Yet another fast food worker strike

[BoberFett]

$8 is too low. $25 is too high. $15 is just right.

Surely you have scientific evidence for these numbers.

No? You pulled the number out of your ass? That's what I thought.

 

[nehalem256]

That's an important thing to note, it is not household income, it is a single person's income. Clearly with household income the requirement would be much lower.

Do you think a single mom with 2 kids deserves a living wage or not?

 

[WackyDan]

McDonald's managers make 40K/year. You call that a decent wage?!! And that is her very very top end. Pathetic.

40k to manage inventory and scheduling.

Back in the early 90's I supervised a number of retail locations. We paid our managers 24-28k per year to start. They would open the store, deal with the financials ( basic math, drops to bank), schedule employees, hire and fire - and half the time they couldn't even be relied on to hire and fire. It was a pretty simple fucking job, and the managers that were good were paid a little bit more. Retention was not a problem.

I've had this same conversation with people time and time again. Cashiers and other retail employees, including most managers are a dime a dozen. They handle fairly simple routine tasks and never have to solve complex problems or deal with the more intricate business and financial details. They get paid what they are worth given that scope of work, and every job has a floor and ceiling for salary. You hit the ceiling you are free to interview else ware or wait until the district supervisor/manager quits his and you can move up.

A 26 year old cashier at McDonalds is a far cry from being upwardly mobile. A far cry.

 

[BoberFett]

Your example assumes that 100% of an increase to the minimum wage is transmitted upwards to other jobs, which is obviously untrue.

It also assumes that 100% of a warehouse's costs are labor related, which is also obviously untrue.

If you were a semi-skilled worker making $20/hr and suddenly a teenaged moron in a hairnet is making almost as much as you, you're not going to be satisfied with your pay. Why go to all the trouble of self-improvement and increased responsibility for a couple bucks an hour? I predict that a massive change to minimum wage will ripple upwards far more than you think. Guess we'll see.

 

[fskimospy]

If you were a semi-skilled worker making $20/hr and suddenly a teenaged moron in a hairnet is making almost as much as you, you're not going to be satisfied with your pay. Why go to all the trouble of self-improvement and increased responsibility for a couple bucks an hour? I predict that a massive change to minimum wage will ripple upwards far more than you think. Guess we'll see.

How much do you think I think it would ripple upwards? How much do you?

 

[WackyDan]

And striking is now asking in a more forceful way.

Unfortunately, she has no value to the business to back up that forceful way in which is now demanding more pay for the same work.

No education. No skill set ( 26 and a cashier at McD's).

Add to that the hundreds of other equally skilled applicants ready to apply for her job at minimum wage pay. There is zero incentive for McDonalds whether it is a corp store or franchised store to pay her more.

Hope she enjoys her strike.

 

[fskimospy]

Unfortunately, she has no value to the business to back up that forceful way in which is now demanding more pay for the same work.

No education. No skill set ( 26 and a cashier at McD's).

Add to that the hundreds of other equally skilled applicants ready to apply for her job at minimum wage pay. There is zero incentive for McDonalds whether it is a corp store or franchised store to pay her more.

Hope she enjoys her strike.

I guess we'll find out!

 

[Veliko]

If you were a semi-skilled worker making $20/hr and suddenly a teenaged moron in a hairnet is making almost as much as you, you're not going to be satisfied with your pay. Why go to all the trouble of self-improvement and increased responsibility for a couple bucks an hour? I predict that a massive change to minimum wage will ripple upwards far more than you think. Guess we'll see.

Given that the minimum wage is a decades old concept that has been adopted in developed nations across the globe, it shouldn't be too hard for you to do a bit of research on your theory.

 

[Darwin333]

$8 is too low. $25 is too high. $15 is just right.

If $15 isn't a living wage, why is it just right? Exactly what is it about $15 that makes it the magical number?

 

[nehalem256]

If $15 isn't a living wage, why is it just right? Exactly what is it about $15 that makes it the magical number?

Its high enough to gain support from the proletariat while being low enough to not be laughably stupid to everyone else as a $20 or $25 minimum wage would be.

 

[WackyDan]

Sure. But I think the law should not have a variable min wage based on number of kids. $15 at least covers one adult's living wage and leave some room for a child, so public assistance can be reduced. $8 does not cover even one adult's living wage, so it puts undue burden on taxpayers.

That experiment has already been tried and is still happening with State and Federal Gov't. When you add funds for the number of offspring, all you get is more offspring and parents who could give a flying fuck all about raising them other than the increase in benefits to their EBT card, housing, etc.

We should stop offering incentive to the lowest common denominator of our citizen base to reproduce. Sorry, but it has to be said. There are multiple generations of the same family who have been and will continue to be life long consumers of public assistance. I'm not saying they all could care less about their children, but I've seen enough of it to place the percentage higher with them than any other demographic - with no division between race or ethic background.

Pay them a one time bonus to have their tubes tied and balls snipped the first time they apply for benefits. You leave it optional, but make the cash payout enough that more take it than less. You'll be removing the possibility of more boat anchors (children) to their upward mobility, putting less of a new generation into life long poverty and cause less tax dollars to be spent in that direction. It can't be the only solution, but part of one.

