affleck spars with bill maher & harris over islam

[realibrad]

I agree 100%. The scentence you were quoting was me acting like realibrad and making a statement I wouldn't have a problem with, with regards to over generalizing a whole group. You will note that earlier in this discussion I pointed out things we Americans do that others would consider barbaric, basically it was a "those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" kind of thing.

Btw, I think terrorism can only be defeated by propaganda, not by declaring war. You don't change peoples mind who are willing to die and kill for their beliefs by reinforcing their beliefs about you.

The point you seem to be missing, is that the Americans who do terrible things are on the whole a far fewer percentage. Further, there is not an inherent justification for those terrible acts, like there is in Islam.

You dont want to label a group, even when there is data. And screw the idea that because you are not perfect you cannot judge imperfection. I can explain why things are bad objectively. The reason a woman in a bikini is ok, is because it does not harm society. Just because religion says that the woman should be covered does not make the act immoral or bad in any way. The idea that religion gives morals is the problem. Muslims who stone a woman for cheating dont find it immoral. The reason for this is because that act is backed by religious text. We have people who say, "well people have different morals and ideas". That is all fine and good for little things, but not the big. We turn a blind eye to religious immoral act because they tend to be harmless. One person eats some bread and pretends is Jesus, no real harm done. Some grow their hair and cover it with a turban, again no harm. A father murders his daughter on the steps of the court house because she married a man for love, and not the one the family wanted her to marry, and...

Also, this idea that because western Muslims tend to not hold these bad ideas as often people dismiss the influence of the religion. I will say cognitive dissonance is very common among the religious in the western world, and maybe for good reason. But, that does not matter when the majority of the Muslims on this planet come from the Arab world, and not western countries. I would bet the bad ideas I have talked about are very uncommon in the western world, but the sad truth is that they are far too common in the Arab ones.

I have a problem with bad ideas, no matter where they come from, religion or otherwise. The fact of the matter is, many bad ideas come from Islam that dont seem to be shared among other groups. The other groups also have bad ideas too. But when you compare the bad ideas, there is a break in severity.

I have no doubt there are those who use Islam as the excuse to do horrible things, but I also believe there are those who do horrible things because of Islam. For the first group, they would simply find another excuse to do horrible things. For the second group, if Islam were more watered down, perhaps they would do less of that horrible thing. Its how Christianity and Christians have been, and same with the Jews. We simply dont see the large volume of violence we used to see in Christian history. I simply want Islam to become more like Christianity. Ultimately, I would like to see all religions die out, and people base their views on logic. I know thats not likely in the short term, so for now, I simply hope things improve for every group.

 

[realibrad]

No, *this* is what he's saying

"It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world."

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-reality-of-islam

Sounds like someone who is adamantly against everything relating to Islam to me.

All of which is true when you typically see the Arab Muslim world act. You simply dont think the Muslim world is like that because of Islam. To you, Islam just happens to be the dominate religion in a region where people do horrible things. Show any data that proves the majority of Muslims are close to the other religions. Show me where Christians believe in stoning at a rate of 30%. Show me a country that is dominated by a religious group that believes women should not be educated. When you get that data, Im more than happy to talk about it. I have not dodged anyone on any comment that have made thus far, and try to back up my statements with data.

 

[ivwshane]

Why hello brickwall!

 

[poohbear]

The point you seem to be missing, is that the Americans who do terrible things are on the whole a far fewer percentage. Further, there is not an inherent justification for those terrible acts, like there is in Islam.

You dont want to label a group, even when there is data. And screw the idea that because you are not perfect you cannot judge imperfection. I can explain why things are bad objectively. The reason a woman in a bikini is ok, is because it does not harm society. Just because religion says that the woman should be covered does not make the act immoral or bad in any way. The idea that religion gives morals is the problem. Muslims who stone a woman for cheating dont find it immoral. The reason for this is because that act is backed by religious text. We have people who say, "well people have different morals and ideas". That is all fine and good for little things, but not the big. We turn a blind eye to religious immoral act because they tend to be harmless. One person eats some bread and pretends is Jesus, no real harm done. Some grow their hair and cover it with a turban, again no harm. A father murders his daughter on the steps of the court house because she married a man for love, and not the one the family wanted her to marry, and...

