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Question x570 boards for zen 1

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
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Currently i'm OC'ing my Ryzen 7 1700 and im really limited by my motherboard, i've seen some x570 boards taht run with zen 1, is there a way to find out wether the board supports zen 1? because the support is basically unofficial and only possible becuase the motherboards had some memory left over, im especially thinking about getting the x570 Aorus master, so if anyone knows about the unofficial zen 1 support on that one it'd be great.
 

Timur Born

Member
Feb 14, 2016
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My MSI X570 Creation supports Zen 1, both before and after the Zen 3 update. But it's expensive and nearly impossible to get in Europe, no idea about the US.
 

Rigg

Senior member
May 6, 2020
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Why on earth would you spend $370 on a motherboard to overclock a 4 year old obsolete CPU? First off, you don't need anywhere near that much motherboard to max out an OC on that CPU. Second off, maxing out an overclock on that CPU is almost certainly stupid because you usually have to dump a crap load of extra voltage into to get above 3.9 Ghz for an almost meaningless performance gain. You are just wasting money on cooling and stressing components for no good reason. The first gen CPU's nearly always hit a voltage/freq wall around 3.8-3.9 ghz and rarely even clock above 4 ghz at sane voltages. Trust me I've oc'ed well over a dozen of them.


To answer the question......The support page of basically any motherboard will have a CPU support sheet with the corresponding required BIOS.
 

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
15
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6
Why on earth would you spend $370 on a motherboard to overclock a 4 year old obsolete CPU? First off, you don't need anywhere near that much motherboard to max out an OC on that CPU. Second off, maxing out an overclock on that CPU is almost certainly stupid because you usually have to dump a crap load of extra voltage into to get above 3.9 Ghz for an almost meaningless performance gain. You are just wasting money on cooling and stressing components for no good reason. The first gen CPU's nearly always hit a voltage/freq wall around 3.8-3.9 ghz and rarely even clock above 4 ghz at sane voltages. Trust me I've oc'ed well over a dozen of them.


To answer the question......The support page of basically any motherboard will have a CPU support sheet with the corresponding required BIOS.
its 300€, i plan on OC'ing a zen 2 or 3 later if i get one aswell and what do you mean you have to dump a lot of extra voltage for above 3.9, it does 3.8 at stock voltage, they also dont really hit a wall all that often
Also i plan on doing memory ocs, which is hardly possible with my current board, i know zen 1 isnt the architecture to do this, because the if doesnt play well with 3733mt/s+, but at that points timings are almost more important

also: zen 1 is supported unofficially, its just supported on some early revisions becuase they had the extra memory left over, but not offcially, it just sometimes works
 

Rigg

Senior member
May 6, 2020
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its 300€, i plan on OC'ing a zen 2 or 3 later if i get one aswell and what do you mean you have to dump a lot of extra voltage for above 3.9, it does 3.8 at stock voltage, they also dont really hit a wall all that often
Also i plan on doing memory ocs, which is hardly possible with my current board, i know zen 1 isnt the architecture to do this, because the if doesnt play well with 3733mt/s+, but at that points timings are almost more important

also: zen 1 is supported unofficially, its just supported on some early revisions becuase they had the extra memory left over, but not offcially, it just sometimes works
Zen Cpu's that will run stable above 4 ghz @ 1.45v are pretty rare. Especially lower bin models like the 1700. Every one I've ever overclocked would pretty easily get to 3.8 - 3.9 at or below 1.35 vcore (load) then would need another 100 mv to get another 100 mhz and run stable in proper stress tests. 1 out 15 (ish) zen 1 CPU's i've owned hit 4 ghz at 1.35v and could pass extensive stress testing. Clock the thing as high as it will go @ 1.35 and call it a day. You are just running up against the efficiency curve above that voltage for very little performance benefit. Assuming this is for daily use anyway and not just recreational.

I once managed to get a 1600 to 3600 Mt/s 16 16 16 16 36 with crap sub timings on an ITX board. Good luck above 3200 on a 4 slot ATX board with a zen 1 memory controller.

You could buy a 3600 and a rock solid x570 board for what an Aorus Master costs here in the US. I owned one briefly and it is a really well built/featured motherboard. I wouldn't buy one for anything less than 5900/5950x at this point in time. Even then the power delivery is overkill for anything but LN2.
 
