XBox or PS2?? Which should I get???

[potatosalad]

You are very ignorant.

The XBox uses the standard nForce archiecture that is going to be used in many PC's in the next few months.

Any incompatibilities between current PC hardware and XBox hardware is due to proprietary firmware. Firmware is easily updated, or drivers can easily be written to recognize and work with the firmware.

The USB ports use a different plastic head, BIG DEAL. It is still USB inside! How long do you think it will be before lik-sang.com starts selling USB-to-MSUSB adapters?

It is very obvious that you lack an essential understanding of PC hardware. The first few signs of complexity scare you into a stupor.

 

[potatosalad]

<< every other console on the market both past and present has relied on PC archetecture.... >>



This statement alone is proof of how absolutely ignorant you are.

 

[bozack]

Potatosalad sorry to rain on your fanboy parade but the FACT that all consoles have relied on a modified form of previous pc archetecture is just that.... a fact...I fail to see how the xbox is different from any other console sold on the market either past or present short of the fact it is sold by Microsoft....maybe you have a problem with them which explains your blantant rantings??.


I really fail to see what you point actually is?? is it really that imporant that MS used "standard" (using this term loosley as they are really not standard PC components) components to build the XBOX.....and if so why?

And whoopete doo they might port the games to the PC in the near future?? like that has never happened before (bleem, any of the older NES/Genesis emulators).

I really dont see why some (like you) seem to get wood from pointing out that the Xbox is similar to a PC?? does it make you seem smarter??

Why don't you go read anand's review of the Xbox hardware in relation to the PS2 and learn something for a change instead of being such a blatant fanboy.....really what does it matter the road a company takes to accomplish a goal??

 

[TripleJ]

Well said Bozack. Haha, suffer in your jocks potatosalad!

I don't care what is inside a console, as long as it brings the enjoyment that consoles only can I really don't give a rats arse. The Xbox has the potential to run the best games, but the only question is will good games come to the Xbox? I think so. That's why I lean towards the Xbox. Comprende?

 

[Bluga]

PS2

x-box is kid's computer.

 

[potatosalad]

<< the FACT that all consoles have relied on a modified form of previous pc archetecture is just that.... a fact... >>



Give me a technical analysis of a single past console to show me in what way it is similar to a PC.

You are so full of bullsh!t, it's sad.

the Xbox is similar to a PC??

The XBox is not similar to a PC.

The XBox is a PC.

THE XBOX IS AN IBM COMPATIBLE PERSONAL COMPUTER IN A BLACK DESKTOP CASE.

Why are you in denial about this?

 

[Sugadaddy]

Xbox


PS2 is inferior hardware for kids.




edit--- And I know someone is going to respond: "But games make the console, not the hardware." Guess what, most of the A+++ titles people keep regurgitating are coming to Xbox:

Silent Hill 2 (improved version)
Metal Gear Solid X (improved version of MGS2)
Grand Theft Auto 3
Tony Hawk 3

The only ones you won't see are GT3 and FFX. And then people will respond: "But I'm playing those A+++ games right now...". Good, I'm playing DOA3, Halo, PGR, Amped right now, and I'll be playing improved (graphically and the story) versions of your games later.

 

[bozack]

Well they are allready talking about shenmue II and possibly a new version of Phantasy Star.....that along with the fact that DOA 3 is only for the Xbox is what sold me (well Halo and soul caliber too)....

also just saw that you can allready play online using Gamespy arcade, knew about the linux disc for your PC but didn't want to bother with that.

I have seen the roadmap for the xbox and titles, and while I cannot remember them all I did notice alot of really good games slated for next year.

Which leads me to believe the Xbox will do rather well...despite all of the fanboy rantings and ravings

 

[Bluga]

its amazing to see a few (1-3) x-box fan boys jumping from thread to thread trying to protect their little black computer

 

[potatosalad]

<< Give me a technical analysis of a single past console to show me in what way it is similar to a PC.

You are so full of bullsh!t, it's sad. >>

 

[bozack]

Potatosalad

why would you need a technical analysis of other gaming consoles when it really comes down to basic comprehension....

All gaming consoles rely on a CPU, Some form of Video renderer, and a type of a Motherboard combined with a limited operating system (dreamcast wince is a perfect example).....whether it be a modded P3 733, Power PC chip or anything else it is still a CPU

Like I said before, if you can post here...which you obviously can do in a rather limited sense...do yourself a favor and read Anands Article on the Xbox...learn something for a change, and then come back any maybe, just maybe you will have something intelligent to say.