Also, this idea that because western Muslims tend to not hold these bad ideas as often people dismiss the influence of the religion. I will say cognitive dissonance is very common among the religious in the western world, and maybe for good reason. But, that does not matter when the majority of the Muslims on this planet come from the Arab world, and not western countries. I would bet the bad ideas I have talked about are very uncommon in the western world, but the sad truth is that they are far too common in the Arab ones.

I have a problem with bad ideas, no matter where they come from, religion or otherwise. The fact of the matter is, many bad ideas come from Islam that dont seem to be shared among other groups. The other groups also have bad ideas too. But when you compare the bad ideas, there is a break in severity.

I have no doubt there are those who use Islam as the excuse to do horrible things, but I also believe there are those who do horrible things because of Islam. For the first group, they would simply find another excuse to do horrible things. For the second group, if Islam were more watered down, perhaps they would do less of that horrible thing. Its how Christianity and Christians have been, and same with the Jews. We simply dont see the large volume of violence we used to see in Christian history. I simply want Islam to become more like Christianity. Ultimately, I would like to see all religions die out, and people base their views on logic. I know thats not likely in the short term, so for now, I simply hope things improve for every group.

I have a simple question for u:

If the middle east were Christian, would all these problems disappear?

Specifically:

1)Would they accept a Jewish state right in the middle among them?

2)Would they fight over oil?

3)assuming some of them are protestants & others catholic, would they fight each other for control of these countries created by the British & French?

4) would the secular military dictators allow them to form their own political party & therefore have a political voice?

5) would violence be condoned & would they be quoting the Bible for the biblical verses that condone violence?

 

[Victorian Gray]

All of which is true when you typically see the Arab Muslim world act. You simply dont think the Muslim world is like that because of Islam. To you, Islam just happens to be the dominate religion in a region where people do horrible things. Show any data that proves the majority of Muslims are close to the other religions. Show me where Christians believe in stoning at a rate of 30%. Show me a country that is dominated by a religious group that believes women should not be educated. When you get that data, Im more than happy to talk about it. I have not dodged anyone on any comment that have made thus far, and try to back up my statements with data.

So which is it, Arab Muslims or all Muslims?

To repeat, Harris was not referring to *Arab* Muslims, he was referring to ISLAM period.

"It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world."

Harris (and Maher) are simple bigots. And, it appears that you are as well.

 

[ivwshane]

Another guy gets it:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...eed-an-honest-and-calm-dialogue-on-islam.html

 

[squarecut1]

[/B]Harris (and Maher) are simple bigots. And, it appears that you are as well.

It took you a long time to realize that

I've known it all along and hence not bothered to engage in any conversations with him. He clearly has an agenda and is delibrately peddling in blatant falsehoods. I see you and others have tried but by their very nature, bigots are not there to exchange views and/or see things from different viewpoints. They just want to blow their own trumpet and spread their hate

We have quite a few bigots on this forum, but we also have intellectually curious people. Whether or not you agree with them, it is worthwhile to engage with them.

 

[Jaskalas]

Another guy gets it:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...eed-an-honest-and-calm-dialogue-on-islam.html

Islam = Terrorism.

Ask Americans, that is what they believe. That Americans believe this is a serious !@#$ing problem for cultural relations. You don't have understanding when you think the other side wants to kill you.

September 11th caused this damage. There must be a consorted effort to repair that damage. Action must be taken to do this.

 

[poohbear]

Here is a very good op-ed piece in New York Times about the recent rant of Maher. It makes many good points

Thank u for that. So very true & very enlightening indeed. Reminds me of the form of christianity i saw in korea, a very VERY communal & heirarchal form of christianity that was so bizarre to me but it reflected Korean culture & Korean society. one's culture always finds its way into religion.

 

[cyclohexane]

Why do you write lies like this? What purpose does it serve?

Sorry buddy - those are the facts. People can criticize Christianity or Judism without being shot in the face, or stoned to death. Women in those religion have property rights, and can go to school.

