Darkstar757
Diamond Member
- Feb 1, 2003
- 3,190
- 6
- 81
We are products of a world that is governed under the rule of survival of the fittest. As the saying goes, "you think that's not fair? LIFE isn't fair. Get used to it." Yes, some people may have advantages. But like i said earlier, are mugsy bogues and Spudd webb asking for 3 points for a layup because theyre over a foot shorter than the average NBA player? Of course not. They know theyre at a disadvantage, and accept it with the understanding that they have to work 4 times as long and 4 times as hard to get where they are. America would be so much better if the people took this attitude over an attitude of "i got screwed over so i'm going to bitch about it until someone gives me a handout or preferential treatment."
And as far as changing policies that are "racist" or give unfair advantage to the majority, the only thing we have to remember is that change comes from the top. If i feel that the Marine Corps has an unfair policy and i want to invoke change, i can't do it as a Private, no matter how intelligent or eloquent of a speaker i may be. Oh yes, it's been tried, and the USMC even has "programs" put in place so that the men in the trenches can give their input. But it's really all a smokescreen to appease the masses. The colonels and generals are the ones who have the real influence, no matter how hard they try to tell you differently.
exactly.
It would be an entirely different world if a person could not inherit the fortunes (or misfortunes) of ones family upon birth. To let all people begin the "race" at the same starting point. No one inheritedly better (or worse off) than the next person. Attend the same schools, have all the same oppurtunitys.
It would be interesting to see how things turn out for alot of people. Then, and only then could I believe that a group of people are simply "too lazy" to do something better for themselves.
It would be an entirely different world if a person could not inherit the fortunes (or misfortunes) of ones family upon birth. To let all people begin the "race" at the same starting point. No one inheritedly better (or worse off) than the next person. Attend the same schools, have all the same oppurtunitys.
It would be interesting to see how things turn out for alot of people. Then, and only then could I believe that a group of people are simply "too lazy" to do something better for themselves.
Hey DarkStar,
Just as an FYI, I have two close black friends and neither of them feel the way you do. I personally don't paint broad generalizations about races.
HAHAHAHAHA. While i don't agree with you, darkstar, i feel for you because you're arguing a very unpopular viewpoint and you don't exactly have a lot of firepower in your corner. Personally, though, i think LeeTJ is JUST as "racist," if not moreso, than Darkstar. The two are polar opposites. Both have valid points, but both argue a point based on prejudices and socialized ideals while under the guise of "rational thought."
An interesting observation...
I took a sociology class a few semesters ago and had a black professor. He was a retired Sergeant Major, the highest enlisted rank you can attain in the Marine Corps. By the second class i realized that he had the exact same attitude that darkstar has, despite his many accomplishments. But he taught me more about sociology through the way he acted and the comments he made than his lectures ever could have. It would have been a brilliant ploy if he had stood up the last day of class and said:
"You all probably have some opinions about me and are afraid to voice them. You probably think of me as the typical black man, always claiming the attitude that the 'Man' is oppressing us, and that's why we can't succeed. While i won't reveal if my comments were my own opinions or purely fabricated for this final and ultimate 'lesson', the point is that you've now REALLY learned what sociology and socialization is all about. You've probably discussed my comments as being 'racist' and have probably talked about how my ideals are socialized into me from my family, peers, and society. And THAT is exactly what i wanted you to get out of this class. I could have lectured for hours and hours, but no one would have really learned the lesson unless they saw it firsthand. As Ralph Waldo Emerson once said, 'What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.' Thank you for coming."
Unfortunately, i doubt he had that in mind when he began the class. The lesson was still learned, however, and the point being that socialization plays just as large a part in the successes of a certain group of people as it does in the failures of another. If you've been socialized from birth to think that the man held you down and that you'll never go anywhere because the system will prevent you from being successful, then you're very likely to follow that destiny. However, if you've been socialized to think that you have to be dedicated and work harder and longer than anyone else to get ahead and be successful, you'll likely do that, as well. It's unfortunate that the vast majority of people socialized into rationalizing their failures are not willing to veer off the beaten path and arrive at a better way of achieving success.
