Yet another fast food worker strike

[nehalem256]

The irony is that in today's labor market, if fast food workers must pay $15/hour they can afford much better employees than she. For $15/hour I'd want some college as well as demonstrated math and computer skills.

Or at least someone attractive.

 

[werepossum]

While my thinking follows the typical "learn some skills and get a better job" path, I still feel bad for people who lost their higher paying jobs and had to take these positions. It makes me think about where technology will eventually take us. It seems like nearly all jobs could eventually be automated. I doubt this will happen in our lifetime, but what happens when nearly every job and every decision can be made better and quicker by machines? I'm a capitalist, through and through, but it seems like technology may eventually be its downfall - when there is no (or very little) demand for paid human workers, our system will need to change.

I feel bad for those people too, but I blame outsourcing and illegal immigration much more than technology. Technology increases societal wealth, so jobs displaced by technology tend to be more easily replaced (albeit with considerable effort on the part of the displaced) as the society has more wealth. It's different with outsourcing and illegal immigration as the net output is unchanged, you're just finding cheaper people to do the same work and moving the excess toward the top economic strata.

Nonetheless, Bobber Fett once made a profound point about the displacement from technological advances. At some point, technology becomes self-supporting as robots build robots. At that point, our entire society will have to be restructured.

One could also argue that a lesser singularity can occur more gradually (lol at "gradual singularity") since at some point society can have more net wealth to fund more jobs, yet be unable to find many new jobs worth paying someone to do. As the minimum wage increases, that becomes more of a concern. Yet if the minimum wage doesn't increase, then incentive to work declines. No easy answers here.

 

[BoberFett]

CBO can do the exact math. It's common sense that fewer people will be eligible for welfare and food stamps if they earn more money at work. I have no interest in explaining common sense things to people who can't figure them out for themselves.

The question is how much less. You want support for $15/hr, provide evidence in return of what it will save me, the taxpaying voter.

Were you dropped on your head as a baby? Or this morning?

 

[DrDoug]

Yea that is an outright falsehood. Note what happened in the 50's and 60's when unskilled factory worker compensation artificially skyrocked due to unionization. The american economy had explosive growth and prosperity. It has been the evisceration of highly paid unskilled labor by Republicans that has ruined America.

Blam! Nailed it. I find it interesting that so many conservatives love America in the abstract but despise many of their fellow Americans. They love some ideal nation that has never existed and hate anyone who doesn't measure up to their version of a "real American patriot". There are people out there doing the low paying shit work of making sure that things keep running and people are able to get the products and services they need. They get the 'little stuff' done so others don't have to do it themselves. What thanks do they get for this work? Shitty pay, no support and a go fuck off attitude from their cheap-assed customers.

These same people bitch about how shit costs more every year because it's their wallet it affects. They sympathize with others they view as being in their position but are unable to think of all of their fellow working Americans in the same way. They don't stop to think that if shit getting more expensive is hurting their bank accounts then it really must be devastating to those who labor at the bottom.

It's called the I Got Mine, Fuck You attitude and conservatives are full of it.

 

[werepossum]

Why are Americans losing empathy? I totally agree that the example in the OP made some bad choices, but the attitude of "it's her fault, she deserves to live on the margins for the rest of her life" is dispiriting. For a "Christian" nation, it's downright horrifying - if there's a war on Christianity, it's in people's hearts, not Google's logo.

I'm not an economist so I don't know what the minimum wage should be. I do believe that it should be a living wage that isn't bare subsistence - it's not taking trips to Europe or buying the new iPhone, but it can't be living on a bag of beans and rice for a month either.

If that means that as a fellow American, I have to absorb some higher costs, then that's part of the social contract I believe is part of being an American. I don't want an exorbitant minimum wage, but one that gives an incentive for someone to work full time and not simply stay on welfare.

I want corporations to have a social contract with the places they choose to do business and the people they hire - that profit at the expense of all else cannot be the only goal, but having some ownership of the communities they're in and the people they employ.

Why do Americans accept and even praise corporations who devalue their employees and treat them as disposable resources. Why don't we expect and demand more?