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HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
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Zen Cpu's that will run stable above 4 ghz @ 1.45v are pretty rare. Especially lower bin models like the 1700. Every one I've ever overclocked would pretty easily get to 3.8 - 3.9 at or below 1.35 vcore (load) then would need another 100 mv to get another 100 mhz and run stable in proper stress tests. 1 out 15 (ish) zen 1 CPU's i've owned hit 4 ghz at 1.35v and could pass extensive stress testing. Clock the thing as high as it will go @ 1.35 and call it a day. You are just running up against the efficiency curve above that voltage for very little performance benefit. Assuming this is for daily use anyway and not just recreational.

I once managed to get a 1600 to 3600 Mt/s 16 16 16 16 36 with crap sub timings on an ITX board. Good luck above 3200 on a 4 slot ATX board with a zen 1 memory controller.

You could buy a 3600 and a rock solid x570 board for what an Aorus Master costs here in the US. I owned one briefly and it is a really well built/featured motherboard. I wouldn't buy one for anything less than 5900/5950x at this point in time. Even then the power delivery is overkill for anything but LN2.
That last part is propably true, but i disagree with the things you said before, might be, that it's just a sample size thing, but i've got a friend with the same config as me, crappy b450 board, but he got himself some rgb ram, becuase he liked how it looked, it was some crosair kit with 3600 16-18-18-38 which he got to 16-16-16-36 easily, while repairing a pc for someone else i also had to check some 3600 sticks (dont remember timings), because the pc was having ram related boot issues, which happaned to turn out to be a damaged dimm slot, and they worked fine with my config. From what i´ve heard of from others without having experienced first hand, that almost all go to 3600, with timings very much dependant on the kit that they have and that a large ammount also go to 3733. Like i said, propably just luck within the sample size.

I think i'll take your word tho, while i've built pc's for a long time, im pretty new to overlcocking, and i'll just get a better cpu first.
 

Rigg

Senior member
May 6, 2020
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That last part is propably true, but i disagree with the things you said before, might be, that it's just a sample size thing, but i've got a friend with the same config as me, crappy b450 board, but he got himself some rgb ram, becuase he liked how it looked, it was some crosair kit with 3600 16-18-18-38 which he got to 16-16-16-36 easily, while repairing a pc for someone else i also had to check some 3600 sticks (dont remember timings), because the pc was having ram related boot issues, which happaned to turn out to be a damaged dimm slot, and they worked fine with my config. From what i´ve heard of from others without having experienced first hand, that almost all go to 3600, with timings very much dependant on the kit that they have and that a large ammount also go to 3733. Like i said, propably just luck within the sample size.

I think i'll take your word tho, while i've built pc's for a long time, im pretty new to overlcocking, and i'll just get a better cpu first.
What kind of stability testing did you and your friend do? Posting and booting into the OS is one thing but passing a suite of memory tests is going to be a lot harder at those speeds/timings on a Zen 1 CPU. I personally don't consider a memory overclock stable unless it passes memtest86, A long term DRAM calculator stress test, and a long term Large FFT p95 test.

Later production silicon and newer BIOS versions probably help getting better memory speeds/timings so I guess it's possible things have improved in the 2 years since I've played with these chips. Not to mention silicon lottery and mobo memory topology/trace layout are pretty major variables. I still think getting anything 24/7 stable above 3200 with good timings is atypical on these CPU's. Early on many people were struggling to even reach 3200.

I'm not sure if you are still disputing my CPU clock/voltage observations but FYI they are completely in line with Silicon Lottery's historical binning statistics.

 

kschendel

Member
Aug 1, 2018
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I'm with Rigg on this one. I have a bunch of 1600's and a couple 1400's running on various motherboards, and exactly one of them (a 1600) can manage 3200 MT/s stable at reasonable RAM voltages. All of them can boot at 3200 but after minutes or hours it's crash city. One is stable at 3133, a few at 3000, one can only manage 2800 or whatever the nearest speed is. It has little to do with the motherboard and almost everything to do with the IMC in the Zen 1 CPU. (And that is with 2x8 RAM, 2x16 is even worse.)

