affleck spars with bill maher & harris over islam

[Fern]

Well, I've got news for you, 90%+ of Americans haven't spoken out about the issues in this country .....
-snip-

If they did how would you know it?

It's not as though we all have own TV channels allowing us all to speak out.

Fern

 

[ivwshane]

You misunderstood my statement. You had asked how much of a culture needs to not believe in something, for someone not to generalize. My response was 91%+ must not believe in something for them not to be generalized.

The whole issue, that was raised, was about the backlash when people criticize the Muslim culture. I don't understand why people would defend a culture where horrible views are very common among that group.

Men far too often rape women. all men don't rape women
Christians are far too often homophobic. all Christians aren't homophobic
Muslims far to often hold beliefs that are harmful to society.all Muslims don't hold these beliefs

You aren't getting it.

How do you fight/fix issues if you don't clearly understand the problem?

It's the equivalent of saying guns and the people who use them are bad, therefore all guns should be banned and their owners should be thrown in jail. Of course you wouldn't agree with that statement would you? No you wouldn't.

 

[ivwshane]

If they did how would you know it?

It's not as though we all have own TV channels allowing us all to speak out.

Fern

Lol! That's exactly my point thanks!

 

[ivwshane]

Non-violence and non-slavery are western ideals?

I demand them of people who share our land.

Uh what? Apparently you don't demand that as violence in this country is still happening and happening quite a bit. And yeah sure we no longer have slaves, we just took a little longer than the rest of the world in abolishing it.

FYI, India has the largest population of slaves, they also happen to have the 2nd largest Muslim population. That population only consists of 15% of their total population. Would you like to be a minority and be branded by the actions of the majority? I wouldn't. Nor would I want to be a majority and be branded by the actions of a minority group.

 

[realibrad]

You aren't getting it.

How do you fight/fix issues if you don't clearly understand the problem?

It's the equivalent of saying guns and the people who use them are bad, therefore all guns should be banned and their owners should be thrown in jail. Of course you wouldn't agree with that statement would you? No you wouldn't.

I dont think you are understanding the point I have been trying to make the whole time. When a group holds ideas at a rate that is much higher than any other group, you say the group has a problem. Again, we are not talking about rates of belief in the single digits. Polls are showing majority view of some pretty bad things. Racism only comes into play when views are held that are not backed by reality.

And WTF are you talking about with your gun analogy? When did I ever say Muslims should be put into jail? You are trying to build a straw man and failing pretty badly. My argument, is that Muslims, like Christians have become, need to become more modern in their views. During the dark ages, it was the Muslims that were the center of culture and science. That time has long passed. Modern Islam is far worse in terms of cultural norms.

If your argument, is that Islam does not justify the horrible things that go on in Muslim countries, then you are ignorant. Mainstream Christians long ago started shunning the parts of their bible that justified horrible things. Christians have a long way to go no doubt, but Islam has so much further.

 

[squarecut1]

For all the flak that Christianity and Islam get, this world would be a much more terrible place than it currently is, is there were no Christians and Muslims in it. Such is the source of goodness that is done in the name of these two religions. But people only see the bad, because that is what the news and media focuses on. And let's be honest, most people never step outside than their own sheltered environment. Their "knowledge" of the world is only through media

 

[ivwshane]

The polls are for a select few countries, how fucking hard is that for you to understand! There are a billion Muslims in this world, they all don't live in six countries!

But please! Continue with your ignorance! I need the laugh.

As for bill maher:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...fact-fact-checking-fallout-bill-mahers-musli/

I dont think you are understanding the point I have been trying to make the whole time. When a group holds ideas at a rate that is much higher than any other group, you say the group has a problem. Again, we are not talking about rates of belief in the single digits. Polls are showing majority view of some pretty bad things. Racism only comes into play when views are held that are not backed by reality.

And WTF are you talking about with your gun analogy? When did I ever say Muslims should be put into jail? You are trying to build a straw man and failing pretty badly. My argument, is that Muslims, like Christians have become, need to become more modern in their views. During the dark ages, it was the Muslims that were the center of culture and science. That time has long passed. Modern Islam is far worse in terms of cultural norms.

If your argument, is that Islam does not justify the horrible things that go on in Muslim countries, then you are ignorant. Mainstream Christians long ago started shunning the parts of their bible that justified horrible things. Christians have a long way to go no doubt, but Islam has so much further.