I took a sociology class a few semesters ago and had a black professor. He was a retired Sergeant Major, the highest enlisted rank you can attain in the Marine Corps. By the second class i realized that he had the exact same attitude that darkstar has, despite his many accomplishments. But he taught me more about sociology through the way he acted and the comments he made than his lectures ever could have. It would have been a brilliant ploy if he had stood up the last day of class and said:
"You all probably have some opinions about me and are afraid to voice them. You probably think of me as the typical black man, always claiming the attitude that the 'Man' is oppressing us, and that's why we can't succeed. While i won't reveal if my comments were my own opinions or purely fabricated for this final and ultimate 'lesson', the point is that you've now REALLY learned what sociology and socialization is all about. You've probably discussed my comments as being 'racist' and have probably talked about how my ideals are socialized into me from my family, peers, and society. And THAT is exactly what i wanted you to get out of this class. I could have lectured for hours and hours, but no one would have really learned the lesson unless they saw it firsthand. As Ralph Waldo Emerson once said, 'What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.' Thank you for coming."
Unfortunately, i doubt he had that in mind when he began the class. The lesson was still learned, however, and the point being that socialization plays just as large a part in the successes of a certain group of people as it does in the failures of another. If you've been socialized from birth to think that the man held you down and that you'll never go anywhere because the system will prevent you from being successful, then you're very likely to follow that destiny. However, if you've been socialized to think that you have to be dedicated and work harder and longer than anyone else to get ahead and be successful, you'll likely do that, as well. It's unfortunate that the vast majority of people socialized into rationalizing their failures are not willing to veer off the beaten path and arrive at a better way of achieving success.
I think we should have AA for professional sports. I mean, according to Darkstar and others like him, if it's good enough for the business world and society in general, then it should be good enough for the sports world too, right?
All hail the color of your skin.
Where's Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when I need them?
All hail the color of your skin.
Where's Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when I need them?
and JUST what do you know about me Fuji?? You call me a racist, blah. that means nothing to me, it's just another label, another stereotype that you are attempting to attach to me without having NEAR enough information to make the judgement.
if i were truly racist my points of view would be very very different indeed. but you don't actually mean to call me a racist, you mean to call me RACIST against BLACK people which is ludicrous. you OBVIOUSLY aren't calling me racist against Indians, American Indians, Jews or any other ethnic group, so let's say it like it is.
you're trying to claim that I stereotype and am racist against Black people. Well show me, quote me, show something that i've posted that SPECIFICALLY shows i'm stereotyping black people?
it pisses me off that people think that being called RACIST is such a bad thing that it changes the way people talk. that's ludicrous.
LeeTJ,
Please note that i referred to you as "racist", that is, in quotes. I wasn't trying to paint a label on you that you were a klan member who hated all non-WASPs. I was merely implying that you APPEAR to generalize about the black race like darkstar generalizes about other races. You APPEAR to be "racist" in the way you come off. Hence the quotes. I'm not saying you don't have valid points--because you do--i'm just saying that you SOUND like you look at blacks with disdain. That you view them as generally beneath you; a group that is lazy or unproductive in society. I'm sure Darkstar knows exactly what i'm talking about. And I'm sure he thinks that a lot of races view blacks as no-good scum who bring nothing but violence and crime into this world. It wouldn't be too big of a shot in the dark to assume this with people telling him things like:
"the biggest lie with desegregation was it WAS the worst thing to do. who better to teach black people than other black people. Would there have been a disparity in funds, perhaps initially, but IF the black people had shown initiative an achieve a certain level of success, that disparity would have been reduced."
Don't you think that has some generally negative overtones and implications about the black race? That's what i was referring to. Which is not to say that others don't do the same. I'll be the first to say that I am officially "racist" in terms of the word's definition. I pre-judge people day in and day out because that's the way human nature is. If I meet a harvard educated grad and then meet his brother who works at mcdonalds, am i going to naturally assume the harvard grad has higher intellectual ability? Of course. It would be foolish to think that I could be completely and totally objective to everything that affects me in the world.
The difference is that I try to keep an open mind and minimize the extent to which my inherent prejudices affect my thoughts and ideals. That's why even though I agree with most things you say, i also try to understand the socialization that has taken part in the black community which many times drives a particular group to success or failure. Maybe it's not intentional, but your prejudices and/or generalizations and stereotypes are being put to destructive purposes--at least on this forum. On the other hand, they do drive home a point. Just not one that is doing anyone any good. That's the point i was trying to get across.
btw, can you elaborate on your view that racial integration is a bad idea? Or if i'm reading you wrong, could you clarify for me?
Racial integration didn't work.
