Adam Kokesh plans July 4th Gun March on DC w/ loaded guns..

[JTsyo]

Umm, ok. Assassination is murder, not protest. You are denying the rights of another by taking their life. That is where protest ends and crime begins. That is something I do not support.

While it can be argued that violence is a form of speech, again, it is something that denies the rights of others. The 1st Amendment does not allow one to infringe upon the rights of another, It merely lets you express yourself. That is what these people are doing. They are expressing themselves in a manner that does not infringe upon the rights of others or damage property.



Again, this infringes upon the rights of others. That is something I do not support. Yelling fire when there is no fire is a fraudulent statement, something the 1st Amendment does not protect. Just like you cannot knowingly make false statements about another person.

Tell me, how does marching in a peaceful manner infringe upon the rights of others?

Sure you can. It's up to them if they want to take you to civil court for libel. And that only holds true for published things. Just think about all the crap that gets spewed during elections.

You right to protest like this requires a permit in most cities. It would be irresponsible for the government to allow 1K armed people who are upset about matters to march through town and risk something going wrong.

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

So you think protests are protected by the first amendment as long as no one has their rights infringed upon by the protester?

Is not paying taxes a valid form of 1A protest? Can I carry a firearm in Illinois on a daily basis to protest our restrictive gun laws and still be protected by the 1st amendment? What about all of the conservatives that don't agree with Obamacare? Will they be allowed to not pay the tax (or penalty) if they don't want to participate in the system while claiming first amendment protections? I doubt it.

We have laws in this country. You have no first amendment right to break the law. If you views the law as unjust, you can break the law and try to fight that battle in the courts.

Further, I fail to see how carrying firearms can be considered speech. They can protest and march on DC all day long, but they must obey the laws or face the consequences. The first amendment will not protect them in this case.

 

[Thebobo]

Never heard of the guy and promise I wont remember his name, he's just looking for attention and it wont happen.

 

[BrayD]

So you think protests are protected by the first amendment as long as no one has their rights infringed upon by the protester?

Yes, that is what I believe.

Is not paying taxes a valid form of 1A protest? Can I carry a firearm in Illinois on a daily basis to protest our restrictive gun laws and still be protected by the 1st amendment? What about all of the conservatives that don't agree with Obamacare? Will they be allowed to not pay the tax (or penalty) if they don't want to participate in the system while claiming first amendment protections? I doubt it.

Actually, as long as you have your FOID, carry it in a locked case, and its unloaded, you are able to carry a firearm on your persons in Illinois. Now, in regards to actually openly carrying a loaded firearm, the 1st Amendment does not currently protect that. I do, however, believe it should. As for not paying taxes on something you do not agree with, I do believe that is a valid form of protest. The Federal Government, however, does not.

We have laws in this country. You have no first amendment right to break the law. If you views the law as unjust, you can break the law and try to fight that battle in the courts.

That is true, the 1st Amendment does not give you the right to break the law. You will be arrested, go to court, and based on that ruling, new precedents may be set. That is essentially what I said in my very first post. The police will step in, this will go to courts, and precedents will be set. The entire point of a protest is to change something you feel is unconstitutional. One of the quickest and easiest ways to do that is through the courts, not through legislation. Getting arrested is just one way to bring the issue into the courts.

Further, I fail to see how carrying firearms can be considered speech. They can protest and march on DC all day long, but they must obey the laws or face the consequences. The first amendment will not protect them in this case.

I fail to see how burning the American flag is speech, but is has been ruled as such. Just because one does not see the message in the act, does not mean it is not a form of speech. Yes, they will be arrested under current circumstances if they were to do it today. But just because it is not allowed currently does not mean they cannot petition the courts to allow it to happen. Ultimately it is the courts that decide whether laws are Constitutional or not.

Just to be 100% clear, these are my opinions. I am not trying to pass them off as fact.

 

[ElMonoDelMar]

As for not paying taxes on something you do not agree with, I do believe that is a valid form of protest. The Federal Government, however, does not.

I can't argue with your opinion.

 

[BrayD]

I see this as very similar to the 1989 Johnson v. Texas case. A peaceful march through Texas that ended with a burning of the flag at the State Capitol building. The burning of the flag was considered illegal under Texas law and Johnson was arrested. The case reached the US Supreme Court where it was determined that an individuals 1st Amendment rights superseded the State's interests. Now you can burn flags in Texas without fear of arrest if you so wish.