As for the CPU itself, Zen 1 is well known to be voltage and architecture limited. If you can get a 1700 up to even 3.6 GHz all core, stable at 1.35v, declare victory. Once you start pushing much more than 1.4v you can figure the CPU lifetime in months unless you managed to get a golden sample.
 

thigobr

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Sep 4, 2016
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Unless you're really planning to upgrade to a newer CPU soon (Zen2 or 3) or your current board has any issues there's no point in getting a newer board to run a Zen1.

I used my Ryzen 7 1700 on all AM4 MB generations and it was never really limited be it core clock or memory clock. I have two 1700 chips, one from early batch (launch week) and another one from a later batch. The early one cannot go over 3800MHz core clock with reasonable voltages and memory clock won't go over 3200MHz (IF at 1600MHz). The second one can do 4000MHz with just 1.325V fully stable but the memory controller is also not happy above 3200MHz (which is rock solid tough).

At the beginning I had an Asus Prime Pro X370 that I considered bad for memory clocking but when I moved the CPUs to an Asus Strix B450-I all I could reach with both CPUs was the same 3200MHz on the memory.

Then I even used the 4GHz 1700 while doing RMA for the 5950X on my MSI Unify X570 but again not even 3333MHz was stable. And this same GSkill 3200MHz CL14 2x8GB Samsung b-die RAM kit happily runs at 3800MHz CL15 with my 5950X or the 3700X I used before it.
 
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thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
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Also reiterate @Rigg and @thigobr . I got my 1700X from 3.8Ghz to 3.9Ghz All Core very easily at stock voltage. But even going 4Ghz required going up to 1.4V, and I couldn't get an ounce higher without going to 1.45V (which I wasn't willing to do).

I was also running 32GB of 3400Mhz Samsung B Die RAM and couldn't get above 2933Mhz on the 1700X.

This is all on an X370 board mind you (ASUS Crosshair VI Hero AC). Fast Forward a couple of years and I upgraded to a 3800X in the same board. I'm instantly running 4.6Ghz all core clocks and the 32GB B Die kit at 3600Mhz CL16 without hardly fiddling with anything.

If you're looking for an upgrade to tide you over, $250 on a used 3800X is a way better use of the funds than $300 on an X570 board with the same Zen 1 CPU.
 

Shmee

Memory and Storage, Graphics Cards
Super Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
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What exactly is your B450 motherboard? You might want to look into getting a used 5800X on sale if possible, if your board supports Zen 3. I know some users are now selling 5800X and 5600X cheaper, as just a little while ago they were much easier to get than the dual chiplet Zen 3 CPUs, the 5900X and 5950X, and now that users who wanted one of these finally got one, they sell the single chiplet CPU they had in the mean time.
 
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Thibsie

Member
Apr 25, 2017
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What kind of stability testing did you and your friend do? Posting and booting into the OS is one thing but passing a suite of memory tests is going to be a lot harder at those speeds/timings on a Zen 1 CPU. I personally don't consider a memory overclock stable unless it passes memtest86, A long term DRAM calculator stress test, and a long term Large FFT p95 test.

Later production silicon and newer BIOS versions probably help getting better memory speeds/timings so I guess it's possible things have improved in the 2 years since I've played with these chips. Not to mention silicon lottery and mobo memory topology/trace layout are pretty major variables. I still think getting anything 24/7 stable above 3200 with good timings is atypical on these CPU's. Early on many people were struggling to even reach 3200.

I'm not sure if you are still disputing my CPU clock/voltage observations but FYI they are completely in line with Silicon Lottery's historical binning statistics.

Yep. My heavily overclocked 2600 was booting nicely and even playing Horizon Zero Dawn but anything harder like Lightroom processing or stress testing ended in freeze or reboot.
 
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HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
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What kind of stability testing did you and your friend do? Posting and booting into the OS is one thing but passing a suite of memory tests is going to be a lot harder at those speeds/timings on a Zen 1 CPU. I personally don't consider a memory overclock stable unless it passes memtest86, A long term DRAM calculator stress test, and a long term Large FFT p95 test.