I am currently a father of 3 children. 6, 3 and 2 yrs off age. one of our biggest concerns is choosing school districts. the big question that keeps coming up for me is, "would it be better to have my children be BIG fish in a small pond or Small fish in a large pond". to explain that, is it better for children to always be surrounded by a high level of competition or is it better to have them excel in a not quite as good school district and build their confidence.
let's be honest it isn't racist for me to say that blacks were at a disadvantage in educational surroundings at the time that segregation / desegregation was an issue. to force blacks and whites to try and learn together was a mistake, because if forced a minority of disadvantaged disliked people to join schools with a majority of better prepared white students. again the point is NOT to say that blacks had an inherent inability to be equal, but to describe a realistic situation.
it would have been better in my opinion to have blacks educated by blacks in order to build a society and a culture that took pride in itself than to force them to be educated along with a majority school population that disliked them.
my other point has been from the beginning, there is too much of an emphasis that more money means better education. it doesn't. it only does when people are unable or unwilling to truly teach the basics. the teaching of KNOWLEDGE shouldn't be the key, the teaching of FINDING knowledge should be the key.
it's about approach to education, BUT if any student gets the basics of Math and English (reading and writing) and learn HOW to use those tools, than that student can succeed at most universities. they might not necessarily get into the BEST of schools, but then again how many people do? the absolute percentage of all students (black, white, yellow and red) for any specific ethnic group that get INTO harvard or yale is VERY VERY small.
MOST students can get into, state colleges or community colleges by JUST mastering the basics. It doesn't require THAT much money to teach the basics. the emphasis on money is an issue.
Darkstar757
Diamond Member
- Feb 1, 2003
- 3,190
- 6
- 81
Well in closing I would just like to state that I thank everyone who took the time to reply to this thread. Even though I dont agree with most of you I feel that debating is better than fighting etc. I only hope that for all of you who disagree with how I feel. Understand that there is a very strog reason why I have no support on this forum. All I can say is ask yourself why is Darkstar the only one who feels this way. Jusr know its because so few that are the same race as I am have the knowledge to even seek out anandtech.
Peace
Darkstar
Peace
Darkstar
Saying that 'blacks built America' is one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. What about Thomas Jefferson? George Washington? Benjamin Franklin? Oh, right, their slaves must have given them all the help they needed to establish this country.
Black people who believe their ethnic groups' hardships are the worst the world has ever seen are fooling themselves. They want affirmative action to continue because it is a handout. Pure and simple, no debating it, affirmative action is in fact a handout. They want equality but at the same time want to be given an advantage.
A list of groups who have had it worse than blacks:
1. Jews
2. Native Americans (hey, at least you have a country you could go back to)
3. Chinese and Koreans (WWII, not sure which country had it worse.. I'd guess China)
The above races were kicked out, murdered, and/or tortured because their culture and ethnicity was different. The Jews numerous times, the Native Americans during the colonization of America, and the Chinese and Koreans in WWII when millions were murdered by the Japanese.
Discrimination exists in America, and it is against the majority. We as a society have become so concious of being poltically correct that we constantly give minorities the upper hand (Affirmative Action, race-specific aid programs) and let them get away with things that the majority never would (I can be called cracker but I couldn't respond by calling you a n*gger; I could never create a financial aid program for lower-class whites while it is common for such a group to exist for hispanics and blacks).
I have no problem with any minority group. My problem is with a certain minority group's outspoken leaders, and those that follow them, and how they consistently proclaim that their struggles are so much worse than everyone elses.
Black people who believe their ethnic groups' hardships are the worst the world has ever seen are fooling themselves. They want affirmative action to continue because it is a handout. Pure and simple, no debating it, affirmative action is in fact a handout. They want equality but at the same time want to be given an advantage.
A list of groups who have had it worse than blacks:
1. Jews
2. Native Americans (hey, at least you have a country you could go back to)
3. Chinese and Koreans (WWII, not sure which country had it worse.. I'd guess China)
The above races were kicked out, murdered, and/or tortured because their culture and ethnicity was different. The Jews numerous times, the Native Americans during the colonization of America, and the Chinese and Koreans in WWII when millions were murdered by the Japanese.
Discrimination exists in America, and it is against the majority. We as a society have become so concious of being poltically correct that we constantly give minorities the upper hand (Affirmative Action, race-specific aid programs) and let them get away with things that the majority never would (I can be called cracker but I couldn't respond by calling you a n*gger; I could never create a financial aid program for lower-class whites while it is common for such a group to exist for hispanics and blacks).
I have no problem with any minority group. My problem is with a certain minority group's outspoken leaders, and those that follow them, and how they consistently proclaim that their struggles are so much worse than everyone elses.
I don't care the slightest bit about what happened to your great grandfather. You ever work in a cotton field? No? SHUT UP. You were NEVER oppressed, so you need to realize that you're the one causing trouble by claiming to be inferior and in need of help.
