affleck spars with bill maher & harris over islam

[realibrad]

@ ivwshane

Do you believe that people who identify themselves as Muslims are more or less likely to hold views that are detrimental to a civil society?

 

[ivwshane]

@ ivwshane

Do you believe that people who identify themselves as Muslims are more or less likely to hold views that are detrimental to a civil society?

You are asking me to generalize a billion+ people? Have you not been reading my posts?

 

[realibrad]

You are asking me to generalize a billion+ people? Have you not been reading my posts?

No, I am not. I am asking you to give an opinion based off of data. It would be fair if you were to say you don't have enough data to answer, but ill try and provide it. But it seems like you don't want to answer, because you think an answer is racist.

 

[ivwshane]

No, I am not. I am asking you to give an opinion based off of data. It would be fair if you were to say you don't have enough data to answer, but ill try and provide it. But it seems like you don't want to answer, because you think an answer is racist.

No, I just prefer not to generalize a shit ton of people that arent being represented.

Are there Muslims that hold values that aren't good for society? Sure there are, just like there are Christians and righties that hold values that aren't good for society.

Do I think religion isn't good for society? Yes, absolutely! Do I think all people who practice or subscribe to some form of religion are bad for society? No!

I'm all for calling a spade a spade, but let's not call things a spade just because they are loosely affiliated with a spade. It weakens the discussion and it only reinforces the "you are either with us or against us" mentality, that same mentality that you so desperately hate

 

[ivwshane]

I don't care about Bill Maher, which is why I have not been defending him. He is hosting a show, and wants to get viewers.

Furthermore, your statement about a few countries...
Those few countries represent about 41% of the Muslim world. You have no idea how polls work, because its not just random asking people what they think.

Lets do some math, with data, and not with feelings.

7 countries that represent 41% of the total groups population were polled.
Of those, 53% on average believe stoning for adultery is the correct punishment. So, if you look at 53% of 622,295,000 of the representative sample, you get an estimate of 329,816,350 people that likely believe in stoning.

Keep in mind that Turkey is considered to be a more moderate state. If you were to swap out Turkey for say Iraq, you would likely get an even worse picture.

You are talking out of your ass, because it feels racist to you.

Also, you counted 6 countries, when there are actually 7 listed.

There are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, you just counted 400 million of them, sure it's a lot buts it's not a majority, not even close.

 

[realibrad]

No, I just prefer not to generalize a shit ton of people that arent being represented.

Are there Muslims that hold values that aren't good for society? Sure there are, just like there are Christians and righties that hold values that aren't good for society.

Do I think religion isn't good for society? Yes, absolutely! Do I think all people who practice or subscribe to some form of religion are bad for society? No!

I'm all for calling a spade a spade, but let's not call things a spade just because they are loosely affiliated with a spade. It weakens the discussion and it only reinforces the "you are either with us or against us" mentality, that same mentality that you so desperately hate

This I can work with.

Part 1, totally agree there.

Part 2, again, agree.

Part 3, don't agree.

I'm all for calling a spade a spade, but let's not call things a spade just because they are loosely affiliated with a spade. It weakens the discussion and it only reinforces the "you are either with us or against us" mentality, that same mentality that you so desperately hate

So, we are back to the point I was trying to make before. You have a group (Muslims). That group is very large at over a billion followers. For sure there are disagreements. I think you are saying that I believe we need to do away with Islam, and to a degree I suppose this is true. I would rather live in a world without religion, just like you seem to believe. The reason for that, is I think religion is wrong, and only serves to hold back society at this point. I don't like wrong/bad/harmful ideas. No doubt other religions have bad ideas too.

The issue I have, is that Islam right now, tends to be associated whit those who call themselves Muslims. I think those bad ideas are legitimized in a big way, because it is backed by religious scripture. Many religions have cast aside their bad ideas backed by their religion and we are better off for it. Islam as it is now, has not been doing this. Like I said before, during the middle ages, Islamic countries were the pillar of good ideas. Without the Muslim world keeping records and moving society forward, we would not be where we are today. That form of Islam is not what we have today though.

