YACT: Holy Hell in a handbasket. Update: Compression check done. Results; Dismal. Update: Engine is alive.

[Colt45]

leanness burning up engines sucks :'(

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Colt45
leanness burning up engines sucks :'(

At least it's not some performance engine that I hand built or something. Then I'd be furious at myself.

It's actually kinda funny to see such carnage come from a meager 1.5L, sub-100HP engine. :laugh:

 

[angminas]

There are two ways to look at this.

1. At least if you trashed an engine it was only a Tercel engine.

2. You trashed a Tercel engine? NOOOO BASTRD

I can't figure out which I like more. I will ask the beer.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: angminas
There are two ways to look at this.

1. At least if you trashed an engine it was only a Tercel engine.

2. You trashed a Tercel engine? NOOOO BASTRD

I can't figure out which I like more. I will ask the beer.

:laugh:

I doubt I really trashed the engine. Won't know until I get the head off.. but chances are the bores are OK.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: BUTCH1
Try a new set of plugs and see what happens, and your driving habits are going to have to change.
Your car is now 17 years old and must be driven in a more moderate fashion if you wish to continue
driving it..Also it's not uncommon for ANY 17 year old engine to have problems with valve stem seals.
The GT @ 90 was barely breaking a sweat while your ride was @ warp 9 on the edge of a warp core
meltdown, just drive it as intended and enjoy the MPG as gas gets insane again. Installing a great stereo
is a good diversion, I did that when I had my Escort, it helped....

:laugh:

This cracks me up every time because the 2nd part is so so true.

But the other stuff is nonsense, IMO. Cars are meant to be driven. If you can't drive it, it wasn't going to last much longer anyway. Edit: I know this isn't really true, it's just my philosophy. It relies on proper routine maintenance, knowledge and understanding of your engine. Unfortunately I broke some sh!t while learning about my engine... It happens.

I would have had no problem cruising at 90 if my sparkplugs wouldn't have melted, lol.. which was a symptom of presumably a few things, none of which had much to do with the engine itself. For now I'll assume that it was a combination of leanness and spark plug heat range, although how lean it actually is remains to be told.

As for the valve stem seals.. I know, but the problem was really ridiculous on the Tercels. We're talking about a fair amount of smoke after like 60,000 miles. Stock seals are nitrile, but viton seals are widely available.

I've seen remanufactured heads for under 100$. It's a simple SOHC 12 valve engine. They are not expensive, so as long as the pistons and bores appear to be okay, it won't be a big deal since I wanted to do it anyway. I enjoy this kind've stuff, it's good fun to me. It's the best way to learn.

 

[iamwiz82]

Did you have the windows down? Usually pinging is fairly hard to hear. It sounds like a bunch of little things ended up causing the problem.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
Did you have the windows down? Usually pinging is fairly hard to hear. It sounds like a bunch of little things ended up causing the problem.

I did, but I wouldn't have been able to hear anything @ 90.

It was almost certainly the extended WOT run that ultimately did it. When you're constantly on and off the gas, things have a chance to cool off.

It still shouldn't have happened though, and was ultimately a result of my making too many assumptions without proper followup. I really should've looked at the new plugs before the 500 mile trip..

Not just because of the heat range change, but that is the proper way to diagnose whether your carburetor is dialed in correctly or not. I neglected to do it, and was instead relying on how the engine ran.. which can be misleading, since you actually get the best performance slightly lean..

I was on the right track with the plug heat range I think, though.... The plugs in #3 and #4 were very clean! LOL.

When I fix the engine, I'll try out the "#4" plugs.. and properly check them by accelerating hard, immediately shutting the engine off, and coasting to a stop.

 

[ISAslot]

:Q

*Hugs his 87 Tercel*

But a turbo engine transplant does sound like fun

 

[Aikouka]

Take the ol' head off and see what you did . But if you wanna see engine carnage, Eli, you should see what my Talon looked like when I bought it :Q. The owner threw a rod... right through the engine block :laugh:. I don't have the old "engine" or the bad pistons anymore, but I still have pictures of them... and they aren't great lookin'.

 

[funboy6942]

Cylinder #1: 65PSI
Cylinder #2: 45PSI

Call me crazy, but after reading that, seeing the plug, and noticing, the psi in #1 & #2 I would say you cracked the head, or blew the head gasket, the water rushed into those two cyls and caused the spark plug damage. That low of PSI next to each other is a indication of a compression leak between the two escaping into the block or cooling system.

Take the #1 plug out, and get a air hose adapter to fit into the head and hook it up to your air compressor and pop off your rad cap. When you start to pump it full of air and you start to hear air escape, it you dont have bubbles pouring out of your radiator, then its going into the block.

But Id bet dollars to donuts thats what happened, and caused what it did, and why you have low pressure at #1 and #2 and not 3 & 4, and why the spark plug went to crap with a huge rush of water going into a super hot chamber . Not to mention if you didnt doctor up the pic, that looks like a milky substance on the the pic of the plug.

