Zen 2 APUs/"Renoir" discussion thread

[Kenmitch]

Then AMD should have NOT segmented Vega in desktop, at least not as much as making a Vega 6 SKU, simple as that. Leave the IGP defect dies for mobile and dont try to pass a SKU that performs slower than the one it is replacing at the same price, after all APU in desktop is a small market RIGHT?
Prices and segmentation are bussiness decisions, and cost is just one part of the product pricing. AMD is only able to get away with this due to having the APU monopoly.

What if the Vega 6 sku requires to much voltage to be in the mobile markets offerings? They should just throw them away and eat the loss?

 

[Shivansps]

What if the Vega 6 sku requires to much voltage to be in the mobile markets offerings? They should just throw them away and eat the loss?

Never said they should not do Vega 6 in mobile, AMD had desktop-only and mobile-only skus in the 2000 and 3000 series, they could have done the same here.

For example: Vega 11 has been desktop only in the 3000 series, Vega 6 has been mobile-only in the 2000 and 3000 series.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Surprisely, most people looking for office use goes for the 3200G rather than the 3000G, almost half of the 3000G sales are in combos paired up with dGPUs 1030/550/570/1650. I think Ryzen popularity has something to do with that.

That I can understand. A quad core for general duties is worth it.

Still, 1030/550 combos with 3000G are not worth it to me, those GPUS arent much faster than Vega 11, 3400G is a better choice.

That was not the point. The point was they're pretty identical in performance, so unless you're building ITX systems without the ability to add a discrete GPU, it shouldn't matter which one you choose.

 

[Shivansps]

That was not the point. The point was they're pretty identical in performance, so unless you're building ITX systems without the ability to add a discrete GPU, it shouldn't matter which one you choose.

You are mostly correct, if there are no other options thats the way to do it.

 

[LightningZ71]

Which is where the 3150 comes in. It's a better general use CPU than the 3000, but doesn't have the energy devoted to a big iGPU that it doesn't need. Paired with any low end GPU (that matters) it's going to be better at gaming than the 3000.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Surprisely, most people looking for office use goes for the 3200G rather than the 3000G, almost half of the 3000G sales are in combos paired up with dGPUs 1030/550/570/1650. I think Ryzen popularity has something to do with that.

Still, 1030/550 combos with 3000G are not worth it to me, those GPUS arent much faster than Vega 11, 3400G is a better choice.

So I'm not crazy throwing together a "gaming PC" with an Athlon 3000G in a cheap B450 board (no heatsinks on VRMs), OCing it to like 3800-3900Mhz, throwing on some 16GB DDR4-3200, and pairing it up with a GTX 1650 4GB D5 card?

Which is where the 3150 comes in. It's a better general use CPU than the 3000, but doesn't have the energy devoted to a big iGPU that it doesn't need. Paired with any low end GPU (that matters) it's going to be better at gaming than the 3000.

I'll have to look into this 3150 APU, they didn't have those out when I picked up my Athlon 3000G APUs. Are they 2C/4T, or 4C/4T?

https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-athlon-gold-3150g

Hmm, 4C/4T, up to 3.90Ghz, unlocked, OEM-only(!). Guess that you can get them ShivanSP, but not me.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

So I'm not crazy throwing together a "gaming PC" with an Athlon 3000G in a cheap B450 board (no heatsinks on VRMs), OCing it to like 3800-3900Mhz, throwing on some 16GB DDR4-3200, and pairing it up with a GTX 1650 4GB D5 card?

Why would that be crazy? That's a very competent system for older titles. As long as you're not expecting modern triple-A titles to run at high resolution with maximum detail levels, it'll run those too.

 

[Shivansps]

So I'm not crazy throwing together a "gaming PC" with an Athlon 3000G in a cheap B450 board (no heatsinks on VRMs), OCing it to like 3800-3900Mhz, throwing on some 16GB DDR4-3200, and pairing it up with a GTX 1650 4GB D5 card?

The GTX1650 non-Super? you will be GPU-bottlenecked 95% of the time. The 3000G is fine for that.

Which is where the 3150 comes in. It's a better general use CPU than the 3000, but doesn't have the energy devoted to a big iGPU that it doesn't need. Paired with any low end GPU (that matters) it's going to be better at gaming than the 3000.

That depends on the price, remember that the $99 3200G exist.

 

[LightningZ71]

I can't imagine that they can ask more than $79 for them. With the 3100 listed for $99 and being miles ahead of it in anything CPU related, and the 3200g setting the ceiling, it's got a very tight hole to be in.

