XFX Radeons to be Available January 5th

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Ares202

Senior member
Jun 3, 2007
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0
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Originally posted by: chizow
Ouch, no overclocked offering. Guess XFX found out what we already knew, AMD parts just aren't very good at overclocking.
I dont know what you classify as a good overclock but with enough voltage ive seen the rv770 get to 900mhz with volt modding, without id say 820-830mhz was maximum which is 10% kind-of an average for graphics cards

A statement like "ATI cards dont overclock well" is simply fanboyism, i can name cards that can overclock fantastically well from the ATI side for example i remember a friend overclocking his x1800xl a couple of years ago from 1100mhz memory all the way to 1610mhz which is like a 50% overclock, something ive never seen on any other graphics card

Originally posted by: taltamir
They ARE lower quality, that is why nvidia cards overclock better, nvidia gives wider tolerances, wide enough that 3 partners can offer lifetime warranty. If AMD wanted that they would reduce the speed of their cards so that they last long enough to justify such a warranty. Or it could be the XFX intends to manufacture their own PCBs, with higher quality components, and thus longer operational life.
The reason that Nvidia cards have better overclocked cards is that firstly, there is more competition sapphire and maybe HIS are the only manufacturers on the ATI side to experiment with things such as 3rd party coolers and overclocks while most of the nvidia side experiment with different cooling and overclocking

Secondly up until about 2 years ago ATI had a ban on manufacturers overclocking there cards out of the box and i think it is still very conservative about that sort of thing

which indicates btw, that is not the actual GPU that is failing
ATI designed the chip, not the motherboard that it was going to be soldered on to so therefore thats not ATI's fault as you have just said yourself, TBH i blame the failures on cutting corners with cost of manufacture

And by lower quality I mean cheaper transistors, power circuitry that can handle less voltage, cooling solutions, etc. Which is conjecture based on their lower overclockability.
All stuff that is changeable by the OEM and is completely separate than the GPU itself. The GPUs (nvidia's and AMDs) are both manufactured by TSMC if I am not mistaken. So that is why I am hoping XFX will start making higher quality ATI boards, with quality cooling, quality PCBs, quality power circuitry, etc. We could really start overclocking those 4xxx boards than :)
Maybe if you come back with proof of that then we can discuss it, until then thats just opinionated BS

 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: Ares202


Maybe if you come back with proof of that then we can discuss it, until then thats just opinionated BS
How is he supposed to prove an opinion? Because that's all it really is based on his own speculation. I think that it is just that ATI releases it's GPU's at near it's max clocks right from the start, which could be why they run hot, and do not have much headroom without voltmods or water. Could "possibly" be the transistor design. I mean, a 55nm RV770 is pushing it's limits with stock voltage at around 800 to 825MHz. Meanwhile, with almost twice the transistors and on one manufacturing process higher (65nm), G200 can sit at 700MHz quite comfortably with stock voltages. So, perhaps something can be said for design. It's all speculation though.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
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Keep it on topic, this isn't about POS nvidia and how much better they overclock. My 8800GTX runs hotter than any other video card own so there.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: solofly
Keep it on topic, this isn't about POS nvidia and how much better they overclock. My 8800GTX runs hotter than any other video card own so there.
Keep it on topic? Or your 8800GTX runs hot? Which is it?
See, we got to talking about why XFX isn't offering any overclocked models, and wondered why they only offer overclocked Nvidia based cards. Which led to speculation on why that is. So maybe it's on topic after all.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
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Who made you a mod here? What a joke...


Solofly, this is a mod call-out and it's against the rules of this forum. Please refrain from making such comments in the future.

Video Mod BFG10K.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
1,421
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What problem is you and rollo are the cause for every fight in every thread on this forum. I'm just tired (and Im sure I speak for most when I say this) of reading the same shit over and over without end. Because of people like you I'm so sick of nvidia and everything they stand for. There is nothing I hate more than a liar and a salesman.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
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Originally posted by: Ares202
Originally posted by: chizow
Ouch, no overclocked offering. Guess XFX found out what we already knew, AMD parts just aren't very good at overclocking.


