8 to 10 pedestrians run down in Toronto.

[mdram]

Cell phones are not generally considered dangerous weapons.

unless its a gun that looks like a cell phone, they exist
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/company-invents-gun-folds-look-cellphone-n547221

 

[vi edit]

What's an incel?

 

[Thebobo]

Cell phones are not generally considered dangerous weapons.

Except in the US

 

[realibrad]

point being too early. and even if it is mental health, and even if mental health spending is quadrupled, this may still have happened. Just too many ifs at the moment.

Again, I don't think spending is the issue, so not sure why you are framing it that way.

So to be clear, my comment was on topic. You just feel like talking about solutions about what is right now being see as the issue, is too unproductive because its not official.

I think your mistake was not understanding the situation and the context of my comment. In no way was my comment off topic.

 

[realibrad]

What's an incel?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incel

This seems to be pretty good too.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=incel

aka "involuntarily celibate", a person (usually male) who has a horrible personality and treats women like sexual objects and thinks his lack of a sex life comes from being "ugly" when its really just his blatant sexism and terrible attitude. incels have little to no self awareness; even when they see other "ugly" men with girlfriends, they consider these men to be tricksters who have somehow beat the system and can get women despite being cursed with unattractiveness (in other words, theyre respectful to women and women are attracted to their personalities, but incels cant comprehend such a phenomenon). they believe that women owe them sex, and many of the more extreme incels like to spend time in incel communities on the internet coming up with ways to make women have sex with them (often involving genocide of people of color, genocide of "Chads" (men who have sex), taking rights away from women, raping them, having sex with women's dead bodies, and other horrid, disgusting things. they cant understand that that is PRECISELY why women want nothing to do with them).

 

[pmv]

Those troll posts right? They have to be. No one can be that fucking stupid can they? I mean.... this can't be real right?

There seems to be a striking overlap between the mentality of these guys and of ISIS types. They seem to be almost on the same page.

 

[realibrad]

There seems to be a striking overlap between the mentality of these guys and of ISIS types. They seem to be almost on the same page.

Yep. A mixture of mental issues and social systems and you get violent crazies.

 

[sdifox]

Again, I don't think spending is the issue, so not sure why you are framing it that way.

So to be clear, my comment was on topic. You just feel like talking about solutions about what is right now being see as the issue, is too unproductive because its not official.

I think your mistake was not understanding the situation and the context of my comment. In no way was my comment off topic.

So Canada has one issue when it comes to its health system. If you go through Medicare but wait months, or go private and pay out of pocket over $100 per hour. Not sure how this could be fixed.

read your own post and tell me you were not talking about Canada's Universal Health-Care.

 

[IronWing]

What's an incel?

Explanation here.

 

[realibrad]

read your own post and tell me you were not talking about Canada's Universal Health-Care.

I have said this now multiple times. I do not believe the issue is inherently one of spending. Presumably these people would get treatment if they could, but because of the long wait or personal cost they do not get what they need. So, you could hire more people, but if you believe that increases spending, then you are under the impression that the system is built to lower cost by not providing care. I don't know that to be true, so, rather than go into a discussion about that, I limited my comment to something more specific.

You then jumped in and said my comment about about there being a gap in the Canadian system where someone has to choose between a long wait, or very expensive out of pocket treatment and that not being on topic. It is, so now you seem to be trying to shift the conversation in any other direction.

This may very well be the necessary downside to the system, but I am talking about this one event and the specific failure and if there is a possible way to fix it. Its on topic, and you seem to be doing your best to go off topic.

 

[mdram]

but how do you know someone needs mental treatment unless you force periodic evaluations on the general public?

 

[realibrad]

but how do you know someone needs mental treatment unless you force periodic evaluations on the general public?

So two things. First, there is likely no good way of stopping 100% of these types of things. 2nd, what I have been talking about is allowing people to seek and receive treatment under their own will. Almost all of these types of people have long histories of issues and then something happens to cause a break. If you can give these people quality treatment, you are likely to reduce these types of incidents.

 

[Commodus]

but how do you know someone needs mental treatment unless you force periodic evaluations on the general public?

You encourage people to talk about their mental health issues; you educate the public on how to spot and properly engage with mental health issues; and importantly, you deliver strong public mental health care resources so that people actually can get help.

It's difficult to completely avoid situations like this, because some people will invariably refuse help, but it's notable that Canada has far fewer people flipping out in violent rampages than the US. Maybe it's that superior public health care system they have.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

but how do you know someone needs mental treatment unless you force periodic evaluations on the general public?

Two things should be understood. First and most importantly people need to understand that illness is not a failing. It is not an inferior person who suffers. The vast majority of people who qualify as having difficulties are not dangerous, no more than "sane" people.

But there is a stigma attached as harmful as racism. It can lead to ostracism, loss of jobs, of social stigma and being the victim of abuse physical or otherwise. So what happens? People hide their problems like blacks trying to "pass" decades ago. They are driven underground, afraid and with good reason. I'm not even talking the serious pathologies but minor depression that a hell of a lot of people have had or will. They're dangerous or could be, certainly not "normal?