 

[realibrad]

There are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, you just counted 400 million of them, sure it's a lot buts it's not a majority, not even close.

Even by those numbers, that is 25% of a group. If 1 in 4 Mexicans kicked cats, we would say Mexicans had a problem with kicking cats. That does not mean all Mexicans kick cats. It does show that there are far too many people from a group that kick cats. Identifying a problem such as cat kicking, should also involve seeing who it is that typically kicks cats. If I wanted to help people who had cancer, I would first need to identify who has cancer, but I would also want to identify their background to see why they got it.

 

[ivwshane]

This I can work with.

Part 1, totally agree there.

Part 2, again, agree.

Part 3, don't agree.



So, we are back to the point I was trying to make before. You have a group (Muslims). That group is very large at over a billion followers. For sure there are disagreements. I think you are saying that I believe we need to do away with Islam, and to a degree I suppose this is true. I would rather live in a world without religion, just like you seem to believe. The reason for that, is I think religion is wrong, and only serves to hold back society at this point. I don't like wrong/bad/harmful ideas. No doubt other religions have bad ideas too.

The issue I have, is that Islam right now, tends to be associated whit those who call themselves Muslims. I think those bad ideas are legitimized in a big way, because it is backed by religious scripture. Many religions have cast aside their bad ideas backed by their religion and we are better off for it. Islam as it is now, has not been doing this. Like I said before, during the middle ages, Islamic countries were the pillar of good ideas. Without the Muslim world keeping records and moving society forward, we would not be where we are today. That form of Islam is not what we have today though.

Yes because people like you keep associating a billion plus people with a minority group! Stop doing the associating thing and talk specifically about the group of people you have an issue with.

It's really not that hard.

 

[realibrad]

Yes because people like you keep associating a billion plus people with a minority group! Stop doing the associating thing and talk specifically about the group of people you have an issue with.

It's really not that hard.

So you are saying that I associate Muslims with stoning women, because self identified Muslims are the largest believer of stoning women? Then yes, that is true.

What % of a group must believe in stoning women for you to label that group as having a problem with stoning women belief?

 

[ivwshane]

Even by those numbers, that is 25% of a group. If 1 in 4 Mexicans kicked cats, we would say Mexicans had a problem with kicking cats. That does not mean all Mexicans kick cats. It does show that there are far too many people from a group that kick cats. Identifying a problem such as cat kicking, should also involve seeing who it is that typically kicks cats. If I wanted to help people who had cancer, I would first need to identify who has cancer, but I would also want to identify their background to see why they got it.

You don't see the contradiction in your statement do you?

First you say it's ok to generalize about a problem but then you say in order to fix that problem you need specifics. How about when dealing with a problem you be specific in the first place?

Did either of you read the articles I posted (especially the second link)?

 

[realibrad]

You don't see the contradiction in your statement do you?

First you say it's ok to generalize about a problem but then you say in order to fix that problem you need specifics. How about when dealing with a problem you be specific in the first place?

Did either of you read the articles I posted (especially the second link)?

I tried to, but it was mainly about Marr's statements, which were wrong. I couldnt find anything about what Harris said, so I stopped.

I don't think women should be stoned for cheating. When I look around, the only group I see that has a large number of people who believe in that idea, are Muslims.

I dont think homosexuality is immoral. When I look around, I see a lot of groups who believe it is, and Muslims are apart of that.


The question then again becomes. At what rate of belief do Muslims need to believe in order for the claim that Muslims have a problem with that belief? When 25+% of a group has the idea, I say its a problem. When that group is also 1.6 billion people, it becomes a big problem, because so many believe it. I think the disconnect is that you think I want to do something to all Muslims. What I think, is that people should not be afraid to demean bad ideas, even when those are tied to religion.