A statement like "ATI cards dont overclock well" is simply fanboyism, i can name cards that can overclock fantastically well from the ATI side for example i remember a friend overclocking his x1800xl a couple of years ago from 1100mhz memory all the way to 1610mhz which is like a 50% overclock, something ive never seen on any other graphics card

Sorry, but you've got it wrong. If ATi cards could overclock so well, (and we are talking about the 4XXX series here, which is what is relevant) why dont the board partners release higher clocked parts? It is pure profit for them to flash the bios and add a "OC" sticker to the box. A 50mhz OC is not exactly great....

Ill tend to believe what I can actually see from the behavior of Diamond, Sapphire, Visiontek, etc, over what someone says thier friend's friend's next door neighbor got his card clocked to.

We are talking about things that do not void warranties here. Volt-modding does not fall in that category.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
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sorry, when i said transistor i meant capacitors. slip of the tongue. And I fully admitted that was my ESTIMATE as to why they over clock less.
But to be honest, it makes more SENSE to cut useless corners if it is not going to matter. Its like how monster cables are "higher quality", but generally speaking I wouldn't recommend buying one because you will get identical HDMI signal on a "lower quality" cable due to the digital nature of the transmission. The thing is, you can't overclock a monster cable, you can overclock a video card, so there is justification for some. I am saying basically that a "factory overclocked" nvidia card is as reliable as the ATI cards, they are both pushed to their limits and it will show in terms of thermals, overclockability, and life expectancy.

solofly: you say this isn't on topic, call nvidia POS, and than comment about how your nvidia card can't overclock (which is the same "off topic" remarks you are complaining about), so which is it? you want it on topic, or you want to compare overclocks?
 

Ares202

Senior member
Jun 3, 2007
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Originally posted by: keysplayr2003How is he supposed to prove an opinion? Because that's all it really is based on his own speculation
i dont think he was suggesting anything, he said that "They ARE lower quality" by saying this hes suggesting that he knows, therfore IMO he has to backup the statement

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003I think that it is just that ATI releases it's GPU's at near it's max clocks right from the start, which could be why they run hot, and do not have much headroom without voltmods or water.Could "possibly" be the transistor design. I mean, a 55nm RV770 is pushing it's limits with stock voltage at around 800 to 825MHz. Meanwhile, with almost twice the transistors and on one manufacturing process higher (65nm), G200 can sit at 700MHz quite comfortably with stock voltages. So, perhaps something can be said for design. It's all speculation though.
I may be wrong but Doesnt the rv770 have 900 million transistors and the G200 has 1.4b so its not double but i understand what you are saying id personally say its probably the architecture that it was designed greatly affects clock speed like when Intel was pushing 3.6ghz on there p4 chips @ 110nm and AMD could only manage 2.6ghz @ 90nm
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
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Sorry, but you've got it wrong. If ATi cards could overclock so well, (and we are talking about the 4XXX series here, which is what is relevant) why dont the board partners release higher clocked parts? It is pure profit for them to flash the bios and add a "OC" sticker to the box. A 50mhz OC is not exactly great....
Which is the crux of the matter, they would if they could.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: solofly
What problem is you and rollo are the cause for every fight in every thread on this forum. I'm just tired (and Im sure I speak for most when I say this) of reading the same shit over and over without end. Because of people like I'm so sick of nvidia and everything they stand for. There is nothing I hate more than a liar and a salesman.
no, you are only talking for yourself on this one. And keys is not a salesmen, nor did he ever lie.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
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My remark was to what mr nvidia salesman had to say right above my post...

I think that it is just that ATI releases it's GPU's at near it's max clocks right from the start, which could be why they run hot, and do not have much headroom without voltmods or water.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
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Originally posted by: Ares202
I dont know what you classify as a good overclock but with enough voltage ive seen the rv770 get to 900mhz with volt modding, without id say 820-830mhz was maximum which is 10% kind-of an average for graphics cards

A statement like "ATI cards dont overclock well" is simply fanboyism, i can name cards that can overclock fantastically well from the ATI side for example i remember a friend overclocking his x1800xl a couple of years ago from 1100mhz memory all the way to 1610mhz which is like a 50% overclock, something ive never seen on any other graphics card
I'd consider overclocks more than a 2.5% speedbump a "good" overclock. With enough voltage and exotic cooling you can hit 800+MHz with GT200s but that's neither here nor there. We're talking about why board vendors who offer parts from both vendors (Asus, MSI, Palit/Gainward, Zotac/Sapphire and now XFX) offer amazing overclocked parts for Nvidia but underwhelming offerings for AMD parts. And this is even with "improved" non-reference cooling.