Why are the only options here (1) Her current job is magically advanced to $15/hour and (2) She deserves to live on the margins for the rest of her life? Has she no innate abilities or value? Has she no ability to work harder, seek training, ask for more duties and responsibility, develop skills? Why does she get a free pass to bypass the human condition? By the way, the poverty level mentioned in the article is for a family of four. Should a minimum wage employee be able to support three other people?

Then what we're talking about is tariffs. If so, bshole has it backwards. The dems supported low tariffs to limit the cost to consumers, the repubs high ones to help protect our industries.

The repubs lost this battle long ago (IIRC circa 1930).

Many Dems/Libs/progressives can't keep their ideologies straight.

Fern

Historically true, but today's Democrats are much more protectionist than are today's Republicans. And while it's certainly a bipartisan effort, Democrats are better at opposing free trade in general.

Or at least someone attractive.

lol I didn't actually notice her when I read the article, but yes.

Just to put this into perspective, $15/hour is about media wage for EMTs and paramedics. If Ms. Salgada gets her way, how long before it needs to be $25/hour?

Source: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000

 

[theeedude]

The question is how much less. You want support for $15/hr, provide evidence in return of what it will save me, the taxpaying voter.

Were you dropped on your head as a baby? Or this morning?

Do you want to discuss things objectively, or do you want to resort to lame personal attacks, like the one above? You can't have both. Your choice.

 

[Oldgamer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bshole

Yea that is an outright falsehood. Note what happened in the 50's and 60's when unskilled factory worker compensation artificially skyrocked due to unionization. The american economy had explosive growth and prosperity. It has been the evisceration of highly paid unskilled labor by Republicans that has ruined America.

Blam! Nailed it. I find it interesting that so many conservatives love America in the abstract but despise many of their fellow Americans. They love some ideal nation that has never existed and hate anyone who doesn't measure up to their version of a "real American patriot". There are people out there doing the low paying shit work of making sure that things keep running and people are able to get the products and services they need. They get the 'little stuff' done so others don't have to do it themselves. What thanks do they get for this work? Shitty pay, no support and a go fuck off attitude from their cheap-assed customers.

These same people bitch about how shit costs more every year because it's their wallet it affects. They sympathize with others they view as being in their position but are unable to think of all of their fellow working Americans in the same way. They don't stop to think that if shit getting more expensive is hurting their bank accounts then it really must be devastating to those who labor at the bottom.

It's called the I Got Mine, Fuck You attitude and conservatives are full of it.

Exactly.. and that is why I want to see Unions make a comeback. I think they can and now is a good time for these folks to band together and start forcing change.

 

[BoberFett]

Do you want to discuss things objectively, or do you want to resort to lame personal attacks, like the one above? You can't have both. Your choice.

You've made it clear you have no intention of discussing anything. I've asked for facts or even conjecture, and you've done nothing but dodge the question.

Now, go back to eating your vegetables picked by illegal immigrants so you saved you $0.05, and tell us more about how you think people need to earn more money.

 

[trenchfoot]

How 'bout we just figure out how much the cost of living has increased since the last minimum wage hike and figure that in toward what it should be now?

Too simplistic? How so?

edit - Or better yet, let's tie the minimum wage with the percentage increases that our CEO's keep getting year after year yet the working class sees stagnation year after year?

 

[nehalem256]

Why are the only options here (1) Her current job is magically advanced to $15/hour and (2) She deserves to live on the margins for the rest of her life? Has she no innate abilities or value? Has she no ability to work harder, seek training, ask for more duties and responsibility, develop skills?

Wasn't the point made that she has worked had McDonalds for 9 years or so and not gotten a raise?

I would think the answer should be obvious based on that.

Why does she get a free pass to bypass the human condition?

Because that is what the Democratic Party stands for. Obligations only run one way. We are obligated to support people like her. But people like her have no reciprocal obligation to in anyway try to better themselves or even minimize the burden they place on society(such as by not having multiple bastard children). Hell, democrats even complain when Republicans suggest that people on welfare should be required to make sure their kids go to school D:

By the way, the poverty level mentioned in the article is for a family of four. Should a minimum wage employee be able to support three other people?