 

[ivwshane]

I tried to, but it was mainly about Marr's statements, which were wrong. I couldnt find anything about what Harris said, so I stopped.

I don't think women should be stoned for cheating. When I look around, the only group I see that has a large number of people who believe in that idea, are Muslims.

I dont think homosexuality is immoral. When I look around, I see a lot of groups who believe it is, and Muslims are apart of that.


The question then again becomes. At what rate of belief do Muslims need to believe in order for the claim that Muslims have a problem with that belief? When 25+% of a group has the idea, I say its a problem. When that group is also 1.6 billion people, it becomes a big problem, because so many believe it. I think the disconnect is that you think I want to do something to all Muslims. What I think, is that people should not be afraid to demean bad ideas, even when those are tied to religion.

How about you just speak out about muslims who support things you are against? Is that too much to ask?

 

[realibrad]

How about you just speak out about muslims who support things you are against? Is that too much to ask?

I think you are trying to say that Islam is not causing anyone to believe in bad ideas, it just happens that way. Is that fair?

 

[ivwshane]

I think you are trying to say that Islam is not causing anyone to believe in bad ideas, it just happens that way. Is that fair?

People, when backed into a corner will believe whatever they want however correlation doesn't equal causation.

However it certainly could be a factor. The only factor? Clearly not, otherwise we'd see similar views elsewhere in the world.

 

[realibrad]

People, when backed into a corner will believe whatever they want however correlation doesn't equal causation.

However it certainly could be a factor. The only factor? Clearly not, otherwise we'd see similar views elsewhere in the world.

You did not answer my question, but I think I know what you are trying to convey now.

So at what point do you considered a statistical number a significance? I do believe religion helps create, promote, spread bad ideas. From your previous comment, it seems like you might also believe that as well. So, Islam being a religion, that has in its books very horrible rules, can be a religion that creates/promotes/spreads bad ideas. And, when you look at the group that identifies its self as Muslim, they do indeed have bad ideas in it. Further, that group tends to have rates of bad ideas higher than many many other groups. So why is that bad?

 

[ivwshane]

You did not answer my question, but I think I know what you are trying to convey now.

So at what point do you considered a statistical number a significance? I do believe religion helps create, promote, spread bad ideas. From your previous comment, it seems like you might also believe that as well. So, Islam being a religion, that has in its books very horrible rules, can be a religion that creates/promotes/spreads bad ideas. And, when you look at the group that identifies its self as Muslim, they do indeed have bad ideas in it. Further, that group tends to have rates of bad ideas higher than many many other groups. So why is that bad?

All religion has pretty horrible things in it by today's standards, all religion can also be interpreted in many different ways, even gross misguided ways. You don't label everyone that follows a religion as being the same if they aren't interpreting their holy book the same way do you? Well, I know you do but you shouldn't, it doesn't help your cause, which I assume is to stop violence.

Btw I did answer your question, you just didn't like the answer. You want things in black or white, I want the truth which comes in many shades.

 

[realibrad]

All religion has pretty horrible things in it by today's standards, all religion can also be interpreted in many different ways, even gross misguided ways. You don't label everyone that follows a religion as being the same if they aren't interpreting their holy book the same way do you? Well, I know you do but you shouldn't, it doesn't help your cause, which I assume is to stop violence.

Btw I did answer your question, you just didn't like the answer. You want things in black or white, I want the truth which comes in many shades.

There seems to be a rather large statistical significance when compared to other religions though. Yes, religion has many times though out history been used to some horrible things. For the most part, most of the major religions have started watering down themselves. Islam as of now, has not been doing that. Right now, among the major religions, bad ideas are clustering around Islam at a much much higher rate. I think Islam is just as wrong about god as any other religion, and could not care less about that point. I dont think the countries they come from are anything special. What I have the problem with, are the ideas, and what comes from those ideas. If Islam were to become watered down like the others the great.