This has nothing to do with fanboyism, its historical FACT. Feel free to compile a list of max factory overclocked parts for both Nvidia and ATI over the last 10 years and I'd be shocked if there was a single flagship from ATI that had a higher % overclock than Nvidia's flagship for any given GPU generation.

Secondly up until about 2 years ago ATI had a ban on manufacturers overclocking there cards out of the box and i think it is still very conservative about that sort of thing
Got any kind of link to substantiate this?

ATI designed the chip, not the motherboard that it was going to be soldered on to so therefore thats not ATI's fault as you have just said yourself, TBH i blame the failures on cutting corners with cost of manufacture
They designed an excessively hot GPU, which is par for the course for them.

Maybe if you come back with proof of that then we can discuss it, until then thats just opinionated BS
Rofl.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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I think Nvidia's current GPU's overclock well in general because when they designed the GPU, I'm sure they had a thermal and power goal in mind while attempting to hit a certain performance level. According to the rumors I read (if you want to believe FUD sites) Nvidia had to turn down the clocks a bit to keep their big chip within those power/heat limits and keep yields decent enough. I generally don't take what TheInq/Fudzilla say as much more then rumor, but it does stand to reason that this may have happened. So, maybe Nvidia had a 650MHz goal in mind for the GTX280? Maybe not, who knows. But it's quite possible that they weren't happy with the percentage of chips that ran at x power and y thermal limit that ran at 650MHz, but were happy with the 602MHz numbers and the performance was good enough... afterall they haven't had any real competition in ages, so who'd care about the minor clock decrease? So now you the consumer get this card home and see what it can do, you don't mind turning up the fan a bit for the sake of performance. You have a well ventilated case with 3 120mm fans. You can get a nice round 700MHz clock speed at what you consider acceptable noise/temps. That doesn't mean that Nvidia felt the heat/power was ok for the OEM builder.

On the other hand, if you read the AT article with the AMD engineers who worked on the RV770, according to them a decision was made to go for higher clocks to better compete. Maybe we lost a touch of head room there? Would it matter if AMD released the card at 700Mhz instead and they all still overclocked like they do now? Yields must have been good enough at 750MHz to build them that way.

I pushed my 4870 to 825MHz. But, I have a non-reference cooler. Looking at NewEgg the highest factory clocked 4870 comes in at 815MHz. The hieghest GTX280 comes in at 700Mhz. A 65MHz and 98MHz overclock. I guess that just doesn't jump out at me and say, "Nvidia and it's board partners make higher quality parts!"


Keys:
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: Ares202


Maybe if you come back with proof of that then we can discuss it, until then thats just opinionated BS
How is he supposed to prove an opinion? Because that's all it really is based on his own speculation. I think that it is just that ATI releases it's GPU's at near it's max clocks right from the start, which could be why they run hot, and do not have much headroom without voltmods or water. Could "possibly" be the transistor design. I mean, a 55nm RV770 is pushing it's limits with stock voltage at around 800 to 825MHz. Meanwhile, with almost twice the transistors and on one manufacturing process higher (65nm), G200 can sit at 700MHz quite comfortably with stock voltages. So, perhaps something can be said for design. It's all speculation though.
If I said something like, "Nvidia cards ARE lower quality then AMD cards." you'd probably ask for some sort of supporting evidence right? Saying they 'ARE' doesn't sound like an opinion so much as he feels it's fact.
 

Ares202

Senior member
Jun 3, 2007
331
0
71
Originally posted by: chizow
This has nothing to do with fanboyism, its historical FACT. Feel free to compile a list of max factory overclocked parts for both Nvidia and ATI over the last 10 years and I'd be shocked if there was a single flagship from ATI that had a higher % overclock than Nvidia's flagship for any given GPU generation.
i dont think factory overclock is a fair judge, because as i said before Nvidia has more competition and is less conservative to board manufacturers, if you could compile some good overclocks from the 7xxx/8xxx/gtxxx on water then radeon 1xxx/2xxx/3xxx/4xxx series data then that would be a fair judge i think you would find that ATI cards overclock well, but the fans are always set to low rpms as standard so that they get hot

Got any kind of link to substantiate this?
a little known fact that people seem to have forgotten my friend (date march 13th 2006)
ATI allows overclocked graphics cards to be sold
http://www.techspot.com/news/2...-chips-to-be-sold.html


They designed an excessively hot GPU, which is par for the course for them.
no the cooling that Microsoft put on it was abysmal, just a aluminium heatsink no fan, compare the PS3 cooling to the version 1 xbox 360 youll understand the problem

 

Cookie Monster

Diamond Member
May 7, 2005
5,161
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Good news for consumers and ATi.