Oddly enough she has only 3 people in her family, so why did they bring up the poverty line for a family of 4?

 

[theeedude]

You've made it clear you have no intention of discussing anything. I've asked for facts or even conjecture, and you've done nothing but dodge the question.

Now, go back to eating your vegetables picked by illegal immigrants so you saved you $0.05, and tell us more about how you think people need to earn more money.

Looks like you chose lame personal attacks, as I expected. Good night to you, sir.

 

[ivwshane]

Businesses do everything in their power to lower costs and increase profits, why shouldn't workers try and do everything in their power to work less and earn more?

Stockholm syndrome indeed.



Anyone here old enough to remember reading stories and studies about how technology will allow the American worker to work less and be more productive? What happened?

http://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/the-late-great-american-promise-of-less-work-1561753129


As werepossum said, there isn't an easy answer to this issue but I sure as hell don't blame the American worker for wanting and demanding to be paid more.

 

[D-Man]

So if we decide the min wage should be $15 per hour and call it a living wage what about Social Security? The average payout is $1,294 per month this comes very close to $8 per hour. I know some will say this is to supplement retirement it was not meant to be a retirement plan. It could be argued that people only receiving this amount just made it by in companies with no retirement plans never received assistance and barely scraped by. What do we do for them.

 

[ivwshane]

So if we decide the min wage should be $15 per hour and call it a living wage what about Social Security? The average payout is $1,294 per month this comes very close to $8 per hour. I know some will say this is to supplement retirement it was not meant to be a retirement plan. It could be argued that people only receiving this amount just made it by in companies with no retirement plans never received assistance and barely scraped by. What do we do for them.

That's actually a good question and although I think baby boomers are the worst generation ever, I believe social security should be a living wage. Why? Because more and more older people are working jobs that would once go to teens and the skill-less as well as retiring at an older age which means less mobility for those that are younger.

However, I believe a livable retirement income to be a societal issue and as such the burden falls on everyone to chip in. What does that mean? Removing the cap on ss taxes for the wealthy and increasing the ss tax paid by businesses.

It's really a win, win for everyone.

 

[D-Man]

ivwshane I heard it said once that God must love the common man because he made so many of them. Saying the baby boomers are the worst generation ever condemns to many common men and women who's goal in life were to own a home and raise a family. But your take on taxes are spot on. I am a baby boomer retired and worked hard all my life as many of us have. Greed on the other hand has been around a long.

 

[nehalem256]

Canceling welfare wouldn't make any sense but you would be able to dramatically reduce spending on various social welfare programs. That's a plus, right!?

Ah. I think this finally explains where the $15/hr figure originates.

High enough to rouse the mob into a fever of support so the Democrats get votes

Low enough that they will still depend on the government so they won't then think of voting Republican.

Brilliant!

 

[Matt1970]

http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/01/news/companies/fast-food-worker-strike/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Again, the sob story about a 27 year old woman with 2 kids (one being 8 years old, so she was preggers at 18)... With no father in the picture for her two kids... Who thinks she should be paid twice what she currently is just to survive... Who hasn't skipped a meal in 15 years and is obese... Is going on strike in the next few days to attempt to fix this injustice.



Why do I not have any sympathy? Is there something wrong with me? CBD?

Hi. I ignored every piece of advice given me throughout my like like getting some job skills or a higher education and preparing financially before having a kid, but now I wish to blame my poverty of corporate greed.

 

[nehalem256]

Hi. I ignored every piece of advice given me throughout my like like getting some job skills or a higher education and preparing financially before having a kid, but now I wish to blame my poverty of corporate greed.

I think you mean kids. Not only did she ignore every piece of advice. Apparently she ignored her own experience from having the first kid in abject poverty as well.D:

No wonder she hasn't gotten a raise from McDonald in 10 years :sneaky:

 

[Matt1970]

Yea that is an outright falsehood. Note what happened in the 50's and 60's when unskilled factory worker compensation artificially skyrocked due to unionization. The american economy had explosive growth and prosperity. It has been the evisceration of highly paid unskilled labor by Republicans that has ruined America.