People like you who pretend that Islam doesn't need to modernize perpetuates the problem.

 

[realibrad]

I have a simple question for u:

If the middle east were Christian, would all these problems disappear?

Specifically:

1)Would they accept a Jewish state right in the middle among them?

2)Would they fight over oil?

3)assuming some of them are protestants & others catholic, would they fight each other for control of these countries created by the British & French?

4) would the secular military dictators allow them to form their own political party & therefore have a political voice?

5) would violence be condoned & would they be quoting the Bible for the biblical verses that condone violence?

If the middle east were Christian, I believe many of the bad ideas would go too. Not all though, because Christians still have some pretty stupid ideas that they continue to push based on their religion.

1. Yes, I would accept a Jewish state. Dont know what that would mean to your point though.

2. They would fight, but not through war. You can see this historically and currently. A great example would be Venezuela and how most western countries deal with them. Horrible ideas come from that country too, but you dont see the same acts done as in the middle east.

3. Currently, no, they would not start a war.

4. Yes, very likely.

5. Violence in Christian nations is far more often looked down upon in most areas, except TV. So I would again assume yes.

 

[realibrad]

So which is it, Arab Muslims or all Muslims?

To repeat, Harris was not referring to *Arab* Muslims, he was referring to ISLAM period.

"It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world."

Harris (and Maher) are simple bigots. And, it appears that you are as well.

So I don't know your point. Most Muslims area Arab Muslims. Its far more likely that someone who is an Muslim that is non Arab will have less extreme views. Harris said there are those who have less extreme views, and should be promoted.

The main point is this...
Islam as a group has far more extreme views than just about any other religions group their size. There are justifications in the religion that help promote the bad ideas. As most major religions have cast aside the ideas in religious text that justifies these bad ideas, they have become more peaceful. I hope Islam will do the same, but the trend of the past 100 years has shown otherwise. I dont see how that is a bigoted thing to say, because its fact. If something I said was not fact then please point it out. In fact, you can go back through any of this thread and point out where I said something was not fact, and I can either explain, or admit I was wrong.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Sorry buddy - those are the facts. People can criticize Christianity or Judism without being shot in the face, or stoned to death. Women in those religion have property rights, and can go to school.

People like you who pretend that Islam doesn't need to modernize perpetuates the problem.

Ok, so you're ignorant and a bigot. Anything else about yourself you'd like to share?


Damn Muslims. How dare they get their blood on our machetes!

"Tens of thousands of Muslims are fleeing to neighboring countries by plane and truck as Christian militias stage brutal attacks, shattering the social fabric of this war-ravaged nation.

In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days, according to witnesses, aid agencies and peacekeepers. Tens of thousands of Muslims have fled their homes."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html


Or these nasssssty Muslims getting in the way of good Christian bullets:


"Reports estimate that between 67 and 300 are dead after Christian ethnic Taroks attacked Muslim cattle-herders in the town of Yelwa in central Nigeria's Plateau State. The Tarok ethnic group used machine guns mounted on jeeps, along with rifles and machetes, to attack the Muslim community. Possibly three mosques were damaged and at least 67 people have been buried, while hundreds more have fled or disappeared. Just last week, the Christian Tarok were attacked by the Muslim Hausa in the region.

In the most recent attack, the Associated Press reports that more that 100 were killed and 1,000 homes destroyed. "It will take time to account for the exact number of dead and missing. It's mass murder, because machine guns were used, not machetes," Justice Abdulkadir Orire, secretary general of the Jama'atu Nasril Islam, told Agence France-Presse."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/mayweb-only/5-3-32.0.html

 

[Victorian Gray]

So I don't know your point. Most Muslims area Arab Muslims. Its far more likely that someone who is an Muslim that is non Arab will have less extreme views. Harris said there are those who have less extreme views, and should be promoted.

The main point is this...
Islam as a group has far more extreme views than just about any other religions group their size. There are justifications in the religion that help promote the bad ideas. As most major religions have cast aside the ideas in religious text that justifies these bad ideas, they have become more peaceful. I hope Islam will do the same, but the trend of the past 100 years has shown otherwise. I dont see how that is a bigoted thing to say, because its fact. If something I said was not fact then please point it out. In fact, you can go back through any of this thread and point out where I said something was not fact, and I can either explain, or admit I was wrong.

