US. I guess low level thinking isn't a class issue.

It is after all Sam Harris. A person with no intellect, no class.

 

[Fern]

-snip-

All I'm saying and I don't know how to be any more clear, when discussing real issues, be specific in what you are talking about. In your case you could state the problem as:

There are a lot of Muslims in the Middle East who support what I consider babaric customs. We need to stop this.

You have a point. The Muslims that I see as a problem as those in the Middle East and Northern Africa. I see no real good reason to lump the rest of the Muslims in with the Arab Muslims. (Although there are some radical Muslim groups outside of the Arab countries they seem few in number and rather small in size.)

Fern

 

[zinfamous]

You have a point. The Muslims that I see as a problem as those in the Middle East and Northern Africa. I see no real good reason to lump the rest of the Muslims in with the Arab Muslims. (Although there are some radical Muslim groups outside of the Arab countries they seem few in number and rather small in size.)

Fern

Right, but does that lessen this as a problem? Even this Sam Harris dude mentioned that in the show--the US muslims are pretty westernized and really don't hold such views--look at the numbers for Turkey--very different (Strangely, the UK muslims seem to adhere to the Egypt standards. I'm not sure why).

Not that you're saying this, but I don't subscribe to the notion that "Well it's happening over there and while that may be a major part of the planet with all sorts of violence and horrible shit happening, it's not happening here so it really isn't a problem."

 

[Fern]

Right, but does that lessen this as a problem? Even this Sam Harris dude mentioned that in the show--the US muslims are pretty westernized and really don't hold such views--look at the numbers for Turkey--very different (Strangely, the UK muslims seem to adhere to the Egypt standards. I'm not sure why).

No, of course it doesn't lessen the problem.

When we're talking about the problems with Muslims I think if we said 'Arab Muslims' we might not have to listen to the typical 'Oh but not all Muslims are bad, it's a small few' type stuff. Obama has said that we're not at war with "Islam". Well we're coming pretty damn close to being at war with Arab Muslims.

Not that you're saying this, but I don't subscribe to the notion that "Well it's happening over there and while that may be a major part of the planet with all sorts of violence and horrible shit happening, it's not happening here so it really isn't a problem."

No, I don't subscribe to that either.

Fern

 

[ivwshane]

Fern gets it.

 

[cyclohexane]

There are no moderate Muslims. The moderate ones who speak up get shot in the face, and are shunned by other Muslims. Damn shame.

 

[Victorian Gray]

There are no moderate Muslims. The moderate ones who speak up get shot in the face, and are shunned by other Muslims. Damn shame.

Why do you write lies like this? What purpose does it serve?

 

[squarecut1]

It may not be wrong to assume that no one here in this thread knows a single Arab Muslim. Has never had any conversation with one, trying to know why there is so much anti Americanism there. What is the history of middle east, what has the west done there over the decades, and so on.

I may also assume that no one here has studied Islam, listened to or talked to any Islamic scholars, have no clue about the theology.

Yes, in absence of all that, very easy to blame radical "Islam" for things that are entirely political in nature.

Live in a bubble, most of us do.

If I could get a penny for every bizarre thing I hear about Islam on this forum, I'd be richer than Bill Gates

 

[Fern]

It may not be wrong to assume that no one here in this thread knows a single Arab Muslim. Has never had any conversation with one, trying to know why there is so much anti Americanism there. What is the history of middle east, what has the west done there over the decades, and so on.

Yes, in absence of all that, very easy to blame radical "Islam" for things that are entirely political in nature.

Live in a bubble, most of us do.

In Europe I worked with one from Egypt.

I've traveled in some Arab Muslim countries, met people and stayed in their homes as guest.

I lived in the 18th arrondissement in Paris. That's where the large Arab community exists.

When the gov is by religion, religion is political. The Catholic church was an example of this in times past.

Fern

 

[squarecut1]

In Europe I worked with one from Egypt.

I've traveled in some Arab Muslim countries, met people and stayed in their homes as guest.

I lived in the 18th arrondissement in Paris. That's where the large Arab community exists.

When the gov is by religion, religion is political. The Catholic church was an example of this in times past.

Fern

Indeed, there is no clear division in Islam between state and church. But what I'm saying is that acts that make the news have nothing to do with Islam. No strand of Islam allows beheading of a journalist or aid worker. Groups like ISIS do not have backing of any properly trained scholars of Islam. Their Islam is self taught and applied, since they have no scholars with credentials in their midst. Same goes for groups like Al-Qaeda or Al Shabab. They have nothing going for them in the long run. For now, they are exploiting the immense inner anger in their societies against the tyrannical dictators, the actions of the west, and so on. But by the very nature of such groups, they lose support over time and burn out.