By the way, I was under the impression that Chinese and other races built the railroads (much moreso than blacks), which are a bit more important than cotton fields.
You're wasting your time on AT with a computer (obviously not TOO disadvantaged), when you could be doing something useful for society (or preventing more-qualified white kids from getting into good schools and at least getting yourself a little edumacation).
Giving a lazy, self-serving jerk like you money does not make up for those wrongs.
After estate taxes, money from that long ago would be worthless. Estate taxes are a whole other issue. Besides, how do you know they wouldn't have disowned you for being such a backwards person who wants to just live on easy street because of stuff that happened over a century ago?
Yea, seriously!
Hey darkstar - maybe we should preemptively pay off muslims in America, because based on current trends, I bet it will be pretty bad for them soon...
God doesn't exist. The jews helped themselves, assuming the book of exodus is even true.
I want a fair playing field too. You come out at the top 5% of your class, then come back and talk to me about a fair playing field. You come out in the bottom 50% of a disadvantage inner-city school, and you're a moron, even though you're a disadvantaged one. (No offense intended to those in the bottom 50% of their classes)
No, we want an AA advocate who can form an argument based on happenings that are relevant TODAY instead of going on and on about something that retarded white people did long before your parents (for slavery, grandparents, maybe great grandparents) lived, and if this advocate is going to reference the past, he/she should at least KNOW something about it.
You're the racist. I don't particularly care WHAT race a person is when I'm interacting with them, so long as they share a common interest.
Schooling through 12th grade is free. Work hard at getting an education, speak proper english, and maybe you won't have the problems you do. If money is a problem (so you go for the excuse of work before school -> sacrificed grades), I have lots of white friends who worked long hours during high school and still managed to get good grades.
Yeah, but I think that what certain minorities are asking now is absurd. Anyone who says the civil rights movement was a bad thing should be... I dunno, something bad should happen to them. Trent Lott is a jacka55.
You're ignorant. VERY VERY ignorant.
"I hate black people. Reparations? You want reparations? Have you ever been to Africa? Bitch, you got toilets." To loosely quote one of my best black friends.
Wow, all this AA flamefesting and I missed the whole thing. chances are, no one will read this, but think about this:
1. AA was never meant as a permenant program. It started as a means to level the playing field for minorities.
2. AA discriminates against race. People are picked based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character.
3. AA does not differentiate between poor and rich, it only differentiates against color. Therefore, even if a black student is from a wealthy family, he still has a better chance of getting into a top school or better career than a white person in poverty with higher SAT scores and better grades.
4. CA did away with AA (Prop 209) and suprisingly, the numbers in the Education and Workforce did not change. Duh.
Remember that it was Dr. M.L. King Jr. who said: "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
So as long as AA exists, Martin Luther King's dreams will never be realized.
1. AA was never meant as a permenant program. It started as a means to level the playing field for minorities.
2. AA discriminates against race. People are picked based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character.
3. AA does not differentiate between poor and rich, it only differentiates against color. Therefore, even if a black student is from a wealthy family, he still has a better chance of getting into a top school or better career than a white person in poverty with higher SAT scores and better grades.
4. CA did away with AA (Prop 209) and suprisingly, the numbers in the Education and Workforce did not change. Duh.
Remember that it was Dr. M.L. King Jr. who said: "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
So as long as AA exists, Martin Luther King's dreams will never be realized.
QUOTE from DARKSTAR:
"Im not crying im doing quite well but it because of AA that helped me. I wouldnt have the job I have now if it wasnt for AA."
I sure hope he's not a doctor. I'd hate to be the one under his knife. Hope he's not a lawyer either, I'd hate to have him defend me in court. How about a black Judge? Would he be able to judge fairly or wisely? It sucks when you're looking for the best care, but get a black person, cause now you have to wonder, is he really the most qualified person for this job or did he just get the job because he's black?
I'm not against black people, but with AA on the loose, I'm just afraid to put my life in their hands. Think about it.
god this thread is going to die without opposition here....someone find an AA advocate! (preferably an intelligent one..)
it's kind of ironic because when the civil rights movement first started, that was one of the big debates, i'm speaking of the segregation/desegregation thing. there were some black leaders who disagreed with the approach we ended up taking.
i've said it in many threads and i'll say it again here, no one thinks less of black people than their own leaders. most of us assume that black people with effort can accomplish what people from all other ethnic groups have accomplished WITHOUT AA. it's only some black people and most black leaders who think that it ISN'T possible, so who REALLY is the racist?
the person (me for example) who believes that black people can stand on their own two feet? or the black leaders who insist that black people need government intervention to give them a helping hand.
