wtf? Fascism in Germany?

[JEDIYoda]

So when Merkel says "multiculturalism has failed" it means that in her opinion the left's version of integration (weak assimilation) is the reason why immigrants don't learn the language etc. etc. There's nothing new here, it's just the usual "you're wrong, I'm right" along the usual party lines.

I am sorry but now you are adding to words that she said by trying to explain those words to mean something that was not said!!
You are putting words into her mouth!!

She is right....this is a factual statement that she made. It was not based on following party lines.

 

[CanOWorms]

CanOWorms in the article you posted this is what it says -- Angela Merkel declares death of German multiculturalism
Chancellor's remarks, which claimed multiculturalism had 'failed utterly', interpreted as a shift rightwards from previous views

The German leader said it had been an illusion to think that Germans and foreign workers could "live happily side by side.

You need to read the article and understand that JohnOfSheffield is correct as is ConstipatedVigilante!!

You are making this out to be much bigger than what it is!!

No, I'm not. You are trying to make it seem much smaller. It is a mistake that will lead to a massacre.

We have a leader of a large country, one with a history of genocide, adopting the views of the Nazi members of its society. That is extremely troubling.

Even the views of German society overall is troubling. For example, a recent poll found that 55% of Germans dislike Arabs. That is pure hatred.

Europe's Identity Crisis Fuels Rising Anti-Muslim Sentiment
http://www.aolnews.com/world/articl...s-fuels-rising-anti-muslim-sentiment/19670466

More than 55 percent of those polled by researchers from the University of Leipzig declared that Arabs weren't pleasant people -- up from 44 percent in 2003 -- and 58 percent said the practice of Islam should be "considerably restricted."

We saw this before. It also happened in Germany. It also happened to other minority groups.

The german Chancellor is talking ONLY about foreign workers!! She is NOT talking about workers who have learned the language and have jobs and are a productive part of German Society!

No, she's not. She's appealing to the Nazi element of society. That segment seeks ethnic cleansing.

Why is the same rhetoric towards ethnic Germans who immigrated from Russia lacking the same character as that against other minority groups? They also have issues with learning the language. It's because of racial reasons and that these people are viewed as part of the unification of Hitler's Master Race. It's the same reason why the same rhetoric isn't used against East German unification.

You can post all your supposed facts about how well immigrants are doing in germany, but that proves nothing other than some innigrants do well, while the majority refuse to learn the language and they have no jobs because they refuse to learn the language and they have no interest in joining German society. They wish to start their own society within German Society.

Please provide a link to a survey that shows that the majority of immigrants in the context of Merkel's speech do not learn the language. And how can you claim that they have no jobs when the statistics say the opposite?

Sad but true-- Merkel is correct!!

No, she's not.

 

[amyklai]

You truncated the statement on Wikipedia. It says: "The word Führer in the sense of guide remains common in German, but comes with some stigma and negative connotation when used as the meaning of leader. The word Leiter is therefore used instead."

And in the political context: "In Germany the isolated term Führer is usually avoided in political meaning, due to its intimate connection with Nazi institutions and Hitler personally."

It is quite clear. These people support Nazis. And you're going to great lengths to cover for them.

No it's not so clear.

The Friedrich Ebert Stiftung which conducted this survey asked if people consented with views that are predominantly right wing without outrightly asking about Nazis, Hitler etc. The idea was to find out how open the "middle of the society" is to this type of ideas.
While "Führer" has a strong nazi connotation, it does not 1:1 mean Hitler or the nazis. It can also mean strong authoritative figure, guide etc. Hell, a travel guide is still called "Reiseführer" and nobody will think of Hitler in this context. So, it will get a lot more positive answers than asking "Do you want Hitler / the Nazis back?".

And that was exactly the point of the study: it should find out how big the potential for far right ideas is in the German society, not how many people support the nazis.

