XFX Radeons to be Available January 5th

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ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
61
91
Originally posted by: nosfe
why not? you've got nothing to lose
You lose personal integrity as a result. That, is more important than trying to save a few bucks. You can't ever right your wrongs... But you can make more money.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
1,421
0
0
I don't know why they don't separate Video forum into two sections. That way everybody stays where they belong...
 

ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
61
91
Originally posted by: solofly
I don't know why don't they separate Video forum into two sections. That way everybody stays where they belong...
Actually, this is a good idea. Although I would be in both forums as I can care less what video card I own. I only care about the best at the time of my purchase. But, I think seperating the forums would be a great idea. But, that probably would not happen because people love drama and it brings more hits for the forum.
 

AmberClad

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
4,914
0
0
If you guys want to propose/discuss changes to the forum structure, then we have a place for that, but it's not this subforum.

With that said, if you don't have anything substantive to add to this discussion of upcoming XFX ATi cards, then you don't need to be in this thread.

- AmberClad
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
Originally posted by: solofly
I don't know why they don't separate Video forum into two sections. That way everybody stays where they belong...
They should break it down into 3 sections.

Video Cards
-> ATi
-> Nvidia
-> GPGPU / Physics

By the way here's some pictures. 4850 has a nice dual slot cooler.
http://www.cpu3d.com/news/6945...der-on-scan/story.html
That 4850 could almost pass as a 9800. Looks similar.
 

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
5,664
0
0
Originally posted by: chizow
Ouch, no overclocked offering. Guess XFX found out what we already knew, AMD parts just aren't very good at overclocking. Still, if AMD managed by some miracle to beat NV in single-GPU performance with their DX11 part I'd get an XFX part for sure. Would certainly be worth it to avoid that clown Gr33ng3cko from Sapphire.
Full of SHIT.

Gainward HD4850 Golden Sample. 700mhz vs 625mhz. More then a 10% increase. That's right up there with the fastest clocked GTX280's, in terms of an overclocking increase.

I don't have numbers for lowerend cards, but I'm sure they can do the same. The HD4870 is more of an exception, and is probably very close to it's limit allready (yet stable).

Also, since XFX announced it 3 weeks ago, and are offering cards right now, they probably didn't have time to get out oc-ed cards. Because if I recall correctly, it always takes a little while for oc-ed cards to enter the market.

I'm not backing up solofly with his comment regarding Keys, but this forum is going down the drain. And it's pretty sad to say the least.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Originally posted by: chizow
Ouch, no overclocked offering. Guess XFX found out what we already knew, AMD parts just aren't very good at overclocking. Still, if AMD managed by some miracle to beat NV in single-GPU performance with their DX11 part I'd get an XFX part for sure. Would certainly be worth it to avoid that clown Gr33ng3cko from Sapphire.
Full of SHIT.

Gainward HD4850 Golden Sample. 700mhz vs 625mhz. More then a 10% increase. That's right up there with the fastest clocked GTX280's, in terms of an overclocking increase.

I don't have numbers for lowerend cards, but I'm sure they can do the same. The HD4870 is more of an exception, and is probably very close to it's limit allready (yet stable).

Also, since XFX announced it 3 weeks ago, and are offering cards right now, they probably didn't have time to get out oc-ed cards. Because if I recall correctly, it always takes a little while for oc-ed cards to enter the market.

I'm not backing up solofly with his comment regarding Keys, but this forum is going down the drain. And it's pretty sad to say the least.
Marc, the default clock speed of a 4870 is 750 stock. It's no surprise that a 4850 could reach 700.
On the same note however, I just took a look at Newegg and searched 4870. Default is 750 core, but MSI, ASUS, Powercolor, HIS are all offering overclocked models. ASUS offering the highest at 815 core. Which is pretty much inline with what most people were obtaining without any voltage mods or water. 800 to 825.
It is odd though. XFX was always the first out the door along with BFG with O/C'd models. Maybe your right Marc, maybe o/c'd versions will follow. After all, XFX only decided to offer ATI cards 3 weeks ago, right? Or was it that they just announced it then?
 