Darkstar757
Diamond Member
- Feb 1, 2003
- 3,190
- 6
- 81
Im response to all of the nasty racist comments made directly at me. I thank you all because you have proven to me why we need AA. Some on you on this thread have disagreed with my comments by directly bashing me. However some of my comments may have rubbed you the wrong way and I cant help that. You are expressing hate towards me because of my feelings. I have not once in the thread said anything other than the lack of equality in the USA for blacks. However the hate that has been expressed towards me shows me why AA is so important. I just hope that most of you hear in this thread will understand my feelings. As far as those of you who say I have never been opressed. I have been called a N$#@ more times than you can imagine I have also be assalted by rasict cops. Also none of you who are not black have no idea what its like being black because you cant hide it. It just saddens me to see how great the digital divide is because I have had no fellow black minorties respond to this thread.
This is my last posting on this issue because I am sorry that my feelings have made so many of you hate me. However even though many of you dont like my feelings. Remember AA won the vote and it won for a good reason.
Peace
This is my last posting on this issue because I am sorry that my feelings have made so many of you hate me. However even though many of you dont like my feelings. Remember AA won the vote and it won for a good reason.
Peace
it's this kind of self serving self pitying posts that will get you absolutely NO support.
most of the comments directed at you are NOT racial, as they are not directed at your race, they are directed at YOU. your problem is you are not man enough to accept that some people just disagree with you, even vehemently so, that does NOT make them racist.
be a man for pete sake, quit hiding behind your race.
again, respond to the SUBSTANCE of these posts.
but that would take being honest with yourself, and i'm beginning to question whethor not you can honestly do that.
oh btw, I'm asian and it is NO easier to hide that fact than it is to hide that your black. here's irony for you, i walk thru a white neighborhood and people treat me as if i'm an average person, even children. i walk thru a black neighborhood and people snigger, laugh, make rude comments, make "chinese" type sounds. oh but that isn't prejudice because it's ok for black people to do those things to other ethnic groups.
so get off your low horse and start trying to be a man.
eh...one of the problems i see is that the black community is so preoccupied by the notion that the "world is out to get them" (the song "me against the world" by 2Pac comes to mind), that anytime someone points out ANYTHING remotely negative about them, they close their minds off and instantly think "my people were right! the world IS out to get me. Everyone's racist! They hate me because i'm black!" Look at how darkstar instinctively responds to others. Anytime someone says something negative about blacks (true or not), he throws the shields up and reconfirms in his mind that we're all a bunch of Klan members out to get him.
But why is this so common? It's socialization, of course. And generally speaking, THAT'S truly where the black community fails its members. I dont believe for a second this ludicrous belief that asians are "smarter" than other races. The reason asians sometimes APPEAR "smarter" is because they are generally considered more scholarly and ultimately, more successful, relatively speaking. This isn't a genetic thing, its a socialization thing. What do you think happens when you're raised to think that "second best aint good enough," and that school is all important? That if you have to work twice as hard and twice as long to excel, then that's life and you'd better get started? You excel, of course. But now think about what happens if that same community of children is raised to think that the "man" is out to get them and that everyone is racist and they'll never succeed because their ancestors were oppressed by slavery? Theyre teaching their kids how to rationalize their failures before they even have a chance! And it makes things so easy, too. What's harder, blaming your failures on some imaginary group oppressing you and keeping you down, or owning up to the fact that YOU are the reason for your failures?
Ok so i'm generalizing. I'll admit that. But i'm sure other people see this as well. Even some successful black people still hold those age-old misconceptions. Look at all the hip hop song titles out there. ("Can't nobody hold me down," "Me against the world," "Trapped," etc) I like the music genre, but at the same time i see why the socialization is so wide-spread. It's everywhere: at home, with friends, in music, at the movies, everywhere. It's like the black community lives in a terminal state of paranoia with regards to people out to get them. Ok so maybe that's not entire all their fault. Yes, they've been heavily discriminated against. But what they need is not for their community to perpetuate this destructive idea, but for someone to stand up and say :
"ok guys, yeah we've been screwed over more times than we can count. But dwelling on it isn't going to get us anywhere. Our society has fallen into a deep hole right now, and the only way we're going to get out of it is to start climbing. Bitching about it ain't helping us, so try to keep that to a minimum, ok? If you slip on the climb up, whether its your own fault or not, keep climbing, faster and stronger. If you fall, pick yourself back up again and keep going. Because excuses are like a$$holes: everyone's got one, and they all stink. Perserverence and work is the ONLY thing that will ultimately get you out of this hole."
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