<< Plus with the PS2 you have access to billions of bargain good games made for the PS One. >>
If you want to play PS1 games, buy the Dreamcast. It plays PS1 games with an emulator better than even the "native" PS2 and it's much cheaper to boot!
<< Wow! ANOTHER CvC THREAD! :| >>
So? These are more civil than the religion threads. We have 4 major consoles on the market that are 2 years old or less. One is going for fire sale prices, and the other three are in a dead heat for dominance. It's exciting; we need these kinds of battles.
Dreamcast cannot emulate all PS1 games, only 3 (Gran Turismo 2, Tekken 3, and Metal Gear Solid), and you must own the BleemCast game specific version to emulate those games. Since Bleem went out of business, it will be difficult to get these discs. I love my Dreamcast, but the truth is it can't emulate PS1 games.
All of you people saying the X-Box will be easily emulated, I'm pretty sure Microsoft thought about emulation and probably put something in the software to make it difficult to emulate. I haven't tried putting the media into my PC yet, but does anyone know if it reads? I know for a fact that Microsoft's DVD-9's read data from the outside to the inside instead of the standard inside to outside reading. I don't know if this prevents reading the discs. If it doesn't read, it present a significant hurdle to emulating X-Box games. And I am 100% sure that many X-Box games will never be ported to the PC. Arcade style games like Dead or Alive 3 will never get ported because the PC Game market is not geared towards arcade games. Additionally, considering the lack of overhead that the X-Box has (small-footprint OS, no multi-tasking, etc) and the amount of overhead that Windows incurs, I would think that you would need a fairly powerful machine to emulate the X-Box. True, the X-Box uses x86 architecture but considering that emulation for a Playstation 1 is still not 100% perfect, nor does it run at 100% speed using emulators and the PSX processor is only 33Mhz ... Like the old SNES days when people made fake emulators that formatted your hard drive, I'll believe its the real deal when I see it with my own eyes.
BTW- Don't forget things like VMWare and Virtual PC which simply "emulate another x86 PC" ... Which is sortof like what emulating an X-Box would take. If something like this is done, then if you've ever tried VMWare or Virtual PC you'd know that the OS running underneath the VMWare or Virtual PC is extremely slow compared to a native PC. There are ways around emulating the entire X-Box but going brute force like this would result in needing a very fast PC to emulate a 733Mhz x86 processor properly.
All of you people saying the X-Box will be easily emulated, I'm pretty sure Microsoft thought about emulation and probably put something in the software to make it difficult to emulate. I haven't tried putting the media into my PC yet, but does anyone know if it reads? I know for a fact that Microsoft's DVD-9's read data from the outside to the inside instead of the standard inside to outside reading. I don't know if this prevents reading the discs. If it doesn't read, it present a significant hurdle to emulating X-Box games. And I am 100% sure that many X-Box games will never be ported to the PC. Arcade style games like Dead or Alive 3 will never get ported because the PC Game market is not geared towards arcade games. Additionally, considering the lack of overhead that the X-Box has (small-footprint OS, no multi-tasking, etc) and the amount of overhead that Windows incurs, I would think that you would need a fairly powerful machine to emulate the X-Box. True, the X-Box uses x86 architecture but considering that emulation for a Playstation 1 is still not 100% perfect, nor does it run at 100% speed using emulators and the PSX processor is only 33Mhz ... Like the old SNES days when people made fake emulators that formatted your hard drive, I'll believe its the real deal when I see it with my own eyes.
BTW- Don't forget things like VMWare and Virtual PC which simply "emulate another x86 PC" ... Which is sortof like what emulating an X-Box would take. If something like this is done, then if you've ever tried VMWare or Virtual PC you'd know that the OS running underneath the VMWare or Virtual PC is extremely slow compared to a native PC. There are ways around emulating the entire X-Box but going brute force like this would result in needing a very fast PC to emulate a 733Mhz x86 processor properly.
<< GameCube - the next generation of its 64-bit machine >>
whoa, the GC is 64-bit? that's news to me.
anyway, I like the suggestion of go PS2 now for the current games, sell it later and buy xbox later (if xbox is still alive) when it comes out with better games.
ps2 has the better games now, and has the old but good psx games.
and do NOT buy Xbox just because of Halo.
that's just plain dumb. no matter how good the game is, nobody plumps down $360 just for one game.