 

[ivwshane]

For all the flak that Christianity and Islam get, this world would be a much more terrible place than it currently is, is there were no Christians and Muslims in it. Such is the source of goodness that is done in the name of these two religions. But people only see the bad, because that is what the news and media focuses on. And let's be honest, most people never step outside than their own sheltered environment. Their "knowledge" of the world is only through media

I call bullshit on that but it's purely opinion no matter what side you are on.

Good people do good things, religion doesn't compel them to do good things.

 

[MongGrel]

Hadn't watched this one till now, was a pretty good melt down there.

 

[squarecut1]

I call bullshit on that but it's purely opinion no matter what side you are on.

Good people do good things, religion doesn't compel them to do good things.

You are entitled to your opinion. I do not wish to argue.

My point is simply that Christianity and Islam are a force for lot more good than bad. I'm talking about the everyday people, not the ones who make the news. The kind who do good, make this world a little better place, without seeking fame or fortune for it. Everyday. Day in day out.

 

[ivwshane]

You are entitled to your opinion. I do not wish to argue.

My point is simply that Christianity and Islam are a force for lot more good than bad. I'm talking about the everyday people, not the ones who make the news. The kind who do good, make this world a little better place, without seeking fame or fortune for it. Everyday. Day in day out.

And I'm just saying you have no way to prove that nor do I have a way to disprove it

 

[squarecut1]

And I'm just saying you have no way to prove that nor do I have a way to disprove it

True

 

[ivwshane]

This article articulates my thoughts better than I could.

So far, so good. Where Maher goes wrong is in forgetting two other lessons of the liberal anti-totalitarian tradition. The first is to be precise about what you’re opposing. The second, to not get so carried away with your own virtue that you end up justifying terrible crimes.

http://m.theatlantic.com/internatio...gerous-critique-of-islam-ben-affleck/381266/#

 

[realibrad]

The polls are for a select few countries, how fucking hard is that for you to understand! There are a billion Muslims in this world, they all don't live in six countries!

But please! Continue with your ignorance! I need the laugh.

As for bill maher:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...fact-fact-checking-fallout-bill-mahers-musli/

I don't care about Bill Maher, which is why I have not been defending him. He is hosting a show, and wants to get viewers.

Furthermore, your statement about a few countries...
Those few countries represent about 41% of the Muslim world. You have no idea how polls work, because its not just random asking people what they think.

Lets do some math, with data, and not with feelings.

7 countries that represent 41% of the total groups population were polled.
Of those, 53% on average believe stoning for adultery is the correct punishment. So, if you look at 53% of 622,295,000 of the representative sample, you get an estimate of 329,816,350 people that likely believe in stoning.

Keep in mind that Turkey is considered to be a more moderate state. If you were to swap out Turkey for say Iraq, you would likely get an even worse picture.

You are talking out of your ass, because it feels racist to you.

Also, you counted 6 countries, when there are actually 7 listed.

 

[Retro Rob]

If your argument, is that Islam does not justify the horrible things that go on in Muslim countries, then you are ignorant.

Christians have a long way to go no doubt, but Islam has so much further.

This is really an apples to asteroids comparison. Islam is much more than a religion, so you'd have a political, social, and religious setup all in one...so "justifying" things in Muslim countries is more than just justifying "terrible things" (assuming you're speaking of what's in the Koran) -- you'd have to support the entire political and ideological set up which entail good things as well.

Christianity, OTOH, is only a religion -- the "terrible things" in the Bible (I know you're talking about the OT) were NEVER prescribed for Christians as the OT's Commands as a law-code ceased its binding on us after the death of Christ.

Seems like you're comparing two things that really shouldn't be compared in this fashion.

 

[realibrad]

This is really an apples to asteroids comparison. Islam is much more than a religion, so you'd have a political, social, and religious setup all in one...so "justifying" things in Muslim countries is more than just justifying "terrible things" (assuming you're speaking of what's in the Koran) -- you'd have to support the entire political and ideological set up which entail good things as well.

Christianity, OTOH, is only a religion -- the "terrible things" in the Bible (I know you're talking about the OT) were NEVER prescribed for Christians as the OT's Commands as a law-code ceased its binding on us after the death of Christ.

