Question x86 and ARM architectures comparison thread.

[DavidC1]

Both Intel's E core architecture AND 18A with BSPDN are likely to limit the clock speeds that CWF can accomplish IMO.

Skymont on Arrowlake runs at 4.6GHz, while Sierra Forest runs it at 3GHz at max Turbo.

Why would it be limited? Me thinks you have a bias clouding judgment.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Why wouldn't it last?

Because ARM wants to make real money (aka sell merchant Si).

Presumably ARM by now has figured out how much the license need to cost to keep it going

You don't "keep it going" as a publicly traded company.
It's like a freebie crack sample.
You get CSPs addicted to cheap IP, then you rugpull them. Pretty simple.

The problem is on AWS side to achieve the necessary scale/value to produce enough revenue to pay for the increasing development cost.

The hard, sweaty core R&D is outsourced to ARM.
With Neoverse CSS, everything but TO and post-Si costs is outsourced to ARM.

It's not like AMD isn't having the same problem given their need to offer so many SKUs.

They've been actually going in reverse, offering more and more specialized platforms and SKU options every gen.

 

[OneEng2]

Die area, but adds something bigger in the negative which is increased difficulty of validation and risk made worse by Meltdown/Spectre era.

It doesn't seem to bother AMD, Intel, and IBM. 5% die increase for 40% mt performance? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

144 core Gracemont-based Sierra Forest is already pretty competitive in Integer workloads such as Cloud, Virtualization, and Kernel Compile: https://www.servethehome.com/wp-con...rin-Linux-Kernel-Compile-Benchmark-scaled.jpg

288 cores Clearwater Forest with Skymont cores will equal Turin D even if you assume only 2x gains. We would have seen most of the 2x gains had they released 288 core Sierra Forest.

There are many cases where Sierra Forest is substantially behind, and will continue to remain behind even against Turin D, but will improve substantially due to:
-2x FP capability in addition to substantial uarch advancements
-Large, under the core cache, connected by Foveros.
-Additional optimizations specific to certain workloads that we do not know.

That's why @511 said it's already close in SpecCPU.

Yea, well seems like it's getting spanked by lower core count Zen processors in DC tasks. Maybe I am missing something here?

I would hate to see what an EPYC 9965 would look like in this chart.... but then that would likely skew the chart so the other comparisons were much harder to see.

Skymont on Arrowlake runs at 4.6GHz, while Sierra Forest runs it at 3GHz at max Turbo.

Why would it be limited? Me thinks you have a bias clouding judgment.

Yea, exactly. On a DC processor it runs at 3Ghz "max turbo" while AMD's Turin D Zen 5c cores boost to 3.7Ghz with 192 cores.

Of course, we are talking Intel 3 vs N3E so it isn't exactly apples to apples.

 

[511]

Yea, exactly. On a DC processor it runs at 3Ghz "max turbo" while AMD's Turin D Zen 5c cores boost to 3.7Ghz with 192 cores.

3.7 GHz is max boost and at 500W TDP not all core boost vs 144C 3 GHz @ 250W TDP

 

[adroc_thurston]

3.7 GHz is max boost and at 500W TDP not all core boost

It is an all-core boost (same as Bergamo. Oh and it's far off 500W outside of heavy FP crunch).
They're CSP parts, they need 100% consistent, fully stable boosting behavior 100% of the time.

 

[mikegg]

Software based power readings.

Exactly what I thought. Can't rely on software power readings since they can be measuring different things.

Notebookcheck's 3.6x M4 efficiency over Zen5 is likely far more accurate than David Huang's measurements. Measure it from the wall. It's by far the better way to evaluate real world efficiency.

 

[adroc_thurston]

It's by far the better way to evaluate real world efficiency.

That's completely useless unless iso chassis.
You're comparing two different laptops with different panels, SSDs, networking, PDN and SOCs.

 

[mikegg]

That's completely useless unless iso chassis.
You're comparing two different laptops with different panels, SSDs, networking, PDN and SOCs.

What? That's nuts. Do you have any clue what you're talking about? That's why you measure idle power first. Load power minus idle power. That's how Anandtech used to do it. That's how Notebookcheck does it. That's how any competent reviewer would do it.

Using software core measurements is completely useless since software core readings differ between designs and what it is mesuring.

Clearly the M4 laptop experience is more than the 30% ST power efficient claimed over Zen5. The reality is closer to 3.6x when they're running at stock performance.

 

[johnsonwax]

Because ARM wants to make real money (aka sell merchant Si).

You don't "keep it going" as a publicly traded company.
It's like a freebie crack sample.
You get CSPs addicted to cheap IP, then you rugpull them. Pretty simple.

Well, they're 35 years in now without the pull.

The hard, sweaty core R&D is outsourced to ARM.
With Neoverse CSS, everything but TO and post-Si costs is outsourced to ARM.

No sh*t. And they're paying ARM a license, and ARM distributes that design cost across all of their licenses.

They've been actually going in reverse, offering more and more specialized platforms and SKU options every gen.

Sure, they've been growing at Intel's expense. Look at Intel once they stopped growing. Are there more specialized platforms and SKU options across x86 every gen? That'll be an interesting thing to look at in 2-3 years. Not fair now while Intel is in turmoil, but x86 units are not growing meaningfully. I think x86 server units peaked in 2022 and x86 desktop in 2012.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Clearly the M4 laptop experience is more than the 30% ST power efficient claimed over Zen5. The reality is closer to 3.6x when they're running at stock performance.

wait, 1t power? ah who cares, this is going outta the window the next few generations.

Well, they're 35 years in now without the pull.

?

And they're paying ARM a license, and ARM distributes that design cost across all of their licenses.

They pay ARM pennies, and pocket all the resulting margin that would go towards merchant Si.
Which is not something that's gonna last.

Are there more specialized platforms and SKU options across x86 every gen?

yeah?

but x86 units are not growing meaningfully

Server CPU units are just not growing at all during the GPU spending crunch.

 

[mikegg]

You don't know for sure,

Exactly. The most efficient Windows laptop in the world is an M4 Mac running Parallels and Windows on ARM.

So we shouldn't pin M4's efficiency advantage on just because it makes sense for macOS to be more optimized for its own Silicon.

If we're going by this, we can also say tests where Apple Silicon loses is mostly likely due to much longer x86 optimization. We can only go by the results. Apple doesn't sell Apple Silicon chips by themselves. AMD and Intel don't have their own OS.

Besides, we have load tests where scheduling matter little to none. In those tests, Apple Silicon still wins by a lot.

 

[mikegg]

wait, 1t power? ah who cares, this is going outta the window the next few generations.

Yes 1t. What? 1t matters a lot.

What are we doing here?

 

[511]

It is an all-core boost (same as Bergamo. Oh and it's far off 500W outside of heavy FP crunch).
They're CSP parts, they need 100% consistent, fully stable boosting behavior 100% of the time.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/server/epyc/9005-series/amd-epyc-9965.html

No?

 

[poke01]

Yes 1t. What? 1t matters a lot.

What are we doing here?

I think adroc means 1t power consumption will go out the window, not that 1t is not important.

 

[mikegg]

I think adroc means 1t power consumption will go out the window, not that 1t is not important.

That hasn't happened. Even if it does, some architectures will still be more efficient than others.

 

[adroc_thurston]

That hasn't happened

Already did. Will get worse once aa64 club ships 5Ghz cores.

 

[511]

Already did. Will get worse once aa64 club ships 5Ghz cores.

that is due next year anyway