Get PS2...sure the XBOX may have better hardware, but what good is that if the software sucks monkey's nutz?? I suppose that it is more aesthetically pleasing than PS2 so you could set it up and look at it if you wanted to. And I am pretty sure that GT3 and GTA3 are licensed to Sony's console, so there is more of a chance that my computer will get up and leave the room than Microsoft acquiring the rights to those games, but then again it is obvious that Microsoft can do damn near anything just shy of launching nuclear weapons so who really knows.
PS2 is woth it just for those 2 games alone!!
PS2 is woth it just for those 2 games alone!!
THERE IS NO NEED TO EMULATE 90% OF THE XBOX.
You pass the x86 instructions directly onto the x86 chip on your PC.
You pass DirectSound calls directly to the DirectSound installation on Windows.
You pass IDE calls directly onto your DVD drive and hard drive, or hard drive image on your hard drive.
THERE IS NOTHING TO EMULATE EXCEPT THE GPU.
VMWare is not a valid analogy because with it, you are building an entire virtual machine inside your PC. Trying to emulate the XBox in this way would be way too slow, way too inefficient, and way too idiotic.
As for Microsoft knowing what the hell they are doing: If Microsoft had half a clue, they would not be shipping an IBM compatible Personal Computer in a black desktop case and trying to call it a console.
You pass the x86 instructions directly onto the x86 chip on your PC.
You pass DirectSound calls directly to the DirectSound installation on Windows.
You pass IDE calls directly onto your DVD drive and hard drive, or hard drive image on your hard drive.
THERE IS NOTHING TO EMULATE EXCEPT THE GPU.
VMWare is not a valid analogy because with it, you are building an entire virtual machine inside your PC. Trying to emulate the XBox in this way would be way too slow, way too inefficient, and way too idiotic.
As for Microsoft knowing what the hell they are doing: If Microsoft had half a clue, they would not be shipping an IBM compatible Personal Computer in a black desktop case and trying to call it a console.
GTA3 has already been confirmed for the X-Box so it will be coming out. Unfortunately no release date is set, so if you must have this game today, PS2 is the route to go. Everything really depends on what you want to do. If you want to play some great games right now, get a PS2 ... But PS2 doesn't have a huge library of great games, it has about 6 or 7 games which would be considered good, and the rest seem very mediocre or directed at a certain niche market that not everyone would enjoy. The X-Box could easily outmatch the PS2 in terms of good games if they are able to release a few "must own games" in the next few months. The likelihood of every game that the X-Box releases being a "killer app" is unlikely, but PS2 does not have such a huge library of good games like people seem to make it out to be (games that are actually for PS2, not counting PS1 games). If you want to play it safe, get a PS2 now and sell it and get an X-Box in a year if you still want an X-Box. That way you get the best of both worlds ... Or just be like me and buy both 
<< Personally I feel that if anyone is going to fold in the console wars it will be Nintendo as their sole source of revinue is gaming consoles.. >>
Dead wrong. Nintendo has the most popular system in the world (GBA), and last quarter they made $1 billion pretty much solely on that platform (N64 is now dead) compared to Sony's $400 million for all its markets. Nintendo actually has an advantage that it doesn't have to worry about other markets.
Sony's sole source of real profit in the electronics world are the two Playstations. Without those, Sony would be hurting bad.
For the PS2 fanboys who say, "it's all about the games", take a look at EGMs recently released list of the top 100 games of all time. Most of the games were from Nintendo systems. 8 of the top 10 were Nintendo. PS2 exclusively has what going for it? Not a whole lot, just a couple really cool games. Down the pipe, the PS2 doesn't have anything too spectacular coming, either. FFX, while purty, is just another unoriginal Square RPG. Being "all about the games" is not what Playstation is about. It's about "being about all the games" and of course, just by the sheer number of releases, a few will stand out.
All three systems have exclusives out or coming that make a purchase of the system justifyable. However, IMO, GCN and Xbox have a lot more going for them in the future than PS2 in terms of hardware capability and software exclusives.
Dead wrong. Nintendo has the most popular system in the world (GBA), and last quarter they made $1 billion pretty much solely on that platform (N64 is now dead) compared to Sony's $400 million for all its markets. Nintendo actually has an advantage that it doesn't have to worry about other markets.
Sony's sole source of real profit in the electronics world are the two Playstations. Without those, Sony would be hurting bad.