Seems like you're comparing two things that really shouldn't be compared in this fashion.

Christianity is not just a religion. You probably feel that way, because its so rapped up in every part of western day to day life.

Also, I was not just talking about the horrible things Christians have done in the bible. The inquisition was pretty damn awful. Slaughter of American natives was pretty awful. War with the Muslim world during the crusades was pretty awful.

You have a bias, as a Christian, which is very likely limiting your view.

Both the Bible and the Quran have some pretty harsh punishments in them, its just that most Christians ignore them today. I know they have been brought up to you Rob, as I have seen many anti Christian threads with you in them.

 

[Retro Rob]

Also, I was not just talking about the horrible things Christians have done in the bible.

Name a horrible thing a CHRISTIAN has done in the Bible. You probably know that there was no such thing as a "Christian" before Christ, so I can imagine you'd get this right unless you're going to ignorantly spout off a bunch of OT passages.

The inquisition was pretty damn awful. Slaughter of American natives was pretty awful. War with the Muslim world during the crusades was pretty awful

Well, you should have said this because you made no mention of any of this in your post. You said the Bible, now you're shifting the goal posts.

 

[realibrad]

Name a horrible thing a CHRISTIAN has done in the Bible. You probably know that there was no such thing as a "Christian" before Christ, so I can imagine you'd get this right unless you're going to ignorantly spout off a bunch of OT passages.

Well, you should have said this because you made no mention of any of this in your post. You said the Bible, now you're shifting the goal posts.

So Matthew 15:1-9, Jesus reaffirms that children should be put to death for the same rules in the old testament. That seems pretty harsh. So, Jesus advocating death to children to speak badly about their parents seems pretty bad to me.

Also, I went back and read every post in this thread I made, and I dont know what you are talking about in goal post shifting. Can you show me where you got the shift from, because I dont see it.

Last, do you dispute that currently people who call themselves Muslim are far more likely to believe in harmful beliefs that justify harmful actions? That is after all the point of this whole thread, and not Christians vs Muslims.

 

[Retro Rob]

So Matthew 15:1-9, Jesus reaffirms that children should be put to death for the same rules in the old testament. That seems pretty harsh. So, Jesus advocating death to children to speak badly about their parents seems pretty bad to me

I asked you to find me anything terrible that was DONE in the BIBLE by a CHRISTIAN.

Jesus restating a command about "cursing ones parents" (not merely bad-mouthing, but cursing meaning wishing death upon parents -- in the Bible, a "curse" was a death-sentence) is not something "done by a Christian".

You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

And when you read verse 1-2, Jesus was offering a rebuttal for the Pharisee's so-called adherence to tradition when they questioned his [Jesus] followers about not washing their hands and following tradition, and he asked why aren't they following the tradition themselves. In other words, he was calling them hypocrites.

Context, and a little education on the subject, works wonders.

Last, do you dispute that currently people who call themselves Muslim are far more likely to believe in harmful beliefs that justify harmful actions? That is after all the point of this whole thread, and not Christians vs Muslims.

Yes, if their beliefs dictate such actions and they still want to follow them. Look, I don't want to get into the habit of bashing any religion, but I think that some do prescribe bad actions for their followers.

However, I think Sam Harris is bigoted against Islam to some degree which is why I do understand where Affleck is coming from.

 

[inachu]

They only bring up the muslim issue because of 9-11
Muslims are not my problem. Lived around them in the 80's
lived around them in the 90's The vast push of AMerica to stop being even handed is what pushed muslims to do this. What if it was a muslim lobby since the 1930's in DC that made USA more friendly to muslims then it would be jews flying planes in the WTC.

That is just the plain facts. Imagine AIPAC was really the American,Islam,Action Comittie and not the A,ISraeli .......

Its been even proven that many senators wanted AIPAC to be marked as AGENTS OF A FOREIGN NATION. If we properly from the onset countered every zionist in the USA then there never would have been a muslim issue at all. Even the argument points for and against muslims is argued by jews to try to show themselves and not a israel lovers but that is the jew plan...... make them look more American than Israeli.

Already mossad agents trying to say this war has nothing to do with END TIME CULTS but that is the biggest lie as the end cults are the biggest supporters of ISrael in America.

 

[realibrad]

I asked you to find me anything terrible that was DONE in the BIBLE by a CHRISTIAN.