I am dumbfounded by the fact that you cannot make the comparison with other consoles and PC hardware...

And once again.....no the xbox is not a "standard" PC....you cannot go to www.pricewatch.com and order the parts to build an xbox, the parts are proprietary...you cannot buy the processor in the xbox as it is a hybrid p3 with half the l2.

as of yet you cannot duplicate the image on the hard drive, and I believe you cannot buy a dvd rom that reads in the same manner...outside in.

I agree with you that the xbox is comprised of modified proprietary PC components....but then again what console isnt made of modified computer components??? whether they be IBM or some other?

You really make no sense

 

[bozack]

Bluga if I wanted a year old system at full price combined with DVDs that constantly get scratched when the unit is sideways, overheating and lockup problems I would have just built a K6-2 based machine and put it upside down for a little less than the cost of a ps2......

Not trying to put the ps2 down as I think it has a great library of games...

Just trying to combat your fanboyism with mine

 

[Sugadaddy]

<< its amazing to see a few (1-3) x-box fan boys jumping from thread to thread trying to protect their little black computer >>




What's funny is you're always there with the one-liners. You should try backing up your posts a little, it might help your credibility...

 

[bozack]

Potato just for my amusement her is your analysis:

"the PS2 is driven by what Sony likes to call their Emotion Engine. The Emotion Engine (EE) is a 128-bit MIPS processor that operates at 300MHz. "

There is your CPU

"The task of rendering is left to the Graphics Synthesizer (GS) which is a massively parallel graphics core running at 150MHz"

There is your video renderer

And the components are incorporated onto a "motherboard"

this was taken from anands xbox review.....like I said read and learn, reading is good

 

[LiQiCE]

Firmware is not as easily upgraded as potatosalad would lead you to believe. Yes if the firmware is actually released by the manufacturer, running a firmware update is easy. However, making your own firmware to compensate for differences in X-Box hardware versus PC hardware is way more difficult (and yes some of the differences are in hardware, my biggest example being the method the DVD-ROM uses to read the disc, that is a hardware feature that is implemented on a chip). Emulating the X-Box obviously is not as easy as you made it sound originally potatosalad. It isn't simply a matter of running the games under Windows. It is much more complicated than that. Thats the only point I would like to make. Alot of people seem to think the X-Box will be emulated in a matter of months, while I argue that it will take years to get an emulator that can actually play X-Box games. Additionally, all kernels are not created equally. Just because the X-Box OS is based off of the Windows 2000 or NT kernel does *not* in fact mean that the kernels are compatible or could easily be compatible. The kernel is simply the very very basic operations of the OS. And being based off of a kernel could very well mean that the codebase started out from the same source. There are hundreds of UNIX variants out there, many of which are based on the same original kernel, AT&T's Unix System V. That doesn't mean that all of the kernel versions are compatible or even that they could easily be compatible. So simply stating that the kernels are both NT based does not suddenly mean they are interchangable and code that will run on one would run on the other, or would easily run on the other with slight modifications.

Your statement that the X-Box is an IBM Personal Computer is also not true. It simply is not true because the X-Box is not a Personal computer. It cannot run any applications other than games. A personal computer by definition can do things like word processing. Hardware wise, it is architecturally similar to a PC, and probably more similar to a PC than any other console around, and while its true that the X-Box will probably be hacked like crazy just like the Dreamcast I do not believe it will be so easy to emulate it just because it shares hardware with a PC. If you consider the Dreamcast to be an original design, simply because the motherboard was specifically designed to fit inside the Dreamcast case, and the OS is custom fit to run Dreamcast games then the X-Box is an original design as well. The Dreamcast uses an off the shelf CPU, an off the shelf Yamaha CD-ROM with proprietary firmware, an off the shelf Yamaha sound processor, an off the shelf Video Card ... The X-Box uses all of the same. The only possible difference is that the X-Box uses pre-determined standards to connect all of the components many of which are built upon designs which are superior to anything else out there (HyperTransport is one, Nvidia's cross-banked memory architecture is another).

As for your statement about CloneCD being able to read X-Box DVDs, good luck. If the TOC is on the other side of the disc, and the DVD-ROM is looking for the TOC in the inside of the disc, it won't ever find anything. If the DVD-ROM itself can't find the data, how do you expect a piece of software to be able to find it?