So it will be interesting to see how this planned protest will play out. The precedent has already been set that an individual's rights are more important than state law, now its just up to the courts to decide whether this is a form of speech or if DC's current gun laws infringe upon an individuals 2nd Amendment rights. This march will bring both issues to the forefront.

I can't argue with your opinion.

You asked if not paying for taxes is protected under the 1A. I essentially said no it is not, but I believe it should. I affirmed your statement that it is not protected while also giving my opinion that I believe it should.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Flag burning is intrinsically an expressive act. Carrying a gun is not. If I wanted to stage a Meth Fest in which I and others protested federal drug laws by smoking meth in public, we would all appropriately be arrested for committing crimes, regardless of our stated political motivation. Same thing as this march, fundamentally.

 

[moonbogg]

No chance of this happening. He won't find 1,000 people stupid enough to risk having their gun rights taken away forever just for his stupid little stunt. I'd love to see it happen though.

 

[irishScott]

No chance of this happening. He won't find 1,000 people stupid enough to risk having their gun rights taken away forever just for his stupid little stunt. I'd love to see it happen though.

All of you naysayers aren't on facebook, are you? Over 4000 have RSVP'd as "going" at this point, and it's a long way to July. If he has so much as a 25% turnout rate...

https://www.facebook.com/events/252728144871259/?ref=3

 

[irishScott]

Also, it seems like he intends to be smart about this. From the facebook event:

Should we meet physical resistance, we will peacefully turn back, having shown that free people are not welcome in Washington, & return with the resolve that the politicians, bureaucrats, & enforcers of the federal government will not be welcome in the land of the free.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Also, it seems like he intends to be smart about this. From the facebook event:

That does not deal with the question of what they will do if the authorities (who have a duty to do so) take action to arrest them, rather than simply letting them withdraw.

I think you're giving this dope too much credit by using the word "smart" to describe any part of this.

 

[irishScott]

That does not deal with the question of what they will do if the authorities (who have a duty to do so) take action to arrest them, rather than simply letting them withdraw.

I think you're giving this dope too much credit by using the word "smart" to describe any part of this.

I'm just saying that assuming he keeps to his word, it seems like he intends to manage this thing as well as can be expected. I agree that this is still a bad idea, but it doesn't appear as if he's forming an armed mob.

Here's the full event description.

On the morning of July 4, 2013, Independence Day, we will muster at the National Cemetery & at noon we will step off to march across the Memorial Bridge, down Independence Avenue, around the Capitol, the Supreme Court, & the White House, then down Constitution Avenue to peacefully return to Virginia across the Memorial Bridge. This is an act of civil disobedience, not a permitted event. We will march with rifles loaded & slung across our backs to put the government on notice that we will not be intimidated & cower in submission to tyranny. We are marching to mark the high water mark of government & to turn the tide. This will be a non-violent event, unless the government chooses to make it violent. Should we meet physical resistance, we will peacefully turn back, having shown that free people are not welcome in Washington, & return with the resolve that the politicians, bureaucrats, & enforcers of the federal government will not be welcome in the land of the free. "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson. Does the government fear the people? If not, something is wrong, and we aim to change it.

It is time to marshall forces and grow our numbers. Please share this page and invite all your friends. There are only two ways this goes down. 1) Obama issues an order to the DC Chief of Police who has pledged to violate the Constitution and we execute our plan with a police escort. 2) We are not allowed to enter the District and will halt the formation well before the line at which point, with the whole world watching, we will declare the federal government illegitimate, and peacefully disperse. I much prefer option one, and the more people we have on board, the more likely it is to happen. So share this page and spread the word! It looks like we're on track to clear 10k RSVPs well before the target of June 1. The more people think about this idea, the more they realize their fears are motivations, and their uneasiness turns to resolve. But let's not stop at 10k. Let's get 100k signed up so that Obama himself cannot ignore us! Who knows, maybe by Independence Day, we'll have a million people standing with us to declare that the federal government has no authority over free people when free people are not allowed in the nation's capitol!

This event is civil disobedience because we will be violating and/or attempting to violate various regulations that have been used to curtail freedom of speech and freedom of self-defense, however, this is in response to the DC Police refusing to follow the law of the Constitution. They have been in violation of court order and the law by continuing to enforce statures that have been ruled unconstitutional. This is one in a long train of abuses, but a government that cannot be trusted to follow its own rules cannot be trusted, and we cannot allow this lawlessness to continue. We must stop this criminal government!