 

[Gideon]

3400G vs 4600G:

4300G vs 4600G:

Looking at these videos 4600G seems to be consistently faster than 3400G. 4300G is indeed slower than 3400G (though is able to pull some wins, like Rocket League) but I struggle to visually see the difference .Hopefully they'll make a comparison video between these two and the 3200G too, but 4300G seems to slot in between the two.

Granted, this is with fast memory many 3200 CL16 or 3600 CL18 chips can hit 4133, just not with very tight timings.

Overall not great not terrible it seems.

I agree that it's dissapointing that AMD kept Vega cores and limited the CU count to 8 (how much would, say 12 CUs really bloated the die?). But I do get the engineering tradeoffs and why they thought it was necessary.

 

[moinmoin]

I'd like to see how much headroom for iGPU overclocking the 4000G chips each offer before hitting the RAM bandwidth bottleneck. With 11 CUs 3400G at stock is already very close to the bottleneck, so much so that 3200G with 8 CUs OCd can reach 3400G stock, while 3400G by far doesn't have the same OC range.

 

[Shivansps]

3400G vs 4600G:

4300G vs 4600G:

Looking at these videos 4600G seems to be consistently faster than 3400G. 4300G is indeed slower than 3400G (though is able to pull some wins, like Rocket League) but I struggle to visually see the difference .Hopefully they'll make a comparison video between these two and the 3200G too, but 4300G seems to slot in between the two.

Granted, this is with fast memory many 3200 CL16 or 3600 CL18 chips can hit 4133, just not with very tight timings.

Overall not great not terrible it seems.

I agree that it's dissapointing that AMD kept Vega cores and limited the CU count to 8 (how much would, say 12 CUs really bloated the die?). But I do get the engineering tradeoffs and why they thought it was necessary.

The 3400G is still outperforming the 4600G with just DDR4-3200 in a few cases what is impressive.
But i agree, the 4600G while dissapointing, it is a OK replacement to the 3400G.

The 4300G in other hand it looks like it will be below the 3400G almost always. It just cant be at the old 3400G price. Period.

I'd like to see how much headroom for iGPU overclocking the 4000G chips each offer before hitting the RAM bandwidth bottleneck. With 11 CUs 3400G at stock is already very close to the bottleneck, so much so that 3200G with 8 CUs OCd can reach 3400G stock, while 3400G by far doesn't have the same OC range.

Im under the impression that Renoir Vega has a lower "IPC" than Picasso Vega, the 4700G with DDR4-4133 is about 10-15% faster than the stock 3400G with just DDR4-3200. But the 3200G at 1600mhz with DDR4-3466 already matches a 3400G stock with DDR4-3466, im having a hard time beliving that the 4700G with a a massive clock and memory boost can only yield a 15% over that(actually less, due to the 3466vs3200). They not only decreassed the CU size, but they also cut the ROP size to half, that may have something to do with that. Ive asked TechEpiphany to do a Vega 8 IPC comparison...

 

[Shivansps]

This is not much, due to the games that were tested, but it is in line with the korean review.

 

[Gideon]

It does look that Renoir is seriously picking up steam, if AMD is production limited:

XMG facing 'serious' AMD Ryzen 7 4800H Renoir CPU shortage - VideoCardz.com

Shipment of certain Ryzen 4000H notebooks may take more time, pricing likely to increase. XMG has an order backlog of 1600 XMG Core 15 ‘AMD’ units XMG received confirmation from their Original Design Manufacturer (ODM) that they are facing a serious CPU supply shortage of Ryzen 4000H processors...

videocardz.com

XMG's Ryzen 4800H order (1600 units) has been postponed from middle of August to end of September. While the order is tiny it seems the shortage is universal and due-to demand from larger brands.

On July 31 we received an announcement from our ODM that we are facing a serious CPU shortage from AMD in Q3 2020. Large orders that have recently been confirmed to be shipped from our ODM in the middle and end of August are now supposed to be delayed until the end of September.
This is explained by a serious uptick in demand from larger brands and by what we assume bottlenecks in AMD’s production capacities.
Upon receiving this news on Friday (July 31), we reached out to our corporate contacts in AMD who confirmed that this is an industry-wide shortage and there is no way around it. We currently have an order backlog with our ODM on Ryzen 7 4800H of over 1600 units. Both AMD and our ODM have confirmed that our demand has been allocated (meaning: we will get those CPUs), but the goods won’t reach our ODM before End of September.

 

[Shivansps]

im starting to belive it is best to keep Renoir mobile-only.

 

[AtenRa]

They should had made a Zen 2 12nm Quad Core + HT with 12 CU APU for the Desktop market and keep the 7nm for mobile/OEM only.