 

[IshmaelLeaver]

For once, I agree with Sugadaddy (although he does overrate XBox's launch titles). The XBox has a lot of good titles coming to it in the future, many in common with PS2. I probably will eventually buy one when the game library gets better. That is, unless, the titles come to GCN also.

The XBox and GCN both have a lot going for them. GCN has it's great 1st party titles, low price, portability, and now expanded 3rd party support. XBox has the most powerful system, lots of extra features, and a lot of good titles coming to it in the future.

PS2 has its current library, and uh, that's about it. It's really too bad there are so many Sony fanboys out there, I'd really like Sony to get schooled by the new systems.

The XBox will be hacked. There's just too many people that want to crack it for it not to happen.

 

[potatosalad]

<< As for your statement about CloneCD being able to read X-Box DVDs, good luck. If the TOC is on the other side of the disc, and the DVD-ROM is looking for the TOC in the inside of the disc, it won't ever find anything. If the DVD-ROM itself can't find the data, how do you expect a piece of software to be able to find it? >>



You don't have a single clue, do you?

CloneCD doesn't care about the TOC. It doesn't look for the TOC. It makes a raw bit-per-bit copy of whatever is written on the disc. So putting the TOC in weird places will do nothing to prevent a CloneCD copy.

As for the comparison of PS2 to a computer, let me know where on pricewatch I can get an Emotion Engine. I can tell you where on pricewatch I can get a Celeron 733 (which is what the XBox has).

Let me know where on pricewatch I can get a PS2 mobo. I can tell you where on pricewatch I can preorder an nForce mobo (which is what the XBox has).

This is the same with all XBox peripherals. Bill Gates bought a bunch of things from pricewatch, fscked with their firmwares a little bit, had his people squash the USB portheads so they look a little different, and boom, you have XBox.

What a joke.

 

[potatosalad]

<< Your statement that the X-Box is an IBM Personal Computer is also not true. It simply is not true because the X-Box is not a Personal computer. It cannot run any applications other than games. >>



Wanna bet?

If I can make an XBox run a wordprocessor, does it become an IBM compatible Personal Computer?

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< the X-Box is not a Personal computer. It cannot run any applications other than games. >>


What do you mean by this? I see no reason why the X-Box couldn't be made to run like a regular PC with an OS and application software like MS Office. It has a CPU, memory, GPU, hard disk storage, USB connection for a keyboard, output to a monitor. I mean, what is stopping an X-Box from acting like a PC? It may not run the same compiled code as PC nor would it make any financial sense to make an X-Box run this way via emulation, but I see no reason why it isn't technically feasible.

The Dreamcast is less of a PC than the X-Box, but it runs Sega's own web browser (an application, not a game) and even a variant of Linux.

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< PS2 has its current library, and uh, that's about it. It's really too bad there are so many Sony fanboys out there, I'd really like Sony to get schooled by the new systems. >>


I agree, though Sony has one staggering advantage this season: it's basically the ONLY console available. Huh? Well, the Dreamcast is basically cleared out and it's very hard to find X-Boxs and Gamecubes in stores....but there are always STACKS of PS2s.

This is Sony's last hurrah, though. Class is starting shortly and they will soon be receiving their lesson.

 

[Sugadaddy]

<< You don't have a single clue, do you?

CloneCD doesn't care about the TOC. It doesn't look for the TOC. It makes a raw bit-per-bit copy of whatever is written on the disc. So putting the TOC in weird places will do nothing to prevent a CloneCD copy.

As for the comparison of PS2 to a computer, let me know where on pricewatch I can get an Emotion Engine. I can tell you where on pricewatch I can get a Celeron 733 (which is what the XBox has).

Let me know where on pricewatch I can get a PS2 mobo. I can tell you where on pricewatch I can preorder an nForce mobo (which is what the XBox has).

This is the same with all XBox peripherals. Bill Gates bought a bunch of things from pricewatch, fscked with their firmwares a little bit, had his people squash the USB portheads so they look a little different, and boom, you have XBox.

What a joke. >>




My gawd man, your IQ is even lower than a real potato salad...