If these 13% really supported the Nazis, then please explain why a party like the NPD (which is the closest thing to Nazism that exists today) hardly ever cracks the 5% hurdle to get into parliaments on the state or country level? If your "it's clear they support the nazis" theory held water, that shouldn't be a problem at all, should it?

 

[amyklai]

I am sorry but now you are adding to words that she said by trying to explain those words to mean something that was not said!!
You are putting words into her mouth!!

She is right....this is a factual statement that she made. It was not based on following party lines.

No, I'm just adding the context of the political debate. Looking at the statements without that context is just ignorant.

 

[amyklai]

No, I'm not. You are trying to make it seem much smaller. It is a mistake that will lead to a massacre.

We have a leader of a large country, one with a history of genocide, adopting the views of the Nazi members of its society. That is extremely troubling.

Even the views of German society overall is troubling. For example, a recent poll found that 55% of Germans dislike Arabs. That is pure hatred.

Europe's Identity Crisis Fuels Rising Anti-Muslim Sentiment
http://www.aolnews.com/world/articl...s-fuels-rising-anti-muslim-sentiment/19670466
We saw this before. It also happened in Germany. It also happened to other minority groups.

No, she's not. She's appealing to the Nazi element of society. That segment seeks ethnic cleansing.

Why is the same rhetoric towards ethnic Germans who immigrated from Russia lacking the same character as that against other minority groups? They also have issues with learning the language. It's because of racial reasons and that these people are viewed as part of the unification of Hitler's Master Race. It's the same reason why the same rhetoric isn't used against East German unification.

Please provide a link to a survey that shows that the majority of immigrants in the context of Merkel's speech do not learn the language. And how can you claim that they have no jobs when the statistics say the opposite?

No, she's not.

Merkel and ethnic cleansing? Hitler's Master Race? Your views are bizarre but entertaining in a strange way.

 

[piasabird]

Interesting that we call Germany Fascist but not the USA. Maybe they are just racists. People should be able to discuss a massive inflow of foreign immigration without being called names.

 

[Scotteq]

Interesting that we call Germany Fascist but not the USA. Maybe they are just racists. People should be able to discuss a massive inflow of foreign immigration without being called names.

We call people in the USA "Facists" and "Racists" and "Whores" and whatever other vileness enters our little pea brains as a matter of common routine. This is called "Political Dialogue" here in the USA. It's very popular here, since it's a lot easier than actually thinking. :\

 

[BeauJangles]

That's nonsense. It was a greencard system, there was no offer for immigration, it was an offer to work in Germany for a limited time. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter .
The mistake was that when the originally planned return time was up and people were still not ready to realise that the Gastarbeiter program factually become immigration and act accordingly. But that goes to both sides. For example, a lot of immigrants still don't have German citizenship although they could easily get it. They just still consider themselves as Turks, Greeks, Italians, whatever and dont't want to change this. Had this been a planned immigration from the outset, where language requirements and the requirement to take up the new citizenship had existed, many of these problems wouldn't exist.



How have they be ostracized? How have they been unable to live near like-minded individuals? In what way are they treated badly?
I think in a lot of ways, Germany makes it easier for poor families (relatively good social security, almost no cost for attending university).




How are those laws exceedingly difficult? Stay for 7 years, take a course, pass a language test, bingo.
Today, it's probably not much easier to get into the USA.

I'm sorry if I am mistaken. When I was living there, that's how it was explained to me by a bunch of different people. I don't want to continue an argument where you clearly know more about this issue than I do.

So apologies for substituting repeated opinions for fact.

 

[soulcougher73]

Not wanting to change is a change though.

What happens if some German went to San Francisco and saw some some fashion he liked, went back to Germany, and decides to participate in the trend. Should he not be allowed to do that? Should government mandate his culture?

Sorry this is just to retarded to respond to. Im pulling an Routan.