 

[Gideon]

They should had made a Zen 2 12nm Quad Core + HT with 12 CU APU for the Desktop market and keep the 7nm for mobile/OEM only.

This might even be on Samsung 8nm or something similar to lessen reliance on TSMC, unfortunately they probably didn't see the wafer crunch incoming a year ago, when such a decision had to be made.

But one thing is clear, if even now they can't produce enough Renoir, they certainly could not have produced enough hypothetical 16MB cache and 12CU 8core versions

 

[Olikan]

But one thing is clear, if even now they can't produce enough Renoir, they certainly could not have produced enough hypothetical 16MB cache and 12CU 8core versions

I really don't expect more cores (and CUs) from the next 5nm chips, full product stack, yes even Genoa

 

[Shivansps]

This might even be on Samsung 8nm or something similar to lessen reliance on TSMC, unfortunately they probably didn't see the wafer crunch incoming a year ago, when such a decision had to be made.

But one thing is clear, if even now they can't produce enough Renoir, they certainly could not have produced enough hypothetical 16MB cache and 12CU 8core versions

I think the mistake was to use 7nm for Renoir, AMD should have realised that 7nm demand was going to be way too high due to console chips.

 

[moinmoin]

Increasing the CU count only makes sense once the RAM bandwidth bottleneck is lifted with DDR5 and the respective LPDDR counterpart. Then expect the (desktop) APUs to instantly reach the bottleneck of that.

 

[Shivansps]

Increasing the CU count only makes sense once the RAM bandwidth bottleneck is lifted with DDR5 and the respective LPDDR counterpart. Then expect the (desktop) APUs to instantly reach the bottleneck of that.

Tests results so far indicates that Vega 11 at 1400mhz with just DDR4-3200 is very competitive vs Vega 8 2100mhz with DDR4-4133. There still room to improve on DDR4.

 

[maddie]

I think the mistake was to use 7nm for Renoir, AMD should have realised that 7nm demand was going to be way too high due to console chips.

Now this is just a bit too excessive. Plans were probably made 1-2 yrs ago. There is just so much change one can expect to adapt to in the short term.

 

[RasCas99]

Ive read on videocardz (not sure how reliable they are) the XMG are having shortages in 4700H APU`s , around 1 month or more of delay , I hope its really down to higher demand and not to AMD not able to deliver on their contracts , if one thing Intel know how to do is ship in scale , AMD needs to keep its smaller partners happy with supply and not starve them for parts once they release a product , probably most of the volume goes to Sony and MS the big boys.

 

[uzzi38]

Tests results so far indicates that Vega 11 at 1400mhz with just DDR4-3200 is very competitive vs Vega 8 2100mhz with DDR4-4133. There still room to improve on DDR4.

If by competitive you mean it clearly performs worse than sure. The performance gap between the 4750G with DDR4-4133 and 3400G with DDR4-3200 is a much larger one than the 4350G with DDR4-4000 and 3400G with DDR4-3200 as far as I can see.

Actually, I just noticed a new video has been posted whilst I was writing out my reply here with some interesting results.

In Rocket League the 4300G pulls ahead significantly.


In The Witcher And Assassins Creed they're both effectively on par with one another.

In RE the 3400G pulls out ahead significantly.

Couple that with significantly better CPU cores, dedicated x16 link for the GPU and likely notably better overclockability and I'd say the 4300G is plenty competitive with the 3400G, if not an outright better value proposition.

 

[Shivansps]

If by competitive you mean it clearly performs worse than sure. The performance gap between the 4750G with DDR4-4133 and 3400G with DDR4-3200 is a much larger one than the 4350G with DDR4-4000 and 3400G with DDR4-3200 as far as I can see.

Actually, I just noticed a new video has been posted whilst I was writing out my reply here with some interesting results.

In Rocket League the 4300G pulls ahead significantly.


In The Witcher And Assassins Creed they're both effectively on par with one another.

In RE the 3400G pulls out ahead significantly.

Couple that with significantly better CPU cores, dedicated x16 link for the GPU and likely notably better overclockability and I'd say the 4300G is plenty competitive with the 3400G, if not an outright better value proposition.

It is worse, but the 4700G with 4133 vs 3400G 3200 was like what? 10%? Remember that we know, from the 3200G that Vega 8 at 1600mhz more or less matches the 3400G stock with the same rams, at 2100mhz with those rams should be way faster than that if not GPU bottlenecked. Its expected that gpu-light games, and specially shader-light games to perform better on Renoir due to the massive GPU clock diferences.

BTW those results are in line with the Korean review as well. Keep in mind that it is DDR4-4133 vs 3200, but it could be worse.