The problem is that most of the major religions stopped following the violent parts mostly, but Islam.

 

[zinfamous]

There are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, you just counted 400 million of them, sure it's a lot buts it's not a majority, not even close.

Do 41% of world Christians, world Jews, world Buddhists, etc hold such similarly uncivil beliefs?

I think you are starting to understand the point.

 

[ivwshane]

There seems to be a rather large statistical significance when compared to other religions though. Yes, religion has many times though out history been used to some horrible things. For the most part, most of the major religions have started watering down themselves. Islam as of now, has not been doing that. Right now, among the major religions, bad ideas are clustering around Islam at a much much higher rate. I think Islam is just as wrong about god as any other religion, and could not care less about that point. I dont think the countries they come from are anything special. What I have the problem with, are the ideas, and what comes from those ideas. If Islam were to become watered down like the others the great.

The problem is that most of the major religions stopped following the violent parts mostly, but Islam.

Lol! You don't think countries that are considered the shit hole of civilization that were once at the forefront of the civilized world to be anything special or have any importance as to why, now, after decades of war, some of those wars directly caused by us, are a shot hole? It's all religions fault?

Yes, ignorance is a problem...

 

[xaeniac]

a bunch of talking heads, but maher finally takes a valid stance

 

[realibrad]

Lol! You don't think countries that are considered the shit hole of civilization that were once at the forefront of the civilized world to be anything special or have any importance as to why, now, after decades of war, some of those wars directly caused by us, are a shot hole? It's all religions fault?

Yes, ignorance is a problem...

Chicken or egg. Religion is an ever changing thing. Islam of 200 years ago, is not Islam of today. The question is, is Islam helping cause the "shit hole" lifestyle you see, or is Islam of today a side effect?

The way I see your view is the following.

Shitty people caused shitty beliefs and society.

If its not that, then where is the shittyness coming from?

 

[ivwshane]

Do 41% of world Christians, world Jews, world Buddhists, etc hold such similarly uncivil beliefs?

I think you are starting to understand the point.

Let me see if I understand your logic here by summerizing your views:

You liked George bush jr since he had an approval rating of 27%.

You approve of spying on Americans since around 20% of Americans do.

You believe in creationism and you think it should be taught in school.

And you also believe 9/11 was caused by Iraq.

Isn't stereotyping a majority of people based on a minority of people fun!

 

[realibrad]

Let me see if I understand your logic here by summerizing your views:

You liked George bush jr since he had an approval rating of 27%.

You approve of spying on Americans since around 20% of Americans do.

You believe in creationism and you think it should be taught in school.

And you also believe 9/11 was caused by Iraq.

Isn't stereotyping a majority of people based on a minority of people fun!

We went over this already. Who on that program was saying All Muslims should be punished, or any law passed against all Muslims? Thats not what happened at all.

Something is causing this group to believe some horrible things, more than any other group of that size. I think its there religion and all that is mixed up in it, which is driving these beliefs. So what is it that is causing Muslims to have views that are far more extreme than any other major religion?

 

[ivwshane]

We went over this already. Who on that program was saying All Muslims should be punished, or any law passed against all Muslims? Thats not what happened at all.

Something is causing this group to believe some horrible things, more than any other group of that size. I think its there religion and all that is mixed up in it, which is driving these beliefs. So what is it that is causing Muslims to have views that are far more extreme than any other major religion?

The first part of problem solving is correctly identifying the problem. The problem isn't all religion is bad, it's not that Muslim religion is bad, the problem is not all Muslims are bad, the problem is a minority (and yes they are a minority) group of Muslims have views that you don't agree with (personally I only have issues with Muslim extremists, aka terrorists).

Now that we have correctly identified the problem we can have a much better discussion about the solution.

And that is why, when discussing issues it's important to be specific, not doing so only clouds the discussion.

 

[ivwshane]

a bunch of talking heads, but maher finally takes a valid stance

You mean he takes a stance you agree with.