For the PS2 fanboys who say, "it's all about the games", take a look at EGMs recently released list of the top 100 games of all time. Most of the games were from Nintendo systems. 8 of the top 10 were Nintendo. PS2 exclusively has what going for it? Not a whole lot, just a couple really cool games. Down the pipe, the PS2 doesn't have anything too spectacular coming, either. FFX, while purty, is just another unoriginal Square RPG. Being "all about the games" is not what Playstation is about. It's about "being about all the games" and of course, just by the sheer number of releases, a few will stand out.
All three systems have exclusives out or coming that make a purchase of the system justifyable. However, IMO, GCN and Xbox have a lot more going for them in the future than PS2 in terms of hardware capability and software exclusives.
buying a nintendo systme is like buying a damn mac. for a computer....who does that? A fool! And the reason why they have some of most popular games is because they make a lot of kids games, and nintendo is extremely popular with young kids....so buy nintendo if you want to play barney eats some stuff!
By definition the X-Box is a console. Just because its using off the shelf parts doesn't mean its not a console. Think about it, Dreamcast isn't a console by that definition since the Dreamcast simply uses an off the shelf PC video card (PowerVR 2) ... How come there isn't a Dreamcast emulator that will let you run Dreamcast games on a Power VR 3 card? Using off the shelf parts doesn't simply mean that it isn't a console. The X-Box is made for one purpose, to play games, and thats what makes it a console.
Additionally, you make it sound like its very easy to just pass calls to the x86 processor. Do you realize that Windows itself protects the hardware so you can't directly access it? Generally speaking, all direct hardware access lies in Ring 0 which you cannot touch as a developer. Ring 2 is where all applications run. So being able to send direct x86 processor calls or direct GPU calls to hardware isn't quite that easy. It might be possible to do this "passing" under a 2nd OS specifically installed for X-Box, but then you lose DirectSound and Direct3D ... Once again, until it actually happens and I see it with my own eyes, I won't believe that its so easy to emulate X-Box. Is it possible? Of course, they said SNES would never be emulated back in the SNES days and its been emulated.
Also, I've done some more research and it seems that the DVD-9's that Microsoft is using cannot be read by a standard DVD-ROM because the games are written from the outside to the inside. So you have an additional hurdle to leap. The problem is similar to the GD-ROM format which was simply a CD-ROM with a special format (Rumors that speculated the GD-ROM format used a special laser are unfounded). I would venture to say that since GD-ROM discs can't be read in normal CD-ROMs still today that Microsoft's special DVD-ROM format will not be easily read in a standard DVD-ROM drive. Perhaps it is possible to remove the X-Box's DVD drive and use it to read the discs, but the firmware on the Thompson DVD-ROM drive is not compatible with regular PC and owning one of these drives means you own an X-Box, so why bother with emulation if you already own an X-Box?
Additionally, you make it sound like its very easy to just pass calls to the x86 processor. Do you realize that Windows itself protects the hardware so you can't directly access it? Generally speaking, all direct hardware access lies in Ring 0 which you cannot touch as a developer. Ring 2 is where all applications run. So being able to send direct x86 processor calls or direct GPU calls to hardware isn't quite that easy. It might be possible to do this "passing" under a 2nd OS specifically installed for X-Box, but then you lose DirectSound and Direct3D ... Once again, until it actually happens and I see it with my own eyes, I won't believe that its so easy to emulate X-Box. Is it possible? Of course, they said SNES would never be emulated back in the SNES days and its been emulated.
Also, I've done some more research and it seems that the DVD-9's that Microsoft is using cannot be read by a standard DVD-ROM because the games are written from the outside to the inside. So you have an additional hurdle to leap. The problem is similar to the GD-ROM format which was simply a CD-ROM with a special format (Rumors that speculated the GD-ROM format used a special laser are unfounded). I would venture to say that since GD-ROM discs can't be read in normal CD-ROMs still today that Microsoft's special DVD-ROM format will not be easily read in a standard DVD-ROM drive. Perhaps it is possible to remove the X-Box's DVD drive and use it to read the discs, but the firmware on the Thompson DVD-ROM drive is not compatible with regular PC and owning one of these drives means you own an X-Box, so why bother with emulation if you already own an X-Box?
If my statements are incorrect then prove me wrong there tuffnutz....point me to the article/source that lists the top games that you are speaking of...don't just make idle remarks ok there chief. Maybe you should pay attention to your own research.
rather than putting the XBox drive in your PC, perhaps you could put a regular DVD drive in the XBox?