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
5,664
0
0
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Originally posted by: chizow
Ouch, no overclocked offering. Guess XFX found out what we already knew, AMD parts just aren't very good at overclocking. Still, if AMD managed by some miracle to beat NV in single-GPU performance with their DX11 part I'd get an XFX part for sure. Would certainly be worth it to avoid that clown Gr33ng3cko from Sapphire.
Full of SHIT.

Gainward HD4850 Golden Sample. 700mhz vs 625mhz. More then a 10% increase. That's right up there with the fastest clocked GTX280's, in terms of an overclocking increase.

I don't have numbers for lowerend cards, but I'm sure they can do the same. The HD4870 is more of an exception, and is probably very close to it's limit allready (yet stable).

Also, since XFX announced it 3 weeks ago, and are offering cards right now, they probably didn't have time to get out oc-ed cards. Because if I recall correctly, it always takes a little while for oc-ed cards to enter the market.

I'm not backing up solofly with his comment regarding Keys, but this forum is going down the drain. And it's pretty sad to say the least.
Marc, the default clock speed of a 4870 is 750 stock. It's no surprise that a 4850 could reach 700.
On the same note however, I just took a look at Newegg and searched 4870. Default is 750 core, but MSI, ASUS, Powercolor, HIS are all offering overclocked models. ASUS offering the highest at 815 core. Which is pretty much inline with what most people were obtaining without any voltage mods or water. 800 to 825.
It is odd though. XFX was always the first out the door along with BFG with O/C'd models. Maybe your right Marc, maybe o/c'd versions will follow. After all, XFX only decided to offer ATI cards 3 weeks ago, right? Or was it that they just announced it then?
Wow sarcasm, that's a first !

Anyways, XFX probably started producing ATI cards only until very recently. Maybe they dont't have the same expertise regarding ATI cards, as they do with nVidia cards? Who is to say, you? Maybe they are working overtime to get all the marketing done for all the regular models, maybe production capacity isn't up to full speed yet, and they can only get out a few 'stock' models? I could probably pull more reasons out of my ass, but I bet XFX nor BFG offered oc-ed models right when they came out with their first nVidia videocards.

Also, your overclocking argument is complete nonsense. It's hard to put this into words, but a e7200 can reach stock clocks of a e8400 as well, without a voltage increase. Is that not a true overclock? Should it be dismissed? Because that's what you're saying, a crippled version reaching stock clocks of it's bigger brother is not a good overclock, because it's bigger brother does equal/more mhz at stock? That's not the definition of overclocking, but that definition doesn't suite you, so you have to try and change it.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Full of SHIT.

Gainward HD4850 Golden Sample. 700mhz vs 625mhz. More then a 10% increase. That's right up there with the fastest clocked GTX280's, in terms of an overclocking increase.

I don't have numbers for lowerend cards, but I'm sure they can do the same. The HD4870 is more of an exception, and is probably very close to it's limit allready (yet stable).

Also, since XFX announced it 3 weeks ago, and are offering cards right now, they probably didn't have time to get out oc-ed cards. Because if I recall correctly, it always takes a little while for oc-ed cards to enter the market.

I'm not backing up solofly with his comment regarding Keys, but this forum is going down the drain. And it's pretty sad to say the least.
Right, so a 4850 should have enough overhead to reach 4870 speeds with enough voltage and cooling, which isn't unexpected as that's what a 4870 is, an overclocked 4850 with GDDR5. But that doesn't leave much overclocking headroom for the 4870 does it? Again, you're pointing out a single example to the contrary and calling bullshit for a lack of overclocked parts for the last 2-3 years? At least a few others came up with a plausible explanation with backup with regards to ATI's policy on vendor overclocked parts.

As for your speculation with regards to XFX, EVGA, BFG, etc. they do typically have their entire OC line available at launch, with often 1 or more OC'd variants offered in addition to a stock model. Also SSChevy2001's link above seems to indicate XFX is offering a XXX offering at launch.....with 25MHz overclocks for both the 4850 and 4870.