You are welcome and highly encouraged to attend unarmed as a supporter, or armed with a recording device. Please RSVP in the affirmative ("Going") if you plan to attend as a witness. If there are any active duty military or law enforcement who would like to honor their oath to the Constitution by supporting this march, please contact: adam@adamvstheman.com. We especially invite law enforcement officers to stand with us armed however they feel is appropriate.

All who attend this march armed will be asked to stand and move in a military formation in order to maintain unity and safety. You will be expected to be dressed professionally, and there will be an inspection. As organizer, AVTM reserves the right to reject anyone from the formation at any time for any reason. There will be no use of recording devices by anyone once they have joined the ranks. If you'd like to film or photograph, please do so from outside the formation so there is no potential for confusion with hand motions. If you are not ACTIVE law enforcement, you will be asked to leave if you have any firearms other than a single rifle or shotgun slung across your back with the muzzle pointed down. Aside from adjusting the sling, you will not touch your weapon at any time during this event.

There's a remote chance that there will be violence as there has been from government before, and I think it should be clear that if anyone involved in this event is approached respectfully by agents of the state, they will submit to arrest without resisting. We are truly saying in the SUBTLEST way possible that we would rather die on our feet than live on our knees.

There will be coordination with all relevant law enforcement agencies prior to the event.

Thanks to all the donations that have come in, we will soon be able to hire someone to help organize and coordinate logistics. Please stand by for more on this by June 1.

This is not about me or any one person. This is about an idea whose time has come and therefor cannot be stopped by any amount of force or violence. If anything happens to me between now and Independence Day, this event and the movement behind it will continue. I am happy to face death in standing up for liberty, but I have done everything possible to ensure my death would be of little consequence by inspiring everyone to be their own leader.

Please join the conversation at: http://forums.adamvstheman.com/viewforum.php?f=13

Please see videos below, use them to help promote the event, and let me know what other links I should include by emailing: adam@adamvstheman.com

Adam Kokesh on CBS DC WUSA9 #OpenCarry130704
http://youtu.be/sraPLEQ70pw

Veteran supports the march! #OpenCarry130704
http://youtu.be/sEgR1OZoY2Y

Pro-gun advocate against armed march on DC? #OpenCarry130704
http://youtu.be/1mCvrdDHbj0

AVTM on Alex Jones: Armed March on DC July 4th #OpenCarry130704
http://youtu.be/Rsy__lxdkqM

 

[exdeath]

10,000 civilians with assault rifles vs 1,000 cops, if that, who can't get ammunition.

Lulz

 

[moonbogg]

All of you naysayers aren't on facebook, are you? Over 4000 have RSVP'd as "going" at this point, and it's a long way to July. If he has so much as a 25% turnout rate...

https://www.facebook.com/events/252728144871259/?ref=3

They will come to their senses and skip the event. Their gun rights can be taken away for this shit, at least long enough for them to be investigated and deemed to not be a threat. Who knows how long that might take.
If anything gets out of hand, this could be a disaster. I bet it never happens or things are changed, like not taking loaded guns but unloaded ones instead. It won't go down as stated.

 

[exdeath]

Disaster for who when 10,000 show up? The sound of "youre under arrest" followed by the sound of 10,000 AR bolts being released followed by... "uh nevermind..."

 

[irishScott]

Disaster for who when 10,000 show up? The sound of "youre under arrest" followed by the sound of 10,000 AR bolts being released followed by... "uh nevermind..."

Followed by the most broadly supported and sweeping gun control legislation in history passing the next day.

Anyone who thinks the scenario you just described would be a good thing for gun owners should turn in their guns, move to New York and vote for Cuomo; because that's obviously what they're working toward.

 

[moonbogg]

Disaster for who when 10,000 show up? The sound of "youre under arrest" followed by the sound of 10,000 AR bolts being released followed by... "uh nevermind..."

What disaster? You just described it. Do you hate guns? It sounds like you are trying to make the entire damn country afraid that "gun owners" might take over their town by force simply because they feel like it. We need to use the pen for fuck's sake. This armed march is a bad idea. It would be better to have hundreds of thousands of unarmed 2A supporters fill the street, not some small group of gun toters.

 

[Zxian]

How about people just make really simple, easy-to-see-that-they're-not-real, cardboard cutouts of the guns and use those instead. No issues with the open carry, and you still have a mass of people in a peaceful protest, with only the danger of paper cuts. You'd still have a group of 1,000-10,000 or however many supporters, without any danger to the public or fear of arrest. The symbolism is there, and that's all you need to get people's attention.

The media would have a field day if actual weapons were on the scene, but they'd still notice a protest march on the capital.