Jesus restating a command about "cursing ones parents" (not merely bad-mouthing, but cursing meaning wishing death upon parents -- in the Bible, a "curse" was a death-sentence) is not something "done by a Christian".

You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

And when you read verse 1-2, Jesus was offering a rebuttal for the Pharisee's so-called adherence to tradition when they questioned his [Jesus] followers about not washing their hands and following tradition, and he asked why aren't they following the tradition themselves. In other words, he was calling them hypocrites.

Context, and a little education on the subject, works wonders.
Yes, if their beliefs dictate such actions and they still want to follow them. Look, I don't want to get into the habit of bashing any religion, but I think that some do prescribe bad actions for their followers.

However, I think Sam Harris is bigoted against Islam to some degree which is why I do understand where Affleck is coming from.

You only asked me to find something in the Bible, after saying I have moved the goal post. So again, what post did I move?

Your Bible consists of an old and a new testament. The old rules were not thrown out. Are you saying bad acts are not mentioned in the new stories, and thus Christians are not as bad as Muslims? I'm confused here on that.

I don't want to get bogged down in another convo with you, because you always move the goal posts yourself. So lets stay on topic here.

Sam Harris from my view did not say anything racist. He said you should be able to demean bad ideas, and that many bad ideas from the group who call themselves Muslim. I don't see how that is racist. So explain that.

 

[realibrad]

They only bring up the muslim issue because of 9-11
Muslims are not my problem. Lived around them in the 80's
lived around them in the 90's The vast push of AMerica to stop being even handed is what pushed muslims to do this. What if it was a muslim lobby since the 1930's in DC that made USA more friendly to muslims then it would be jews flying planes in the WTC.

That is just the plain facts. Imagine AIPAC was really the American,Islam,Action Comittie and not the A,ISraeli .......

Its been even proven that many senators wanted AIPAC to be marked as AGENTS OF A FOREIGN NATION. If we properly from the onset countered every zionist in the USA then there never would have been a muslim issue at all. Even the argument points for and against muslims is argued by jews to try to show themselves and not a israel lovers but that is the jew plan...... make them look more American than Israeli.

Already mossad agents trying to say this war has nothing to do with END TIME CULTS but that is the biggest lie as the end cults are the biggest supporters of ISrael in America.

I would agree that American Muslims are pretty even with other American groups in terms of crimes. That was not the issue raised by Sam Harris though. American Muslims don't tend to carry ideas about stoning at the same levels that non American ones do.

 

[zinfamous]

The polls are for a select few countries, how fucking hard is that for you to understand! There are a billion Muslims in this world, they all don't live in six countries!

But please! Continue with your ignorance! I need the laugh.

As for bill maher:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...fact-fact-checking-fallout-bill-mahers-musli/

There are Muslim majority countries and are recognized as such. Compare them to Christian majority countries, and poll those countries wrg to their opinions of stoning women and death for leaving a fucking religion.

It's a very simple and non-controversial concept: A shitload of muslims in some very large countries hold some very fucking horrible ideas about justice and humanity. Even if they aren't blowing themselves up and even if they don't agree with those that do blow themselves up, A SHIT LOAD of them have a foundational belief that education for women is bad, stoning women is good, death penalty for petty social choices is good.

Plug your ears and cover your eyes all you want, but the facts are there whether you like it or not.

Now, here comes straw man #8 in 3, 2...

 

[squarecut1]

A SHIT LOAD of them have a foundational belief that education for women is bad, ..

In Pakistan, women outnumber men in medical schools around 3 to 1.

 

[ivwshane]

There are Muslim majority countries and are recognized as such. Compare them to Christian majority countries, and poll those countries wrg to their opinions of stoning women and death for leaving a fucking religion.

It's a very simple and non-controversial concept: A shitload of muslims in some very large countries hold some very fucking horrible ideas about justice and humanity. Even if they aren't blowing themselves up and even if they don't agree with those that do blow themselves up, A SHIT LOAD of them have a foundational belief that education for women is bad, stoning women is good, death penalty for petty social choices is good.

Plug your ears and cover your eyes all you want, but the facts are there whether you like it or not.

Now, here comes straw man #8 in 3, 2...

Oh oh, you might be getting my point be specific, the more specific the better.