And as for these forums going down the drain? Have you really been here long enough to know? Nothing seems to have changed from as long as I can remember. A vocal, overwhelming majority of ATI/AMD/underdog supporters crying about a vocal minority of Nvidia/Intel/favorite supporters. Heh.
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,052
570
126
Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Originally posted by: taltamir


it is impossible to detect if someone overclocked a chip.
Whether or not they can detect an overclock is a moot point, as ethically, you should not try and claim warranty when you have knowningly violated it. You wouldn't do that, would you?
:thumbsup:

Back OT- I think XFX will be a good addition to the AMD board partners. Allowing overclocking and the double lifetime warranty is great. Now we just need to get EVGA to jump on board.

I remember a few years back that customer service was pretty poor with XFX. Has that changed? I haven't had an XFX card for awhile so I haven't kept up.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Originally posted by: Elfear
Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Originally posted by: taltamir


it is impossible to detect if someone overclocked a chip.
Whether or not they can detect an overclock is a moot point, as ethically, you should not try and claim warranty when you have knowningly violated it. You wouldn't do that, would you?
:thumbsup:

Back OT- I think XFX will be a good addition to the AMD board partners. Allowing overclocking and the double lifetime warranty is great. Now we just need to get EVGA to jump on board.

I remember a few years back that customer service was pretty poor with XFX. Has that changed? I haven't had an XFX card for awhile so I haven't kept up.

Wait, did I miss something? I thought someone said there is no OC policy on XFX AMD cards...

 

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
5,664
0
0
Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Full of SHIT.

Gainward HD4850 Golden Sample. 700mhz vs 625mhz. More then a 10% increase. That's right up there with the fastest clocked GTX280's, in terms of an overclocking increase.

I don't have numbers for lowerend cards, but I'm sure they can do the same. The HD4870 is more of an exception, and is probably very close to it's limit allready (yet stable).

Also, since XFX announced it 3 weeks ago, and are offering cards right now, they probably didn't have time to get out oc-ed cards. Because if I recall correctly, it always takes a little while for oc-ed cards to enter the market.

I'm not backing up solofly with his comment regarding Keys, but this forum is going down the drain. And it's pretty sad to say the least.
Right, so a 4850 should have enough overhead to reach 4870 speeds with enough voltage and cooling, which isn't unexpected as that's what a 4870 is, an overclocked 4850 with GDDR5. But that doesn't leave much overclocking headroom for the 4870 does it? Again, you're pointing out a single example to the contrary and calling bullshit for a lack of overclocked parts for the last 2-3 years? At least a few others came up with a plausible explanation with backup with regards to ATI's policy on vendor overclocked parts.

As for your speculation with regards to XFX, EVGA, BFG, etc. they do typically have their entire OC line available at launch, with often 1 or more OC'd variants offered in addition to a stock model. Also SSChevy2001's link above seems to indicate XFX is offering a XXX offering at launch.....with 25MHz overclocks for both the 4850 and 4870.

And as for these forums going down the drain? Have you really been here long enough to know? Nothing seems to have changed from as long as I can remember. A vocal, overwhelming majority of ATI/AMD/underdog supporters crying about a vocal minority of Nvidia/Intel/favorite supporters. Heh.
I'm not talking about upping the voltage, afaik you can't change voltage on a vidcard unless you do some serious modding and/or bios flashing. Just plain old overclocking, and a HD4850 overclocks just fine.

My speculation regarding to having oc-ed parts at launch is pretty plausible. You can't compare a new generation of nvidia videocards, to the first ever ATI card XFX is producing. When nVidia launches something, vendors probably have something to work with long before launch. Right now XFX just wants those ATI parts out of the door, and I bet they didn't have much time to put on different coolers and/or better overclocks.