See, how can you pretend to debate this when you don't have a clue about what you're debating?

"Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in South and Southeast Asia, with over 1 billion adherents.[13] The largest Muslim population in a country is in Indonesia, a nation home to 12.7% of the world's Muslims, followed by Pakistan (11.0%), India (10.9%), and Bangladesh (9.2%).[1][14] About 20% of Muslims live in Arab countries"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Again, Harris and Maher are simple bigots and you're making a damn fine argument that you are as well. Maker an effort to educate yourself or continue to present yourself as an ignorant bigot.

Have fun with that choice.

 

[realibrad]

Ok, so you're ignorant and a bigot. Anything else about yourself you'd like to share?


Damn Muslims. How dare they get their blood on our machetes!

"Tens of thousands of Muslims are fleeing to neighboring countries by plane and truck as Christian militias stage brutal attacks, shattering the social fabric of this war-ravaged nation.

In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days, according to witnesses, aid agencies and peacekeepers. Tens of thousands of Muslims have fled their homes."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html


Or these nasssssty Muslims getting in the way of good Christian bullets:


"Reports estimate that between 67 and 300 are dead after Christian ethnic Taroks attacked Muslim cattle-herders in the town of Yelwa in central Nigeria's Plateau State. The Tarok ethnic group used machine guns mounted on jeeps, along with rifles and machetes, to attack the Muslim community. Possibly three mosques were damaged and at least 67 people have been buried, while hundreds more have fled or disappeared. Just last week, the Christian Tarok were attacked by the Muslim Hausa in the region.

In the most recent attack, the Associated Press reports that more that 100 were killed and 1,000 homes destroyed. "It will take time to account for the exact number of dead and missing. It's mass murder, because machine guns were used, not machetes," Justice Abdulkadir Orire, secretary general of the Jama'atu Nasril Islam, told Agence France-Presse."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/mayweb-only/5-3-32.0.html

I think you believe that I see Christians as good. I see Christians as typically better. If you were to compare Christians vs Muslims during Inquisition I would say Christians were worse.

Also, my point is not that because Christians do bad things too, then all are just as bad as another. My point is that right now, Islam right now, not past and hopefully not future, is the most violent and extreme view holding of major religions. As an atheist, I dont believe either of the 2, or any religion for that matter, holds the true moral high ground, because I dont believe morals come from religion. Its not a debate about which religion is best. Its a debate about why, as a mater of facts, do Muslims hold extreme views about morality and punishment at rates far beyond the other major religions.

I dont believe all Muslims promote stoning for cheating, or cutting off limbs for stealing, or killing infidels. Those are bad ideas, and those bad ideas as of now typically come from Muslims and not Christians, Jews, Sikhs ect.

 

[realibrad]

See, how can you pretend to debate this when you don't have a clue about what you're debating?

"Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in South and Southeast Asia, with over 1 billion adherents.[13] The largest Muslim population in a country is in Indonesia, a nation home to 12.7% of the world's Muslims, followed by Pakistan (11.0%), India (10.9%), and Bangladesh (9.2%).[1][14] About 20% of Muslims live in Arab countries"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Again, Harris and Maher are simple bigots and you're making a damn fine argument that you are as well. Maker an effort to educate yourself or continue to present yourself as an ignorant bigot.

Have fun with that choice.

So Indonesia is not the worst, but its far from the best. Being from Asia does not help too much.

 

[Victorian Gray]

So Indonesia is not the worst, but its far from the best. Being from Asia does not help too much.

Still not willing to acknowledge that you don't understand what you're debating I see.

You: "Most Muslims area [sic] Arab Muslims."

Me: "See, how can you pretend to debate this when you don't have a clue about what you're debating?"

Me: ""Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in South and Southeast Asia"

You: "So Indonesia is not the worst, but its far from the best. Being from Asia does not help too much."

I get it ISLAM BAD! and that's the sum total of your argument, just like Harris.