 

[desy]

She can try but I doubt they will succeed in that
However a couple of things. . only $600 per month takehome? 8.25*40*4 is 1350 before taxes, something is wrong there.
She has had a couple things derail in her life that has left her as a single parent and without child support so I am sympathetic to that. Things don't always pan out.

Alternative solutions would be to work more hours, if you are subsistence living maybe 50 hours a week is necessary and yes she's gonna need a support network of family and friends to lean on.
Ask for a raise or move on. I'm surprised at McD's Chicago for not having a progressive pay to a level When I worked at 7-11 as a teenager we had regular pay bumps after time accrued ABOVE min wage and pension and benefit plans 'weak but they existed' I recall my brother who worked at McD's had a similar experience

 

[theeedude]

If $15 isn't a living wage, why is it just right? Exactly what is it about $15 that makes it the magical number?

Should be enough to at least get most full time minimum wage workers out of poverty and/or off welfare. You don't think people working full time should live in poverty or on public assistance do you?

 

[BoberFett]

How much do you think I think it would ripple upwards? How much do you?

I suspect that you don't think it will have a noticeable effect. You usually wear blinders when it comes to your pet issues.

Just to pull numbers out of my ass* I'd guess that the upwards pressure of a minimum wage increase would begin at people who are making just over minimum wage that want to maintain their increase over minimum wage and on those making up to the new minimum wage plus the increase from the old minimum wage.

So a jump from $7.25 to $15.00 would mean people making up to $22.75 would expect an immediate bump. At the lower end of the scale, I would guess those people will expect to maintain 100% of their previous amount over MW, phasing out to 0% as it approaches the upper end. Someone making $8.25 now would expect $16.00 to maintain their $1.00 over MW, someone making $20 might expect $21.00. The largest increase would be in those right in the middle, someone making $15.00 right now would likely expect $18-20.

Of course all the way up the scale the middle class will see their prices increase, and the middle class lifestyle will decrease to meet the lower class, not unlike what's happening between the US and the third world, at a different scale.

Edit: I don't have the number of workers earning these various wage ranges to plug into this formula, and I'm not going to do the research right now. Be my guest however.



* If pulling numbers out of asses is good enough for those claiming to have the ideal minimum wage, it's good enough for me.

 

[nehalem256]

Should be enough to at least get most full time minimum wage workers out of poverty and/or off welfare. You don't think people working full time should live in poverty or on public assistance do you?

And per the experts a living wage for a single adult living in chicago is $10.48/hr. This is significantly below $15/hr.

So how did you come up with $15/hr?

 

[theeedude]

Yeah like half a kid :\

http://livingwage.mit.edu/places/1703114000

Feel free to pick what you think minimum wage should be based off of

1 adult = $10.48
1 adult + 1 child = $20.86
1 adult + 2 children = $25.51

Note that none of those are close to $15/hr

2 adults and 1 child is close to $15/hr per adult.
In any case, $15/hr is a lot closer to living wage than $8/hr.
Again, if you want a society where people working full time need food stamps and welfare to survive, OK, but then don't complain about 47% and government dependency.

 

[nehalem256]

2 adults and 1 child is close to $15/hr per adult.
In any case, $15/hr is a lot closer to living wage than $8/hr.
Again, if you want a society where people working full time need food stamps and welfare to survive, OK, but then don't complain about 47% and government dependency.

Per the site. 2 adults and 1 child need a living wage of $18.98/hr. That isn't really that close to $15.

Perhaps you should try advocating for a living wage of $19/hr?

 

[BoberFett]

Should be enough to at least get most full time minimum wage workers out of poverty and/or off welfare. You don't think people working full time should live in poverty or on public assistance do you?

Great, so a MW increase means we can cancel welfare altogether? Food stamps gone. Section 8 housing gone.

Make that a part of the proposal and you'll have Republicans on board.

But you won't make that deal, because you still want to keep people on those government bennies, that's your voter base. Can't have them losing dependence on Uncle Sugar.

 

[theeedude]

And per the experts a living wage for a single adult living in chicago is $10.48/hr. This is significantly below $15/hr.

So how did you come up with $15/hr?

Some people work for fast food places and have kids.
Also, they are asking for $15, they probably will get something less when it's negotiated. Plus there is inflation. If they asked for $10.48/hr, they would probably get $9, and then in year or two of inflation, they'd be back where they started, and have to strike again.

 

[theeedude]

Great, so a MW increase means we can cancel welfare altogether? Food stamps gone. Section 8 housing gone.

Make that a part of the proposal and you'll have Republicans on board.

But you won't make that deal, because you still want to keep people on those government bennies, that's your voter base. Can't have them losing dependence on Uncle Sugar.

You can reduce welfare if people are making enough money to support themselves. It's not a deal or no deal show. Low minimum wage is forcing more dependence on government programs. Working people need welfare and food stamps to survive. You want to continue down this road, OK. Again, it's a choice , but you have to live with the political consequences of when government dependence becomes a necessity for an increasing percentage of working people. More 47% moments coming up.