BTW- In support of IshmaelLeaver I read the article he's referring to with the top 100 games of all time, and he's correct, Nintendo wins hands down. They've also had a few generations of games over Sony of course, but all in all Sony has a couple of great games here and there, and mostly they have a lot of junk or mediocre games.
<< Also, I've done some more research and it seems that the DVD-9's that Microsoft is using cannot be read by a standard DVD-ROM because the games are written from the outside to the inside. So you have an additional hurdle to leap. The problem is similar to the GD-ROM format which was simply a CD-ROM with a special format (Rumors that speculated the GD-ROM format used a special laser are unfounded). I would venture to say that since GD-ROM discs can't be read in normal CD-ROMs still today that Microsoft's special DVD-ROM format will not be easily read in a standard DVD-ROM drive. Perhaps it is possible to remove the X-Box's DVD drive and use it to read the discs, but the firmware on the Thompson DVD-ROM drive is not compatible with regular PC and owning one of these drives means you own an X-Box, so why bother with emulation if you already own an X-Box? >>
You can rip the contents of the DVD with a derivative of CloneCD, reindex, and then reburn to a DVDR or multiple CDRs.
Warez release groups will be pumping out PC compliant XBox isos once XBox emulation hits the scene.
As for ring0, ring2, etc, the XBox is running on the NT kernel! Whatever calls the games are making on the NT kernel of the XBox will work exactly the same on another OS based on the NT kernel.
What I said about direct x86 calls are a bit misleading. No game on the XBox makes direct hardware calls. They make calls on the NT kernel and the DirectX API, which then in turn make calls on the hardware. This is basically how all NT kernel-based Windows OS'es work. So this is basically a non-issue.
If my statements are incorrect then prove me wrong there tuffnutz....point me to the article/source that lists the top games that you are speaking of...don't just make idle remarks ok there chief. Maybe you should pay attention to your own research.
Maybe you should pay attention to your own posts. You're the one making idle remarks:
buying a nintendo systme is like buying a damn mac. for a computer....who does that? A fool! And the reason why they have some of most popular games is because they make a lot of kids games, and nintendo is extremely popular with young kids....so buy nintendo if you want to play barney eats some stuff!
I said EGMs Top 100 Games of All Time. That's my source, weaknutz.
man, you sound like you've got "short guy syndrome". chill.
Props to LiQiCE, thanks for backing me up.
Maybe you should pay attention to your own posts. You're the one making idle remarks:
buying a nintendo systme is like buying a damn mac. for a computer....who does that? A fool! And the reason why they have some of most popular games is because they make a lot of kids games, and nintendo is extremely popular with young kids....so buy nintendo if you want to play barney eats some stuff!
I said EGMs Top 100 Games of All Time. That's my source, weaknutz.
man, you sound like you've got "short guy syndrome". chill.
Props to LiQiCE, thanks for backing me up.
<< Think about it, Dreamcast isn't a console by that definition since the Dreamcast simply uses an off the shelf PC video card (PowerVR 2) ... >>
You cannot argue against the following:
The XBox is an IBM compatible Personal Computer in a black desktop case.
The Dreamcast is not an IBM compatible Personal Computer, an Apple compatible Personal Computer, or compatible with any Personal Computer available to the average consumer. It is an original design.
I rest my case.
can either of you read?? I am not stating that nintendo does not own the top position, my remarks simply state that many of nintendos customers are YOUNG CHILDREN, consequently many of their top games are aimed towards that market. Simply put, the reason why they have some of the best games is because so many young kids buy them...THEY ARE CHILDREN'S GAMES....you stunads got that??
Atari 2600.
No, let's splurge and go for the Atari 5200. I've still got mine in the original box (trackball too!). Gotta love the analog joysticks!!!
No, let's splurge and go for the Atari 5200. I've still got mine in the original box (trackball too!). Gotta love the analog joysticks!!!
<< Simply put, the reason why they have some of the best games is because so many young kids buy them...THEY ARE CHILDREN'S GAMES >>
This argument seems like it should be its own thread.
I move that we kill all Xbox vs. PS2 threads. They give me a headache.
More important topics include:
* What goes into making fluff?
* What ever happened to Tab?
* When will the Olsen twins turn 18?