 

[mizzou]

I don't really thnk it's an issue of Islam being violent...it's just backwards and ancient. We used to be very violent people in the middle ages and now we've sort of moved less violent in our justice system and ethical values.

The arab region is still in the middle ages to an extent.

 

[realibrad]

Still not willing to acknowledge that you don't understand what you're debating I see.

You: "Most Muslims area [sic] Arab Muslims."

Me: "See, how can you pretend to debate this when you don't have a clue about what you're debating?"

Me: ""Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in South and Southeast Asia"

You: "So Indonesia is not the worst, but its far from the best. Being from Asia does not help too much."

I get it ISLAM BAD! and that's the sum total of your argument, just like Harris.

Fair enough on most Muslims being in the Arab world. I was wrong about population demographics. Having said that, I would disagree that I "dont have a clue".

The point of my data, is to show a distance in views. With those 3, show me another major religion that even comes close to views like that. So why would people in Indonesia believe in stoning for adultery at a 42% rate? This seem to be amazing, because that seems like a non typical global view for a punishment. Not simply because its different, but because it is extreme.

 

[realibrad]

I don't really thnk it's an issue of Islam being violent...it's just backwards and ancient. We used to be very violent people in the middle ages and now we've sort of moved less violent in our justice system and ethical values.

The arab region is still in the middle ages to an extent.

All you have said is that Islam right now is more violent, but that ok because others used to be violent like that hundreds of years ago. That seems like a weak excuse. We should be pushing all groups to be less violent. And right now a whole like of violence comes from the Muslim world.

 

[Abwx]

All you have said is that Islam right now is more violent, but that ok because others used to be violent like that hundreds of years ago.

It took a civil war in Algeria to reach crime rates of Mexico or Colombia, actualy you know nothing about anything and are just rehersing urban legends that are running in US streets, meanwhile in less than 20 years Iran will be one of the main center of scientific production...

the country’s share of global science production has increased to 1.69 percent in 2014.
Vahid Ahmadi said on Sunday that the figure stood at 1.39 in 2013.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/17/375604/iran-science-production-up-in-2014/

 

[realibrad]

It took a civil war in Algeria to reach crime rates of Mexico or Colombia, actualy you know nothing about anything and are just rehersing urban legends that are running in US streets, meanwhile in less than 20 years Iran will be one of the main center of scientific production...



http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/17/375604/iran-science-production-up-in-2014/

The issue is not crime rate, because in many countries, stoning as a punishment is not a crime.

The issue is about extreme views on punishment, justice and civil society. I dont see a large part of Mexico or Colombia trying to Justify the violence you see there. Mexicans dont feel that thousands of murders are morally justified. The problem that I am talking about, is the fact that too many Muslims are justifying horrible acts. I dont see how you are getting the 2 confused. Central America knows it has a drug cartel problem. Muslims have a problem with believing stoning is the correct punishment.

 

[Abwx]

The issue is not crime rate, because in many countries, stoning as a punishment is not a crime.

The issue is about extreme views on punishment, justice and civil society. I dont see a large part of Mexico or Colombia trying to Justify the violence you see there. Mexicans dont feel that thousands of murders are morally justified. The problem that I am talking about, is the fact that too many Muslims are justifying horrible acts. I dont see how you are getting the 2 confused. Central America knows it has a drug cartel problem. Muslims have a problem with believing stoning is the correct punishment.

The muslims you are talking about are as well relying on their own urban legends, they heard that according to some religious law that stoning is just chastiment but just imagine that it s likely that the polled people are illiterate so i wonder what is actualy the value of theses polls.

As for stoning being savage, indeed but do you think that it s different from using electric chairs to execute people, frankly.?.

Yet it s justified and assumed as a normality by most people in the US while in Europe it is perceived as dark ages style executions if it wasnt for the use of electricity...

 

[PingviN]

Ben Affleck should never ever get into an argument again. He's downright bad at it.

 

[inachu]

Ah yes and the luck of saturn(the yellow star of david) and if men get their balls crushed they will not enter heaven.

jewish logic as as insane as muslim intellect.