I didnt read all the replies, please ignore if this has already been brought up.

 

[Old Hippie]

You guys are much handier and optomistic than I. I'm sure, I would have already picked a grave site.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: funboy42
Cylinder #1: 65PSI
Cylinder #2: 45PSI

Call me crazy, but after reading that, seeing the plug, and noticing, the psi in #1 & #2 I would say you cracked the head, or blew the head gasket, the water rushed into those two cyls and caused the spark plug damage. That low of PSI next to each other is a indication of a compression leak between the two escaping into the block or cooling system.

Take the #1 plug out, and get a air hose adapter to fit into the head and hook it up to your air compressor and pop off your rad cap. When you start to pump it full of air and you start to hear air escape, it you dont have bubbles pouring out of your radiator, then its going into the block.

But Id bet dollars to donuts thats what happened, and caused what it did, and why you have low pressure at #1 and #2 and not 3 & 4, and why the spark plug went to crap with a huge rush of water going into a super hot chamber . Not to mention if you didnt doctor up the pic, that looks like a milky substance on the the pic of the plug.

I didnt read all the replies, please ignore if this has already been brought up.

This thought has crossed my mind, actually. I did notice that suspicious substance on the plugs. . I equated it to the cylinder not firing, yet recieving moist air.. condensation.

I don't know though. I suppose the gasket could've gone. That would seem kinda weird though... engine temps were normal and such.

I'll definitely check into it...

PS: I rarely do anything more than adjust the size of a picture I take, and anything I do is clearly stated in the picture name(ie: IMG_001_levels_800x600.jpg). Edit: OK I lied, I didn't say the pics in the OP were resized. I've been using Picasa instead of Photoshop because... I don't have Photoshop on my laptop, lol.. I don't think I really like Picasa.

I did notice that the plugs in #1 and #2 were much more lose than the ones in #3 and #4. There are two scenarios here:

I didn't torque them down as much as the other two(I really need to invest in a torque wrench), which could've contributed to them overheating..

Or that side of the engine overheating caused them to loosen up. It's obvious they melted, even if the gasket blew and water intrusion indeed did cause the ceramic to shatter...

 

[Pacfanweb]

Changing the plugs definitely didn't cause this problem.

I agree that it's too suspicious that only two cylinders next to each other are the ones without compression.

Another "trick" you can use to see if the head gasket is blown or head cracked, is remove the radiator cap, fire it up. let it get warm, and just watch the coolant....if it has bubbles steadily coming up, that's probably what your problem is.

Also, how about your overflow bottle? Was it full, and if so, did it suddenly go empty? That would also indicate a loss of coolant.

 

[Eli]

Hmm.. I'll go investigate further.

 

[Eli]

lol

Well, that was easy. Head gasket blowage most likely confirmed. Goop under radiator cap, and missing coolant. Should've checked earlier.

Hmm. Suckage. That radiator is brand new.. I better flush it out ASAP.

Doesn't really change a whole lot overall, I figured I was going to replace the head anyway.

Anybody know where I can get a cheap reman head for a 3E? lol

 

[CrackRabbit]

Originally posted by: Eli
lol

Well, that was easy. Head gasket blowage most likely confirmed. Goop under radiator cap, and missing coolant. Should've checked earlier.

Hmm. Suckage. That radiator is brand new.. I better flush it out ASAP.

Doesn't really change a whole lot overall, I figured I was going to replace the head anyway.

Anybody know where I can get a cheap reman head for a 3E? lol

There are a couple of awesome Pick-A-Part places here in portland. One in the Tualatin area the other is off of Foster road. I don't know how easy it would be to find a head for your Tercell though.

 

[Raduque]

Ouch, man Eli, I feel for ya.

I blew the head gasket on my 88 Accord a couple months ago, I think it was due to the fact that the oil leaked out and caused the engine to overheat and boil the coolant all out, then when I replaced the coolant and the oil it was too late, damage was done...... except my temp gauge never read that the engine was overheating! I haven't done anything to it except curse and fume after I checked the dipstick.

 

[funboy6942]

Junk yard we used to buy heads at would have them already taken off the cars and magnafluxed (sP), checked for cracks, ready to buy. Any time you get into a situation where you have lost compression at two adjacent cylinders its a cracked hear or gasket. So you just had it go and that was what caused your plugs to do what they did, and then you had the 2 steps hotter plugs in there and really made them go boom.

You may just be lucky and it could just be the gasket and not have a head issue though, wont know till you take the head off and see. Have it checked out, even if you see the gasket is the problem, for small cracks cannot always be seen with the naked eye, so have it magged to be sure. And since you have it off would be a good time to go get your valve seals put in and your valves replaced and/or the seat/valves reground, if of course you plan on keeping the car for a bit. You have great compression on the 3 & 4, so the engine seems to be in good shape, may warrant the extra steps to the head since you have to take it off.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Changing the plugs definitely didn't cause this problem.