However bad news for the original ATi partners :p Hopefully this will make the other board partners to work harder and offer better support/services/warranties for their products, something thats been lacking for a very long time.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
1,421
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Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
However bad news for the original ATi partners :p Hopefully this will make the other board partners to work harder and offer better support/services/warranties for their products, something thats been lacking for a very long time.
That's what I'm hoping for... (as for me the only brand Im gonna stick to is Visiontek and XFX from now on- if Visiontek offered 1gb version of 4870, I would have purchased it instead of Sapphire)
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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Originally posted by: solofly
Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
However bad news for the original ATi partners :p Hopefully this will make the other board partners to work harder and offer better support/services/warranties for their products, something thats been lacking for a very long time.
That's what I'm hoping for...
Agreed, and XFX getting into the game might help push that along even more as they (regardless of what some bitter fanboys might say) were on of Nvidia's top partners. They have a background of good customer support and building nicely overclocked cards.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
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Originally posted by: Ares202
i dont think factory overclock is a fair judge, because as i said before Nvidia has more competition and is less conservative to board manufacturers, if you could compile some good overclocks from the 7xxx/8xxx/gtxxx on water then radeon 1xxx/2xxx/3xxx/4xxx series data then that would be a fair judge i think you would find that ATI cards overclock well, but the fans are always set to low rpms as standard so that they get hot

a little known fact that people seem to have forgotten my friend (date march 13th 2006)
ATI allows overclocked graphics cards to be sold
http://www.techspot.com/news/2...-chips-to-be-sold.html
OK so lets look at the parts in the last 2 years, since you've already acknowledge factory overclocks aren't in the same league, lets pair up generational competitors:

X1800 to 7800 = winner Nvidia
X1900/1950 to 7900/7950 = winner Nvidia
2900XT to G80 GTS/GTX = winner Nvidia
3870 to G92 GT/GTS/GTX = winner Nvidia
4870 to GT200 260/280 = winner Nvidia

Out-of-the-box, stock cooling, stock voltage I don't think there's any question the corresponding Nvidia parts were significantly better overclockers than the ATI parts in both % overclock and % performance gained. The only part in question is perhaps the G80 GTX which wasn't a particularly good overclocker until the A3 revision that also spawned the Ultra. Pulling the volt-mod and water-cool card doesn't do any good as Nvidia cards can do the same and again, end up with higher overclocks.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: solofly
What problem is you and rollo are the cause for every fight in every thread on this forum. I'm just tired (and Im sure I speak for most when I say this) of reading the same shit over and over without end. Because of people like I'm so sick of nvidia and everything they stand for. There is nothing I hate more than a liar and a salesman.
How do you feel about people who fling out accusations on a whim? Unprovoked, and suddenly erupt with anger far greater than what was ever needed for the situation that exists only in their own minds? People hate because they choose to hate. It's a conscious choice.

Now, so that we can get back on with this thread so people can express their opinions, like I and so many others were happily doing, what do you say you cut out all this drama. Please.

And I would edit out that mod comment before another mod sees it. You'd most likely get a maximum of a week for that, or definitely a warning at bare minimum. Everything else you say is fine, just leave the mods out of it.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
1,421
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Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: solofly
What problem is you and rollo are the cause for every fight in every thread on this forum. I'm just tired (and Im sure I speak for most when I say this) of reading the same shit over and over without end. Because of people like I'm so sick of nvidia and everything they stand for. There is nothing I hate more than a liar and a salesman.
How do you feel about people who fling out accusations on a whim? Unprovoked, and suddenly erupt with anger far greater than what was ever needed for the situation that exists only in their own minds? People hate because they choose to hate. It's a conscious choice.

Now, so that we can get back on with this thread so people can express their opinions, like I and so many others were happily doing, what do you say you cut out all this drama. Please.

And I would edit out that mod comment before another mod sees it. You'd most likely get a maximum of a week for that, or definitely a warning at bare minimum. Everything else you say is fine, just leave the mods out of it.
I got a better idea. You can BAN me for good.
 

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