 

[fskimospy]

I suspect that you don't think it will have a noticeable effect. You usually wear blinders when it comes to your pet issues.

I've found that people often mistake "wearing blinders" for "actually looking at the empirical evidence" when the evidence tells them things they are ideologically predisposed not to like.

Of course it will have a noticeable effect. It would be absurd to think it wouldn't. Looks like you suspected wrong, huh?

Just to pull numbers out of my ass* I'd guess that the upwards pressure of a minimum wage increase would begin at people who are making just over minimum wage that want to maintain their increase over minimum wage and on those making up to the new minimum wage plus the increase from the old minimum wage.

So a jump from $7.25 to $15.00 would mean people making up to $22.75 would expect an immediate bump. At the lower end of the scale, I would guess those people will expect to maintain 100% of their previous amount over MW, phasing out to 0% as it approaches the upper end. Someone making $8.25 now would expect $16.00 to maintain their $1.00 over MW, someone making $20 might expect $21.00. The largest increase would be in those right in the middle, someone making $15.00 right now would likely expect $18-20.

Seems like a broadly reasonable idea to me.

Of course all the way up the scale the middle class will see their prices increase, and the middle class lifestyle will decrease to meet the lower class, not unlike what's happening between the US and the third world, at a different scale.

Whoops! You lost me there. This fails to account for decreased social safety net usage, second and third order spending issues, etc. There is actually a lot of academic research on the inflationary effects of minimum wage increases. They are modest.

Those blinders, man!

* If pulling numbers out of asses is good enough for those claiming to have the ideal minimum wage, it's good enough for me.

Sure, why not?

 

[BoberFett]

She can try but I doubt they will succeed in that
However a couple of things. . only $600 per month takehome? 8.25*40*4 is 1350 before taxes, something is wrong there.
She has had a couple things derail in her life that has left her as a single parent and without child support so I am sympathetic to that. Things don't always pan out.

Alternative solutions would be to work more hours, if you are subsistence living maybe 50 hours a week is necessary and yes she's gonna need a support network of family and friends to lean on.
Ask for a raise or move on. I'm surprised at McD's Chicago for not having a progressive pay to a level When I worked at 7-11 as a teenager we had regular pay bumps after time accrued ABOVE min wage and pension and benefit plans 'weak but they existed' I recall my brother who worked at McD's had a similar experience

Actually it's $1430/mo if you use 8.25 * 40 * 52 / 12.

If she's only bringing home $600 mo, she's working part time.

600 * 12 / 52 / 8.25 = 16.7 hours per week

If the MW warriors want this woman to make a livable wage, then this woman needs to be paid $35.93/hr.

15 * 40 / 16.7 = 35.93

Did we find yet another phony bleeding heart article?

 

[dawheat]

Why are Americans losing empathy? I totally agree that the example in the OP made some bad choices, but the attitude of "it's her fault, she deserves to live on the margins for the rest of her life" is dispiriting. For a "Christian" nation, it's downright horrifying - if there's a war on Christianity, it's in people's hearts, not Google's logo.

I'm not an economist so I don't know what the minimum wage should be. I do believe that it should be a living wage that isn't bare subsistence - it's not taking trips to Europe or buying the new iPhone, but it can't be living on a bag of beans and rice for a month either.

If that means that as a fellow American, I have to absorb some higher costs, then that's part of the social contract I believe is part of being an American. I don't want an exorbitant minimum wage, but one that gives an incentive for someone to work full time and not simply stay on welfare.

I want corporations to have a social contract with the places they choose to do business and the people they hire - that profit at the expense of all else cannot be the only goal, but having some ownership of the communities they're in and the people they employ.

Why do Americans accept and even praise corporations who devalue their employees and treat them as disposable resources. Why don't we expect and demand more?

 

[BoberFett]

I've found that people often mistake "wearing blinders" for "actually looking at the empirical evidence" when the evidence tells them things they are ideologically predisposed not to like.

Of course it will have a noticeable effect. It would be absurd to think it wouldn't. Looks like you suspected wrong, huh?

I don't know of any empirical evidence for a doubling of minimum wage. Feel free to educate me on a study of the real world effects of such a large increase.

Seems like a broadly reasonable idea to me.

That may be the closest thing to a compliment I've ever gotten from you. :wub:

Whoops! You lost me there. This fails to account for decreased social safety net usage, second and third order spending issues, etc. There is actually a lot of academic research on the inflationary effects of minimum wage increases. They are modest.

Those blinders, man!

Great, so then as I challenged senseamp, make the shutdown of benefits programs and tax cuts a part of your proposal. That will get even the coldest of Republicans on board with your idea! Increase minimum wage and cancel welfare! Everyone has to earn their keep! No more freeloaders! It's a Republican dream!

 

[desy]

I don't think the pay is the problem.
If that is all the industry is willing to pay and its legal then as an employee you know that. Your personal situation doesn't merit more, that's where social assistance can help with GED classes, tax breaks, food stamps etc.
After 10 years the message is clear from the employer.
In the early 90's I lost a job, took a lesser job and worked my way back up again, I was fortunate as I didn't have debt or dependants and could radically change my lifestyle.
Poor people I have compassion for