 

[ivwshane]

It may not be wrong to assume that no one here in this thread knows a single Arab Muslim. Has never had any conversation with one, trying to know why there is so much anti Americanism there. What is the history of middle east, what has the west done there over the decades, and so on.

I may also assume that no one here has studied Islam, listened to or talked to any Islamic scholars, have no clue about the theology.

Yes, in absence of all that, very easy to blame radical "Islam" for things that are entirely political in nature.

Live in a bubble, most of us do.

If I could get a penny for every bizarre thing I hear about Islam on this forum, I'd be richer than Bill Gates

Winner winner!

 

[squarecut1]

There are a lot of Muslims in the Middle East who support what I consider babaric customs. We need to stop this.

If I may, I have a different take on this. Let me try to approach this from a philosophical view point

For countless Muslims around the world, seeing a woman in bikini is as abhorrent as cutting of hands would be to you. Same abhorrence of bikini applies to Orthodox Jews, devout Christians, Hindus etc. They cannot understand why a society would allow a woman to wear a bikini just like you can't understand why a society would cut off the hands of a thief.

Obviously I am neither defending cutting of hands nor condemning bikini, but the point is, different cultures have different values. There are very few things in the world which are *absolute* right or wrong. Killing of an innocent person is one example of a thing which all cultures across all times have considered wrong.

Also, regarding your second point, *we* should never be in the business of changing other cultures. That always results in backlash and is counter productive. I am sure no one would be amused if Orthodox Jews started a movement in America calling for ban on bikinis. Cultures evolve over time on their own. For example, in Saudi Arabia, they have this stupid ban on female driving vehicles - which again is not based on Islam, as Islam does not prohibit women from travelling. But there has been internal pressure building up against that and eventually that ban will go away. On its own. Not through some outside pressure.

 

[ivwshane]

If I may, I have a different take on this. Let me try to approach this from a philosophical view point

For countless Muslims around the world, seeing a woman in bikini is as abhorrent as cutting of hands would be to you. Same abhorrence of bikini applies to Orthodox Jews, devout Christians, Hindus etc. They cannot understand why a society would allow a woman to wear a bikini just like you can't understand why a society would cut off the hands of a thief.

Obviously I am neither defending cutting of hands nor condemning bikini, but the point is, different cultures have different values. There are very few things in the world which are *absolute* right or wrong. Killing of an innocent person is one example of a thing which all cultures across all times have considered wrong.

Also, regarding your second point, *we* should never be in the business of changing other cultures. That always results in backlash and is counter productive. I am sure no one would be amused if Orthodox Jews started a movement in America calling for ban on bikinis. Cultures evolve over time on their own. For example, in Saudi Arabia, they have this stupid ban on female driving vehicles - which again is not based on Islam, as Islam does not prohibit women from travelling. But there has been internal pressure building up against that and eventually that ban will go away. On its own. Not through some outside pressure.

I agree 100%. The scentence you were quoting was me acting like realibrad and making a statement I wouldn't have a problem with, with regards to over generalizing a whole group. You will note that earlier in this discussion I pointed out things we Americans do that others would consider barbaric, basically it was a "those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" kind of thing.

Btw, I think terrorism can only be defeated by propaganda, not by declaring war. You don't change peoples mind who are willing to die and kill for their beliefs by reinforcing their beliefs about you.

 

[squarecut1]

Here is a very good op-ed piece in New York Times about the recent rant of Maher. It makes many good points

What both the believers and the critics often miss is that religion is often far more a matter of identity than it is a matter of beliefs and practices. The phrase “I am a Muslim,” “I am a Christian,” “I am a Jew” and the like is, often, not so much a description of what a person believes or what rituals he or she follows, as a simple statement of identity, of how the speaker views her or his place in the world.

As a form of identity, religion is inextricable from all the other factors that make up a person’s self-understanding, like culture, ethnicity, nationality, gender and sexual orientation. What a member of a suburban megachurch in Texas calls Christianity may be radically different from what an impoverished coffee picker in the hills of Guatemala calls Christianity. The cultural practices of a Saudi Muslim, when it comes to the role of women in society, are largely irrelevant to a Muslim in a more secular society like Turkey or Indonesia. The differences between Tibetan Buddhists living in exile in India and militant Buddhist monks persecuting the Muslim minority known as the Rohingya, in neighboring Myanmar, has everything to do with the political cultures of those countries and almost nothing to do with Buddhism itself.

No religion exists in a vacuum. On the contrary, every faith is rooted in the soil in which it is planted. It is a fallacy to believe that people of faith derive their values primarily from their Scriptures. The opposite is true. People of faith insert their values into their Scriptures, reading them through the lens of their own cultural, ethnic, nationalistic and even political perspectives.