Later production silicon and newer BIOS versions probably help getting better memory speeds/timings so I guess it's possible things have improved in the 2 years since I've played with these chips. Not to mention silicon lottery and mobo memory topology/trace layout are pretty major variables. I still think getting anything 24/7 stable above 3200 with good timings is atypical on these CPU's. Early on many people were struggling to even reach 3200.

I'm not sure if you are still disputing my CPU clock/voltage observations but FYI they are completely in line with Silicon Lottery's historical binning statistics.

i ran memtest on the sticks i tested and my friend uses them as daily drivers, no problems at all, as for the clock thing, we both got our cpus after zen+ launch, so they make sense, considering the matured manufacturing process
 

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
15
0
6
What exactly is your B450 motherboard? You might want to look into getting a used 5800X on sale if possible, if your board supports Zen 3. I know some users are now selling 5800X and 5600X cheaper, as just a little while ago they were much easier to get than the dual chiplet Zen 3 CPUs, the 5900X and 5950X, and now that users who wanted one of these finally got one, they sell the single chiplet CPU they had in the mean time.
I have a Msi b450 Gamin-Plus, it's a decent and cheap bord, but suboptimal for overclocking.

Here in germany at leat there isnt any supply issue with the zen 3 cpus, i know that i could get more performance if i just bought a cpu, but i wanted to oc my zen 1 chip a little more and thought i was limited by my mb
 

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
15
0
6
Unless you're really planning to upgrade to a newer CPU soon (Zen2 or 3) or your current board has any issues there's no point in getting a newer board to run a Zen1.

I used my Ryzen 7 1700 on all AM4 MB generations and it was never really limited be it core clock or memory clock. I have two 1700 chips, one from early batch (launch week) and another one from a later batch. The early one cannot go over 3800MHz core clock with reasonable voltages and memory clock won't go over 3200MHz (IF at 1600MHz). The second one can do 4000MHz with just 1.325V fully stable but the memory controller is also not happy above 3200MHz (which is rock solid tough).

At the beginning I had an Asus Prime Pro X370 that I considered bad for memory clocking but when I moved the CPUs to an Asus Strix B450-I all I could reach with both CPUs was the same 3200MHz on the memory.

Then I even used the 4GHz 1700 while doing RMA for the 5950X on my MSI Unify X570 but again not even 3333MHz was stable. And this same GSkill 3200MHz CL14 2x8GB Samsung b-die RAM kit happily runs at 3800MHz CL15 with my 5950X or the 3700X I used before it.

I'm starting to doubt my memory, wether it actually was 3600mt/s and not 3200, i do plan on getting a zen 3 cpu tho, but propably only after zen 4 launch
 

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
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I'm with Rigg on this one. I have a bunch of 1600's and a couple 1400's running on various motherboards, and exactly one of them (a 1600) can manage 3200 MT/s stable at reasonable RAM voltages. All of them can boot at 3200 but after minutes or hours it's crash city. One is stable at 3133, a few at 3000, one can only manage 2800 or whatever the nearest speed is. It has little to do with the motherboard and almost everything to do with the IMC in the Zen 1 CPU. (And that is with 2x8 RAM, 2x16 is even worse.)

As for the CPU itself, Zen 1 is well known to be voltage and architecture limited. If you can get a 1700 up to even 3.6 GHz all core, stable at 1.35v, declare victory. Once you start pushing much more than 1.4v you can figure the CPU lifetime in months unless you managed to get a golden sample.
i theoretically could getmyself a new cpu, which would also be the smartest decision if i only were after performance in general, so i've been sort of careless for a few months now, running 4.1ghz@1.375V almost daily, dont freak out yet, it crashes in benches, but it works everywhere else, i also have the suspition, that it never, in actuallity, goes above 4ghz, just becuase i've never seen it go up to it in task manager, even while doing cpu intensive tasks that are not benches. the Only problem i have with that config are the Vrms, which are running too hot for my liking, even though i often run my pc without a side panel and a fan directed at them.
 

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
15
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I'm now confused, i ran the cpu z stresstest to look up mosfet temps and for some reason they run at 1.325V(according to hwmonitor) and 4.07Ghz, is this just a property of the cpu z benchmark, that it works well with lower voltages, or what is going on here?
 