As for the fora, maybe that's what it looks like to you, hell, maybe that's how it is. But it would be weird to think all those AMD supporters are always wrong and crazy, and the minority of nVidia supporters ( who are outnumbered as you put it ) are always right. That would indeed be very weird. IMO, there is such an overwhelming ATI supportgroup, because everytime ATI/AMD does something, the nvidia fanboys, focusgroupmembers and focusgroupmembers wannabe's have to make it into something bad, whilst everything nVidia does is considered the next best thing to happen to computerhardware and should be seen as superior.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Full of SHIT.

Gainward HD4850 Golden Sample. 700mhz vs 625mhz. More then a 10% increase. That's right up there with the fastest clocked GTX280's, in terms of an overclocking increase.

I don't have numbers for lowerend cards, but I'm sure they can do the same. The HD4870 is more of an exception, and is probably very close to it's limit allready (yet stable).

Also, since XFX announced it 3 weeks ago, and are offering cards right now, they probably didn't have time to get out oc-ed cards. Because if I recall correctly, it always takes a little while for oc-ed cards to enter the market.

I'm not backing up solofly with his comment regarding Keys, but this forum is going down the drain. And it's pretty sad to say the least.
Right, so a 4850 should have enough overhead to reach 4870 speeds with enough voltage and cooling, which isn't unexpected as that's what a 4870 is, an overclocked 4850 with GDDR5. But that doesn't leave much overclocking headroom for the 4870 does it? Again, you're pointing out a single example to the contrary and calling bullshit for a lack of overclocked parts for the last 2-3 years? At least a few others came up with a plausible explanation with backup with regards to ATI's policy on vendor overclocked parts.

As for your speculation with regards to XFX, EVGA, BFG, etc. they do typically have their entire OC line available at launch, with often 1 or more OC'd variants offered in addition to a stock model. Also SSChevy2001's link above seems to indicate XFX is offering a XXX offering at launch.....with 25MHz overclocks for both the 4850 and 4870.

And as for these forums going down the drain? Have you really been here long enough to know? Nothing seems to have changed from as long as I can remember. A vocal, overwhelming majority of ATI/AMD/underdog supporters crying about a vocal minority of Nvidia/Intel/favorite supporters. Heh.
IMO, there is such an overwhelming ATI supportgroup, because everytime ATI/AMD does something, the nvidia fanboys, focusgroupmembers and focusgroupmembers wannabe's have to make it into something bad, whilst everything nVidia does is considered the next best thing to happen to computerhardware and should be seen as superior.

Wow this thread was already back on topic for 3 posts before it got dragged off again. :thumbsup:


I guess we will have to see what XFX does with the OC cards. If they arent going to warrant overclocking, or be able to get higher clocks then every other ATi parter, at that point you have to say it is the chips. Because XFX isnt exactly conservative when it comes to the nV cards.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
I'm not talking about upping the voltage, afaik you can't change voltage on a vidcard unless you do some serious modding and/or bios flashing. Just plain old overclocking, and a HD4850 overclocks just fine.
So again, you've pointed out one example that again, is not much of a surprise given a 4870 isn't much more than an overclocked 4850 with GDDR5. The exception does not make the rule.

My speculation regarding to having oc-ed parts at launch is pretty plausible. You can't compare a new generation of nvidia videocards, to the first ever ATI card XFX is producing. When nVidia launches something, vendors probably have something to work with long before launch. Right now XFX just wants those ATI parts out of the door, and I bet they didn't have much time to put on different coolers and/or better overclocks.
Rofl, I'd say 6 months of RV770 availability should've been sufficient, especially since they don't make any of their own parts to begin with. They're buying boards from the same few suppliers as the rest of AMD's board partners, expecting significantly different overclocking results is wishful thinking. But we'll see. I'd say the 25MHz "XXX" versions are pretty good indication I'm right.