#1. CloneCD can't read Xbox games, I just tried. Here's the info it gives:

Info on inserted Disc:
Number of sessions: 1
Size used on Disc: 16059 kBytes
Sectors: 6992
Time: 01:33:17 (Min:Sec:Fra)

Info on Session 1:
Size used in Session: 16059 kBytes
Number of Tracks: 1
Track 1: Audio, Size: 16059 kBytes

It sees it as 16MB, which is the DVD movie part of the disc that windows and any DVD player can see. (yes, even a PS2) It's a standard DVD movie that tells you to put the damn disk in your Xbox!! Here's a screenshot Even if it could read the data part, you won't be able to copy the TOC, so it won't play anywhere.


#2. This was confirmed by Anand in his recent review: the Xbox CPU is not a Celeron. Celeron doesn't have a 133mhz FSB, and has a 4-way set associative L2 cache, while P3 coppermine, just like the Xbox CPU, has a 133mhz FSB and an 8-way set associative L2 cache. The only thing it has in common with a Celeron is the L2 cache size is 128K compared to 256K on a regular P3. If you're naming CPUs by only looking at their L2 cache size, then I could say the Xbox CPU is actually a Duron. (yes, that's ridiculous, but so is everything you're saying)


#3. NForce? What the fsck are you saying? Nforce is for AMD CPUs, and the North Bridge has an integrated graphics core equal to a Geforce 2 MX, not an NV2A, which is even more complex than a Geforce 3 because of its second vertex shader. Show me where I can buy an Nvidia motherboard with integrated graphics core faster than a Geforce 3, that runs Intel CPUs, and I'll make you a damn PS2 mobo with my own hands.


#4. Do I even need to comment about your USB firmware-humping theory? (or whatever that last part meant...) I'll leave it at that, I think it speaks for itself...

 

[Sugadaddy]

bump


has the potato salad passed the expiry date?

 

[LiQiCE]

potatosalad,

Sorry, but I have a clue. 4 years of a Computer Science major, and 6 years working in the industry has taught me a thing or two about how CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs work. Here's a quick lesson for you since you seem to think I don't know what I'm talking about:

A CD-ROM or DVD-ROM have a TOC or Table of Contents. This information is similar to a hard drives FAT or File Allocation Table. Without the TOC or FAT on a disc, the computer has no clue how to pull data and where to pull it from. If a DVD-ROM disc normally stores its TOC or FAT on the inside of the disc (which it does), then when an X-Box game that stores its TOC on the outside of the disc is inserted, the DVD-ROM drive itself has no clue how to read it. You can tell it to RAW read sector 1,1 ... but if the DVD-ROM drive hasn't a clue where sector 1,1 is located then it can't find it! Again I re-assert that without special firmware a DVD-ROM drive would not be able to read an X-Box game. If this is not the case, prove it to me. Sugadaddy already proved that all you can read is a 16MB sector on the disc similar to the small session on the GD-ROM of a Dreamcast game.

mithrandir2001,

Yes, you're correct, the X-Box can probably be made to run applications, in fact I can almost guarentee it will be hacked in time. Just like the Dreamcast. My point is that the majority of you consider the Dreamcast a console and it can run Linux and web browsers but potatosalad is telling me that the X-Box is an IBM Personal Computer. By that definition, the Dreamcast is a Personal computer as well. I don't accept that a Dreamcast is a PC, and I don't think potatosalad does either ... The point is that the X-Box is not designed to run applications other than games. In its original form it cannot run Microsoft Office or anything else. Neither can the Dreamcast. By definition, the X-Box is a console. Sure it maybe possible to modify it to be a full fledged PC, but so can PS2 by using the Sony licenced Linux SDK for PS2 and so can Dreamcast by using hacks. So if we want to go with a broad definition, all 3 consoles can be considered Personal Computers. Who knows, GameCube might be next.

 

[bozack]

Funny stuff shugga

I was just going to comment on the silly remark he made about the CPU but you said it that much better

Just another reason why reading is good!!!, then you would have known the CPU is not a celeron but instead a Modified P3

 

[Sugadaddy]

LiQiCE, the 16MB part that CloneCD sees is the same for every Xbox game. That 16MB part is actually stored the same way a DVD movie stores its files, with a .VOB file in it. It's there to warn people, and will automatically play when you put it in a DVD player, or PS2 because it will see it as a DVD movie. The screen shot I took is from PowerDVD...


CloneCD can ONLY see that part, and thinks its nothing more then a very small DVD movie. So you're right, it can't read the TOC for the game part of the disc.