* Why does my roommate dance like he's a crab?
GSOYF, nice try. Don't try to switch your words around, we know what you said.
The Dreamcast is not an IBM compatible Personal Computer, an Apple compatible Personal Computer, or compatible with any Personal Computer available to the average consumer. It is an original design.
C'mon, you know it's just a PocketPC with a GDROM.
Atari 5200 was nice. I still have mine. Had to replace the controllers several times, as they die frequently. Kids today brag about buttons on controllers, man that thing had 18!
The Dreamcast is not an IBM compatible Personal Computer, an Apple compatible Personal Computer, or compatible with any Personal Computer available to the average consumer. It is an original design.
C'mon, you know it's just a PocketPC with a GDROM.
Atari 5200 was nice. I still have mine. Had to replace the controllers several times, as they die frequently. Kids today brag about buttons on controllers, man that thing had 18!
<< C'mon, you know it's just a PocketPC with a GDROM. >>
Nope, that's false. The Dreamcast doesn't use standard Pocket PC hardware. It's a completely different form factor, it doesn't have a screen, it uses a completely different GPU and CPU and sound hardware. It's 128 bits as opposed to 16 and 32 bit Pocket PCs. There is basically no comparison.
It is true that Windows CE has been ported to it, but the unit itself, unlike Pocket PCs, does not run on Windows CE. Games using Windows CE (3 games throughout the life of the DC) included Windows CE runtime files on the GD-ROM itself.
In stark contrast to this, an XBox is a modern day IBM compatible Personal Computer with no additions or omissions. Once people figure out how, it will be able to run Linux out of the box. Or any other x86 compatible OS, for that matter.
Potatosalad is wrong..plain and simple.
The Xbox Hardware is not Standard ATX compliant...it is proprietary...so no you cannot take the components of an Xbox and put it in a PC case as it will not work....
As liqice said the DVD ROM reads differently than a PC and has a proprietary power connection, rendering it useless in a standard ATX case without Modification or replacement.
The Motherboard is totally proprietary as it has an AT style connector, no ps2 or (standard USB ports) but rather modified USB ports.
There is no Floppy controller and I believe there is only one IDE channel on it.
Not to mention the BIOS is more than likely proprietary and will only work with the Hardware currently in the Xbox....
On top of all that, the HD cannot be read by any current OS, therefore you would be unable to format, or even replace the drive with another (well you could physically replace it but you would be left with a nice paperweight afterwards).
The XBOX is like anyother console as it uses Standard components to acieve a goal, every other console on the market both past and present has relied on PC archetecture....
And in regards to Ishmael, Nintendo's sole source of revinue is Video games.....while there is a strong market there, it is not as strong as it was in previous years. Sony and Microsoft make money in other areas of business...sony has alot of high end audio/video as we all know...and I dont even have to mention MS.
If Sony and MS wanted to Put nintendo out, I think they could, but more than likely they wouldnt want to do this as it would be a bad business move
The Xbox Hardware is not Standard ATX compliant...it is proprietary...so no you cannot take the components of an Xbox and put it in a PC case as it will not work....
As liqice said the DVD ROM reads differently than a PC and has a proprietary power connection, rendering it useless in a standard ATX case without Modification or replacement.
The Motherboard is totally proprietary as it has an AT style connector, no ps2 or (standard USB ports) but rather modified USB ports.
There is no Floppy controller and I believe there is only one IDE channel on it.
Not to mention the BIOS is more than likely proprietary and will only work with the Hardware currently in the Xbox....
On top of all that, the HD cannot be read by any current OS, therefore you would be unable to format, or even replace the drive with another (well you could physically replace it but you would be left with a nice paperweight afterwards).
The XBOX is like anyother console as it uses Standard components to acieve a goal, every other console on the market both past and present has relied on PC archetecture....
And in regards to Ishmael, Nintendo's sole source of revinue is Video games.....while there is a strong market there, it is not as strong as it was in previous years. Sony and Microsoft make money in other areas of business...sony has alot of high end audio/video as we all know...and I dont even have to mention MS.
If Sony and MS wanted to Put nintendo out, I think they could, but more than likely they wouldnt want to do this as it would be a bad business move
Hey pal....I know what I said there to0. Don't get mad because you can't read. My statement remained constant from beginning to end, so how you like them apples?? Just because I am right do not be a poor loser...but hey, thanks for playin'!
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