Rigg

Senior member
May 6, 2020
205
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I'm now confused, i ran the cpu z stresstest to look up mosfet temps and for some reason they run at 1.325V(according to hwmonitor) and 4.07Ghz, is this just a property of the cpu z benchmark, that it works well with lower voltages, or what is going on here?
This is V-droop. As the cpu pulls current under load the voltage drops. This is why load line calibration exists. The clock is probably off because you have spread spectrum enabled. I'd use hwinfo64 over hwmonitor. The later kind of sucks in comparison to the former. Out of curiosity what does CPUZ say in the technology section under the CPU tab? AMD produced some 1600's on 12nm (zen+) for a while. The way yours is clocking makes me wonder if it might be a stealth 2700. I realize it's not fully stable at 4.1 but even getting it to post at that clock/voltage is pretty impressive. I had some pretty late production 1600's that weren't nearly that good.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,361
1,547
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If you're looking for an upgrade to tide you over, $250 on a used 3800X is a way better use of the funds than $300 on an X570 board with the same Zen 1 CPU.
Not beat a dead horse but this really is the beginning and end to this. Specially if you already have a board that should support a 3k or 5k CPU. $200 buys you a lot of CPU, much more than the 1700/x Ever was. Heck a 3600 has almost as much compute power as that with 2 less cores and the extra clockspeed is important for games. You can get that for cheaper than the new board. Sure you might at some point want to upgrade the board, $/Perf youd be better off jumping up on CPU anyways. For 300 you can get the 3700x and for $370 you can get the 3800x with unlocked power. A 3800x would be between 30-40% faster, between increased base/turbo clocks, and the Zen 2 arch compared to anything you can do with a 1700 (considering any overclock usually stops around 3.9 and 4 GHz, with most capping out at 3.8).

As for your problems. It's probably not the memory. It's the mostly a the IMC and a little bit on the MB. If it crashes on benches, then your are at the edge and your eventually through electromigration the chip will do worse and worse till it stops working.

In the end your at the edge of the limitations of that gen CPU and probably not limited on any level by the board (no matter the board choice).
 
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HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
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Not beat a dead horse but this really is the beginning and end to this. Specially if you already have a board that should support a 3k or 5k CPU. $200 buys you a lot of CPU, much more than the 1700/x Ever was. Heck a 3600 has almost as much compute power as that with 2 less cores and the extra clockspeed is important for games. You can get that for cheaper than the new board. Sure you might at some point want to upgrade the board, $/Perf youd be better off jumping up on CPU anyways. For 300 you can get the 3700x and for $370 you can get the 3800x with unlocked power. A 3800x would be between 30-40% faster, between increased base/turbo clocks, and the Zen 2 arch compared to anything you can do with a 1700 (considering any overclock usually stops around 3.9 and 4 GHz, with most capping out at 3.8).

As for your problems. It's probably not the memory. It's the mostly a the IMC and a little bit on the MB. If it crashes on benches, then your are at the edge and your eventually through electromigration the chip will do worse and worse till it stops working.

In the end your at the edge of the limitations of that gen CPU and probably not limited on any level by the board (no matter the board choice).
Well, thsi isnt about price performance, but overclocking, i know for sure its the vrms holding me back, and i still had a lot of fun despite thant and wanted to get something, that would be able to get better results. so it would usually be for benchmarks, not day to day performance, dont worry, im not planing to run my cpu at xoc voltages
 

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
15
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This is V-droop. As the cpu pulls current under load the voltage drops. This is why load line calibration exists. The clock is probably off because you have spread spectrum enabled. I'd use hwinfo64 over hwmonitor. The later kind of sucks in comparison to the former. Out of curiosity what does CPUZ say in the technology section under the CPU tab? AMD produced some 1600's on 12nm (zen+) for a while. The way yours is clocking makes me wonder if it might be a stealth 2700. I realize it's not fully stable at 4.1 but even getting it to post at that clock/voltage is pretty impressive. I had some pretty late production 1600's that weren't nearly that good.
yea, after a bit of googling i also came to that result (technically this is just the load line itself, which exists, because vdroop would make it run above the spec voltage, even if just for the brink of a second), sadly, i dont have a 12nm chip tho, im not aware of any 1000 series chips taht even can be 12nm, except for the 1600af and some 1200.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,501
405
126
I'm with Rigg on this one. I have a bunch of 1600's and a couple 1400's running on various motherboards, and exactly one of them (a 1600) can manage 3200 MT/s stable at reasonable RAM voltages. All of them can boot at 3200 but after minutes or hours it's crash city. One is stable at 3133, a few at 3000, one can only manage 2800 or whatever the nearest speed is. It has little to do with the motherboard and almost everything to do with the IMC in the Zen 1 CPU. (And that is with 2x8 RAM, 2x16 is even worse.)