Blam! Nailed it. I find it interesting that so many conservatives love America in the abstract but despise many of their fellow Americans. They love some ideal nation that has never existed and hate anyone who doesn't measure up to their version of a "real American patriot". There are people out there doing the low paying shit work of making sure that things keep running and people are able to get the products and services they need. They get the 'little stuff' done so others don't have to do it themselves. What thanks do they get for this work? Shitty pay, no support and a go fuck off attitude from their cheap-assed customers.

These same people bitch about how shit costs more every year because it's their wallet it affects. They sympathize with others they view as being in their position but are unable to think of all of their fellow working Americans in the same way. They don't stop to think that if shit getting more expensive is hurting their bank accounts then it really must be devastating to those who labor at the bottom.

It's called the I Got Mine, Fuck You attitude and conservatives are full of it.

You left out one small detail. In the 50's and 60's people were forced to pay the higher prices brought on by the unskilled factory worker compensation artificially skyrocketed or they went without. Now instead of just paying the higher prices or going without they can just buy cheaper imported crap. Our lack of options back then protected artificially skyrocketed wages.

 

[nehalem256]

You left out one small detail. In the 50's and 60's people were forced to pay the higher prices brought on by the unskilled factory worker compensation artificially skyrocketed or they went without. Now instead of just paying the higher prices or going without they can just buy cheaper imported crap. Our lack of options back then protected artificially skyrocketed wages.

From the 1950s:

Prior to the 1959 strike, the major American steel companies were reporting high profits. This led McDonald and Steelworkers general counsel Arthur J. Goldberg to request a major wage increase. But industry negotiators refused to grant a wage increase unless McDonald agreed to substantially alter or eliminate Section 2(b) of the union's national master contract.[1][6][7][8]

Section 2(b) of the steelworkers' contract limited management's ability to change the number of workers assigned to a task or to introduce new work rules or machinery which would result in reduced hours or lower numbers of employees. Management claimed that this constituted featherbedding and reduced the competitiveness of the American steel industry

In the long run, the strike devastated the American steel industry. More than 85 percent of U.S. steel production had been shut down for almost four months. Hungry for steel, American industries began importing steel from foreign sources. Steel imports had been negligible prior to 1959. But during the strike, basic U.S. industries found Japanese and Korean steel to be less costly than American steel, even after accounting for importation costs. The sudden shift toward imported steel set in motion a series of events which led to the gradual decline of the American steel industry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_strike_of_1959

So, not only did the unions want higher wage. They wanted to prevent companies from becoming more efficient at production...

Then unions wonder why they have lower membership now? :hmm: HINT: Its because their former workers are now unemployed.

 

[WackyDan]

I think you mean kids. Not only did she ignore every piece of advice. Apparently she ignored her own experience from having the first kid in abject poverty as well.D:

No wonder she hasn't gotten a raise from McDonald in 10 years :sneaky:

I once had a debate in another forum about this...

Me: She hasn't received a raise because she either isn't worth it, or doesn't have the balls to negotiate.

Them: It isn't FAIR that those that have the skills to negotiate get raises. EVERYONE should get the same raise.

Liberal logic at play there. If you work harder than anyone else, and have the nuts to document your success then that is just a variable in your personality and it isn't fair that your peer, Jane or John Doe are too timid to look out for themselves.

 

[Tombstone1881]

So, you are saying that child bearing should only be left to the wealthy?

 

[Matt1970]

So, you are saying that child bearing should only be left to the wealthy?

So you are saying people should just ignore every piece of advice given to them and just "do it and worry about the repercussions later"?

 

[Veliko]

So you are saying people should just ignore every piece of advice given to them and just "do it and worry about the repercussions later"?

That's some nehalem logic right there.

 

[Tombstone1881]

Following that criteria, then NOBODY EVER would have enough money to raise a child.

That would be like demanding that anybody who wants to own a house, pay for it in cash upfront.