As for the fora, maybe that's what it looks like to you, hell, maybe that's how it is. But it would be weird to think all those AMD supporters are always wrong and crazy, and the minority of nVidia supporters ( who are outnumbered as you put it ) are always right. That would indeed be very weird. IMO, there is such an overwhelming ATI supportgroup, because everytime ATI/AMD does something, the nvidia fanboys, focusgroupmembers and focusgroupmembers wannabe's have to make it into something bad, whilst everything nVidia does is considered the next best thing to happen to computerhardware and should be seen as superior.
People like you are so transparent. You claim to be neutral or indifferent but your tone and wording betray you. Again, you clearly haven't been around long enough to know, the general preference for AMD/ATI stems from rooting for the underdog and to a lesser degree appreciating the cheap value and overclocking options of their parts relative to the expensive and restrictive parts of the favorites like Intel, Nvidia, Microsoft etc. Its OK, I used to think the same way, but then I got a job and realized you get what you pay for. ;)
 

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
5,664
0
0
I'm not expecting anything tbh. I just don't find it weird they don't have a toxic edition out, or a 815mhz clocked part like Asus.

I clearly realize there's fanboys on both sides, and I bet both could have a decent argument, you know what you're talking about most of the time. But once nVidia's marketingploys come into play, it gets UGLY. And maybe my words betray me, but not in the sense you think. I'm vocal against people trying to downplay ATI, and making Nvidia look like the holy grail. I'd be equally vocal if people would suddenly start making dx10.1 the next best thing, or ATI's cuda counterpart. On this forum it just happens to be onesided, people downplaying ATI and praising nVidia.

I neither support ATI or nVidia. I've owned both, and will own both depending on the pricing. For me it's all about performance, within my budget of course, and even though these fora might go to shit, it won't stop me from buying nVidia. Hell, if I knew Jen-Hsun kills bunnies and eats kittens for lunch I'd still not care :p
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
0
0
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
On this forum it just happens to be onesided, people downplaying ATI and praising nVidia.
Pure denial & pure BS.

Every PhysX thread gets crapped to death, every negative rumor on Fudzilla/stINQ gets posted as truth, Rollo/Keys constantly get chased by pitch forks & torches, the 48xx series gets treated like the invention of nuclear fusion, every obscure benchmark from a third world country gets scoured to try and post an obscure view, every ATI fanatic touts how unbiased they are (yourself included), etc, etc.

Stop crying and whining, start stalking about video cards and related technology.

It's like this forum needs a large dose of midol. :disgust:





:beer: Here's to XFX and their new product line, much success :beer:
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Heh, well no point in further derailing this thread, you're certainly entitled to your opinion Marc, although I'm really not sure how you can come to the conclusion this forum is biased against ATI/AMD. I'll just leave it with this thought. Nvidia supporters will typically discuss the issues. ATI/AMD supporters would rather dismiss the message not based on its own merit, but based solely because they believe its from a "paid employee".
 

MegaWorks

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
3,819
1
0
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
On this forum it just happens to be onesided, people downplaying ATI and praising nVidia.
Pure denial & pure BS.

Every PhysX thread gets crapped to death, every negative rumor on Fudzilla/stINQ gets posted as truth, Rollo/Keys constantly get chased by pitch forks & torches, the 48xx series gets treated like the invention of nuclear fusion, every obscure benchmark from a third world country gets scoured to try and post an obscure view, every ATI fanatic touts how unbiased they are (yourself included), etc, etc.

Stop crying and whining, start stalking about video cards and related technology.

It's like this forum needs a large dose of midol. :disgust:





:beer: Here's to XFX and their new product line, much success :beer:
Because people don't gave a crap about PhysX. Now Stop crying and whining and give it a rest will you!!! :roll:
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Originally posted by: Wreckage
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
On this forum it just happens to be onesided, people downplaying ATI and praising nVidia.
Pure denial & pure BS.

Every PhysX thread gets crapped to death, every negative rumor on Fudzilla/stINQ gets posted as truth, Rollo/Keys constantly get chased by pitch forks & torches, the 48xx series gets treated like the invention of nuclear fusion, every obscure benchmark from a third world country gets scoured to try and post an obscure view, every ATI fanatic touts how unbiased they are (yourself included), etc, etc.