As for the CPU itself, Zen 1 is well known to be voltage and architecture limited. If you can get a 1700 up to even 3.6 GHz all core, stable at 1.35v, declare victory. Once you start pushing much more than 1.4v you can figure the CPU lifetime in months unless you managed to get a golden sample.
I don't know. My 1700x with e-die ran fine with XMP 3200C16, memtest passed. b-die XMP 3200C14 was fine as well. I currently run 2x16+2x8 edie kits and it passed metest at 3000 but I backed it off to 2933 since it failed not much above 3000. I never ran more than XMP voltage myself

But I actually returned a hynix kit because it couldn't run XMP. It actually might have failed to boot I can't remember. Since e-die only cost like 10% more than hynix I just stopped buying hynix ram.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,361
1,547
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Well, thsi isnt about price performance, but overclocking, i know for sure its the vrms holding me back, and i still had a lot of fun despite thant and wanted to get something, that would be able to get better results. so it would usually be for benchmarks, not day to day performance, dont worry, im not planing to run my cpu at xoc voltages
Seems a really weird practice to look for a board to OC a CPU, when even if you are right (and I am not sold you are, you are already far a head of what most people got with a 1700. It's limited in so many ways. It would be like trying to purchase a Z590 board (assuming compatibility which there is none) to overclock a 2600k. I get that it is fun playing around with it, but the limits are sooooooo way below what available now. The only difference is that your current board is usable all the way up to the 5k CPU's. There just isn't a real value, specially considering that overclocking the 1k and 2k are so much different than the 3k and 5k CPU so its not even really good practice. Added onto the clock limits the IMC limits just makes the whole exercise seem more masochistic than fun.
 

HexaTron

Junior Member
Apr 29, 2021
15
0
6
Seems a really weird practice to look for a board to OC a CPU, when even if you are right (and I am not sold you are, you are already far a head of what most people got with a 1700. It's limited in so many ways. It would be like trying to purchase a Z590 board (assuming compatibility which there is none) to overclock a 2600k. I get that it is fun playing around with it, but the limits are sooooooo way below what available now. The only difference is that your current board is usable all the way up to the 5k CPU's. There just isn't a real value, specially considering that overclocking the 1k and 2k are so much different than the 3k and 5k CPU so its not even really good practice. Added onto the clock limits the IMC limits just makes the whole exercise seem more masochistic than fun.
while i was trying to max out clock, i stopped trying to do that, after i hit 110c+ on my vrms, besides its not like i play ons taying on my 1700 for ever, it would also be an investment in acse i decide to get a new one
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,361
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while i was trying to max out clock, i stopped trying to do that, after i hit 110c+ on my vrms, besides its not like i play ons taying on my 1700 for ever, it would also be an investment in acse i decide to get a new one
while i was trying to max out clock, i stopped trying to do that, after i hit 110c+ on my vrms, besides its not like i play ons taying on my 1700 for ever, it would also be an investment in acse i decide to get a new one
You do you. But you already said this is for crapping around and you are not using it at the OC setting. So you are talking about buying a board not because its the best board for the money now, but to OC this 1700 you aren't going to be using at speed. Better to wait till you are ready to upgrade and again you can get a 3700x or 5600 for the price, use that now and then can get a better OC board later when you were ready. The fact you have a board that can run a 3600/3700/5600 and get waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more performance for the same cost, still seemingly makes it more pointless. If you are going to be using the 1700 for a while. Then do so. Then get a new board and CPU at the same time when you are ready for the upgrade. Again this is more my opinion. You do what you feel is best for you. Just doesn't seem right not to give you the information that would save money and give you a better experience.
 

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