With the prejudice so great there's great possible harm from "coming out". We need to change that thinking.

Then there's the matter of affordable, quality access readily available. There are not enough qualified people trained to deal with issues, to begin with. There's no support, no legal protections no rights afforded one who was gay or black. Disability act? That's a joke.

It's one of our great last prejudices, one we hold on to dearly as evidenced by lack of care and action.

That's the first and best answer. If someone has trouble then they need the social support to get treatment without the very real basis for fears which exist.

Sometimes people do harmful things that require their removal from society because they are neurologically broken. We need to care for them too. Perhaps when there are cases of violent action like domestic abuse that person needs to be restrained if necessary and along with any other action treatment is mandated, because of course we put a whole lot of resources on line, right?

Appropriate intervention as determined by professionally defined ways and means, humane treatment and an encouraging and protective society. Damned hard and not cheap but necessary.

 

[Paratus]

Incel? Canadian? Wasn’t BlueMax canadian? Hmm

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Incel? Canadian? Wasn’t BlueMax canadian? Hmm

I'm married so I'm starting to wonder if by default I qualify.....

 

[paperfist]

but how do you know someone needs mental treatment unless you force periodic evaluations on the general public?

See something, say something.

I had to go read up on what the heck the "incel rebellion" is about. Wow. I think I'm going to go for a walk in the desert and not think about people for awhile.

I now know why I don't like labeling things, people, groups. Now that I know that half of my friends are incel I want to go back in time and not have read this thread.

 

[Victorian Gray]

CBC News Alerts‏Verified account @CBCAlerts 3m3 minutes ago
CBC has learned Alek Minassian joined Canadian Forces last August, reported at St-Jean, Que. in Sept. Was asked to leave 16 days into 13-week basic training. Official says he wasn't adapting to lifestyle; no hint of behaviour that suggested possibility of Monday's rampage.

That appears to be incorrect. Apparently he resigned on his own

“The accused in the recent incident in Toronto, was a member of the Canadian Armed Forces for two months in late 2017 – from Aug. 23 until Oct. 25,” a spokesperson for the Canadian military said. “He did not complete his recruit training and requested to be voluntarily released from the CAF after 16 days of recruit training.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/4162755/toronto-van-attack-alek-minassian/

 

[Commodus]

Incel? Canadian? Wasn’t BlueMax canadian? Hmm

He is. This came up in another thread, but I can't help but think he's the sort who'd end up in a news story like this. Much like 0roo, he's terrified of anyone who doesn't look or act like him... especially strong women. I imagine him taking a woman's "no" as a betrayal. Let's hope for his sake that this isn't the case and that he's actually developing some empathy and social skills.

 

[Pneumothorax]

You encourage people to talk about their mental health issues; you educate the public on how to spot and properly engage with mental health issues; and importantly, you deliver strong public mental health care resources so that people actually can get help.

It's difficult to completely avoid situations like this, because some people will invariably refuse help, but it's notable that Canada has far fewer people flipping out in violent rampages than the US. Maybe it's that superior public health care system they have.

The fact that the US has close to 10x the population may have something to do with it also.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

The fact that the US has close to 10x the population may have something to do with it also.

That argument only holds up if the rate of occurrence in the US is only proportionally higher.

It’s not.

 

[realibrad]

That argument only holds up if the rate of occurrence in the US is only proportionally higher.

It’s not.

How about the fact that diversity is linked to higher crime rates? So considering that the US is far more diverse it would logically follow that it has higher crime rates. This was one of the negative findings in the Downside of Diversity.

There are also many many positives, but if you want an argument, that is one.

 

[Commodus]

How about the fact that diversity is linked to higher crime rates? So considering that the US is far more diverse it would logically follow that it has higher crime rates. This was one of the negative findings in the Downside of Diversity.

There are also many many positives, but if you want an argument, that is one.

Canadian cities are incredibly diverse and don't have nearly the same crime problem. Try again. And please don't imply that white separatists might be on to something.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

How about the fact that diversity is linked to higher crime rates? So considering that the US is far more diverse it would logically follow that it has higher crime rates. This was one of the negative findings in the Downside of Diversity.

There are also many many positives, but if you want an argument, that is one.

51.5% of the population of Toronto is a visible minority. 47.5% of Vancouver is and 32% of Montreal. Now compare crime rates and try again.

 

[Pneumothorax]

Canadian cities are incredibly diverse and don't have nearly the same crime problem. Try again. And please don't imply that white separatists might be on to something.

Canada is looking at 40% of babies born to minorities by 2031. Over 50% of US babies are born to minorities TODAY

Or maybe because we're just a much more violent culture with decades of lynching and slavery and all that stuff while you guys are perfect.

In all seriousness, I'd like to see statistics comparing socioeconomic status of the minorities that Canada is importing vs what the US is taking in... I don't think the fact of being a minority vs the the amount of poor people your southern neighbor is taking in while you guys get the cream of the crop.