Stop crying and whining, start stalking about video cards and related technology.

It's like this forum needs a large dose of midol. :disgust:





:beer: Here's to XFX and their new product line, much success :beer:
The current Physx thread was someone asking if there worth in consideration of Physx yet. Sorry that it seems that most people are sitting on the sidelines as it has not yet inpressed most of us. I'm all for hardware accelerated physics, but so far what I've seen is not impressive from Physx... on the Mirrors Edge video, OOO! A red banner. OOO! Another red banner. What's that I see up ahead I get with Physx? A red banner! Suh-weet! When they use it for more then banners and particles bouncing around I'll be all for it.

Fud/Inq rumors are posted, but I don't think anyone takes them and runs with them as truth. If someone does, that's their own problem, I think everyone here takes them for what they're worth, a rumor and nothing more.

I won't touch on Rollo or Keys. I think they can add value to this forum at times, and there are plenty of times it'd be better if they didn't post in some threads.

Yup, people like the 48x0 series cards. What's not to like? For under $200 I now get performance that Nvidia would have charged me $450 for if they were the only player with that level of performance. When the 8800GT launched people loved it for the performance it offered for it's cost. This is just an 8800GT situation all over again.

I guess I don't see how known sites like Anandtech showing reviews of cards being quite competitive is third world country benchmarks. Is it that you don't belive that the 4870 is near the performance of Nvidia's GTX260 cards? It really is.

I think there is somewhat of a rift here. But a lot of what seems to be pro-AMD/ATI posting is the way it is directly because of the Nvidia fanboys. It seems any positive AMD/ATI related thread lately is turned to shit by the Nvidia guys.

Yup, congrats to AMD for luring XFX over. I know you think the 48x0 cards are no good, but obviously even at least one preferred Nvidia partner (and other Nvidia board makers - Gainward has been enjoying 48x0 sales for some time) feels there is something there, enough to make the switch. If XFX does well with the Radeon cards I wouldn't be suprised to see EVGA or BFG build cards for both companies. At this point, I think the one real ace up Nvidia's sleeve was that it's board makers were just better overall... better warranties, better perks, better more aggressive factory overclocks in general. This levels that playing field a bit, assuming XFX offers similar perks with AMD cards.
 

ronnn

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
3,918
0
71
Originally posted by: chizow
Heh, well no point in further derailing this thread, you're certainly entitled to your opinion Marc, although I'm really not sure how you can come to the conclusion this forum is biased against ATI/AMD. I'll just leave it with this thought. Nvidia supporters will typically discuss the issues. ATI/AMD supporters would rather dismiss the message not based on its own merit, but based solely because they believe its from a "paid employee".
They know it is from 2 paid employees ...
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Originally posted by: ronnn
Originally posted by: chizow
Heh, well no point in further derailing this thread, you're certainly entitled to your opinion Marc, although I'm really not sure how you can come to the conclusion this forum is biased against ATI/AMD. I'll just leave it with this thought. Nvidia supporters will typically discuss the issues. ATI/AMD supporters would rather dismiss the message not based on its own merit, but based solely because they believe its from a "paid employee".
They know it is from 2 paid employees ...
Chizow, if you posted a thread asking if you should get a 4870 or a GTX260, and Hector Ruiz replied suggesting you get the 4870 would you think you are getting a worthwhile opinion? An answer where Hector really looked at what you asked and what he knows about both cards pros and cons and gave you the best suggestion for you, not for his own motives?
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
0
0
Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
OOO! A red banner. OOO! Another red banner. What's that I see up ahead I get with Physx? A red banner! Suh-weet!
Originally posted by: MegaWorks

Because people don't gave a crap about PhysX.
Thank you both for proving my point. You go around complaing about people getting free video cards, yet you both post this shit for free.

It makes you no better. Actually it makes you far worse, because at least Keys and Rollo identify themselves in their sig. You and others go on and on about how unbiased you are and it's just a steaming sack of bullshit.

Get the mirror out the next time you need to cry about bias or fanboys. :roll:
 

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