I agree that it's too suspicious that only two cylinders next to each other are the ones without compression.

I don't know that it's that suspiscious. Those are the two cylinders where the plugs shattered and sharpnel ran through the cylinders. Makes sense to me. A little coincidental that it was those two, but not enough to make me suspiscious.

ZV

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: Old Hippie
You guys are much handier and optomistic than I. I'm sure, I would have already picked a grave site.

And I love people like you cuz I would of bought your car from you for less then $50, stuck another $200-$300 in it fixing the head/gasket problem, and resold the car for $1500 making me a nice little profit in a matter of days

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Changing the plugs definitely didn't cause this problem.

I agree that it's too suspicious that only two cylinders next to each other are the ones without compression.

I don't know that it's that suspiscious. Those are the two cylinders where the plugs shattered and sharpnel ran through the cylinders. Makes sense to me. A little coincidental that it was those two, but not enough to make me suspiscious.

ZV

If it got that hot, and was not the head gasket that caused the water to do that to the plugs, I highly doubt there was any metal at all that was bouncing around in there to cause the head/gasket problem. If it was hot enough to melt the tip of the plug that stuff then became part of the head or piston and welded itself to something.

I would bet he was cruising at that high of speed, 2 steps hotter plug, big mistake there, would of only jumped one if it were me, the engine was hotter then snot, racing at 5000 rpm, when the gasket said no more causing water to rush in, hit that hotter then hell plug, and did what you see in the picture. Cool 190 degree watter on a 1000+ degree plug and metal parts, will cause that and a hell of alot more like bent valves, cracked head/pistons, and if all he got away with is a messed up sparkplug and the tip melted to the piston he is very lucky.

Now the million dollar question would be did the other end of the spark plug after it fell off make itself part of another piece, or has it been bouncing around in the chamber, scratching the hell out of the cylinder wall? I wouldnt start that car no more till the head comes off and see

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Changing the plugs definitely didn't cause this problem.

I agree that it's too suspicious that only two cylinders next to each other are the ones without compression.

I don't know that it's that suspiscious. Those are the two cylinders where the plugs shattered and sharpnel ran through the cylinders. Makes sense to me. A little coincidental that it was those two, but not enough to make me suspiscious.

ZV

That was my original line of thinking too, but it definitely appears that the head gasket is blown. It is a little strange, since the only "abnormal" thing about the engine at the time of failure was full output operation, but I guess if a head gasket is going to fail, that would be the time.

The engine was nice and cool the whole way. I replaced the thermostat because it was sticking. I'd estimate it was opening at something like 240º instead of the normal 190º. The gauge would consistently read in the upper 3/4 range, which gradually happened over the year or so I've owned it. With the new thermostat and radiator, it runs at or below the half way point on the gauge.

Anyway, it never ate a drop of coolant before, and it was missing at least a quart.. plus the goop under the cap, and on the plugs... yeah.

I guess I'll clean the garage up and get ready to pull the head tonight. Gotta figure out what the extent of the damage is before I can really proceed. Bleh.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: funboy42

If it got that hot, and was not the head gasket that caused the water to do that to the plugs, I highly doubt there was any metal at all that was bouncing around in there to cause the head/gasket problem. If it was hot enough to melt the tip of the plug that stuff then became part of the head or piston and welded itself to something.

I would bet he was cruising at that high of speed, 2 steps hotter plug, big mistake there, would of only jumped one if it were me, the engine was hotter then snot, racing at 5000 rpm, when the gasket said no more causing water to rush in, hit that hotter then hell plug, and did what you see in the picture. Cool 190 degree watter on a 1000+ degree plug and metal parts, will cause that and a hell of alot more like bent valves, cracked head/pistons, and if all he got away with is a messed up sparkplug and the tip melted to the piston he is very lucky.

Now the million dollar question would be did the other end of the spark plug after it fell off make itself part of another piece, or has it been bouncing around in the chamber, scratching the hell out of the cylinder wall? I wouldnt start that car no more till the head comes off and see

The question isn't really about the metal, although that in itself is fairly concerning ... but more importantly the missing center ceramic insulator. Plug #2 was actually worse than #1, which would support the debris or burned valve theory(lower compression).

Hey, this is almost like a religious discussion! :laugh:

Although, much more rational and level-headed.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Raduque
Ouch, man Eli, I feel for ya.

I blew the head gasket on my 88 Accord a couple months ago, I think it was due to the fact that the oil leaked out and caused the engine to overheat and boil the coolant all out, then when I replaced the coolant and the oil it was too late, damage was done...... except my temp gauge never read that the engine was overheating! I haven't done anything to it except curse and fume after I checked the dipstick.

Unless the hot coolant hit the thermostat before it went bye-bye, your car never knew.

 

[edro]

Canned air can do a lot for keyboards.