The organizers of this event need to realize that DC has it's own laws regarding open carry. It'd be the equivalent of trying to march from Nevada into California with your open carry. Still doesn't fly, and has nothing to do with the federal laws.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Followed by the most broadly supported and sweeping gun control legislation in history passing the next day.

Anyone who thinks the scenario you just described would be a good thing for gun owners should turn in their guns, move to New York and vote for Cuomo; because that's obviously what they're working toward.

Thanks for saving me the trouble.

The percentage of people who actually think around here never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Baked]

People are taking the 2nd Amendment way out of context, just like they do with religious literature. I think it's fine to own fire arms as long as it's for home defense and in case of foreign invasion, to protect yourself and your family. I don't think it's ok for some dumbasses to walk around in public waving loaded assault rifles to express their rights. All they would be doing is create panic amongst the population. Keep your fucking guns to yourself, and use it at the gun range where you won't accidently shoot somebody in the head due to your self righteous stupidity.

 

[exdeath]

Followed by the most broadly supported and sweeping gun control legislation in history passing the next day.

Anyone who thinks the scenario you just described would be a good thing for gun owners should turn in their guns, move to New York and vote for Cuomo; because that's obviously what they're working toward.

If they can't even stand up to a simple peaceful protest and show of force, pray tell how a new similar law would be enforced? That is the whole point of that exercise, to show that we outnumber them and they are ultimately powerless to disarm us, and that ultimately they can make all the laws they want and there are enough gun owners to give 0 fux. And. There. Is. Nothing. They. Can. Do. About. It.

Such legislation would only ensure that next time there will be 10 million armed protesters sticking together in civil disobedience, not just 10,000.

They are just pussies that feel high and mighty when they have a tactical advantage of 100 guys with assault rifles against 1 guy with a hand gun or some unarmed protesters throwing spit wads at their riot shields. Put them up against a few hundred thousand trained and experienced gun owners with equal firepower who can shoot back when shot at and see how quickly they yelp and turn tail.

If shit really got out of hand in this country, I promise it wont be like Iran where a dozen armed police can chase off unarmed crowds of 100,000+... there would be riot shield and body armor penetrating rifles sticking out of every window sill.

 

[exdeath]

How about people just make really simple, easy-to-see-that-they're-not-real, cardboard cutouts of the guns and use those instead.

Because that doesn't show fortitude and actual willingness to disobey "the man".

It would just show weakness and compliance, the exact opposite of the purpose of the exercise.

Or founders didn't wave paper guns at the British when they attempted to ban and confiscate firearms, they blew their fucking heads off.

A march with loaded weapons by a crowd outnumbering you at least 10:1 says "no more games, we are fucking serious". Empty holsters and paper guns says "we will bitch about it but we will comply anyway"

BTW not siding with or against them, just commenting on the philosophy behind it :awe:

 

[exdeath]

People are taking the 2nd Amendment way out of context, just like they do with religious literature. I think it's fine to own fire arms as long as it's for home defense and in case of foreign invasion, to protect yourself and your family. I don't think it's ok for some dumbasses to walk around in public waving loaded assault rifles to express their rights. All they would be doing is create panic amongst the population. Keep your fucking guns to yourself, and use it at the gun range where you won't accidently shoot somebody in the head due to your self righteous stupidity.

How convenient, you left out very purpose of the 2nd Amendment which this whole exercise is intended to convey in the first place.

 

[exdeath]

Oh and this guy is a crazy extremist. He wants to abolish our government? No, our government *system* is actually just fine, it's the people IN it abusing it and ignoring the limits of their power that need to be changed, not the system itself.

Personally, I believe in our system, but I give 0 fux about the people currently in it, or the people who put them there who think it's ok to take things from people without their permission.

Oh yeah, lets not forget all the law enforcement and military who straight up said they would refuse to enforce :awe:

A lot of bitter people in here who just can't accept that there is nothing they can do about it, with a tyrannical government on their side or not.

 

[Vic Vega]

People are taking the 2nd Amendment way out of context, just like they do with religious literature. I think it's fine to own fire arms as long as it's for home defense and in case of foreign invasion, to protect yourself and your family. I don't think it's ok for some dumbasses to walk around in public waving loaded assault rifles to express their rights. All they would be doing is create panic amongst the population. Keep your fucking guns to yourself, and use it at the gun range where you won't accidently shoot somebody in the head due to your self righteous stupidity.

I do keep my "fucking gun" to myself. :whiste:

You seem to be dishonest, am I wrong? You seem to have purposefully ignored the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Am I wrong?