 

[epidemis]

Why are you listening to canofworms? He's a troll who have advocated bombing france

 

[OutHouse]

No, she's not. She's appealing to the Nazi element of society. That segment seeks ethnic cleansing.

umm wow, you got anything to back that up or are you just spouting bullshit?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Thankfully the US has military bases in Germany. We should be increasing our military presence there in preparation of having to prevent yet another freaking European genocide.

Yikes, do Europeans ever get tired of hating people? It's always the same story over and over again.

 

[Thump553]

Xenophobia is not facism.

There are lots of countries far more xenophobic than Germany. Japan, Korea (both versions, but in completely different ways) and Red China come to mind immediately.

 

[JEDIYoda]

So apologies for substituting repeated opinions for fact.

God I just love cop outs!!
One man`s fact is another man`s opinion...and so on and so forth..lol

 

[JEDIYoda]

You've just repeated what has been said here. There isn't new perspective except that you're trying to blame immigrants failure to integrate on them rather on the society that didn't give a crap about them, treated them like dirt, and saw them simply as cogs in their economy.

I would have no problem if Germany had implemented a green card system, but they didn't. As you said, many of these workers lived in Germany for years, raised families, and had children there. It was their home, despite the fact that their home didn't really want them there. -- you know the article says the issue is with
foreign workers. NOT foreign workers who have been in Germany for generations!

I've been to Germany a bunch, it's a great country, but they are dead wrong in how they treat their immigrants. Why should anybody be surprised that a group that is consistently ostracized from a society would be uninterested in learning the language, unable to do well in schools, and interested in living near other like-minded individuals?
Your argument does not compute. Foreign workers should automatically take it upon themselves to learn the language and make friends of the populace!

As for the citizenship laws, give me a break. The reforms certainly made it easier to obtain citizenship, but becoming a citizen in Germany isn't easy and the odds are stacked against immigrants. -- the odds should be stacked against! That way when they do get citizenship it will mean something to them!!

Truthfully, America can learn a lot of lessons from Germany and France, both in our immigration policies and in our treatment of immigrants once they've arrived.

Your opinion...hmmm....
I see the Germany that Merkel sees. I have also lives in Germany. I do not believe it is up to the state to bend over backwards to make immigrants feel at home. By the way - a home that they will eventually assimilate.

 

[BeauJangles]

God I just love cop outs!!
One man`s fact is another man`s opinion...and so on and so forth..lol

What cop-out? Admitting that I was wrong?

He's presented a pretty good fact-based argument that I am mistaken in what I know. He's backed it up with an obvious understanding of Germany and a couple of different citations and he's clearly more familiar with the immigration process and reforms than I am. My information on the matter came from a couple of articles I've read here, conversations with people here, and conversations with people in Germany. It seems highly likely to me that I have been misinformed and I'd rather admit that than carry on an argument.

 

[Infohawk]

Merkel and ethnic cleansing? Hitler's Master Race? Your views are bizarre but entertaining in a strange way.

LOL it only took you six posts to pick up on COW's deal. Yep, his shenanigans are entertaining. But in all seriousness you should note that COW was apparently a victim of racism in Europe (although maybe they just didn't like him as opposed to his race [he obviously has serious personality flaws]). Ever since then he's been hating all western Europeans and trying to rationalize that hatred. It's sad and hypocritical that he responds to generalizations and hatred with his own generalizations and hatred. Obviously he's not a very enlightened person.

 

[CanOWorms]

No it's not so clear.

The Friedrich Ebert Stiftung which conducted this survey asked if people consented with views that are predominantly right wing without outrightly asking about Nazis, Hitler etc. The idea was to find out how open the "middle of the society" is to this type of ideas.
While "Führer" has a strong nazi connotation, it does not 1:1 mean Hitler or the nazis. It can also mean strong authoritative figure, guide etc. Hell, a travel guide is still called "Reiseführer" and nobody will think of Hitler in this context. So, it will get a lot more positive answers than asking "Do you want Hitler / the Nazis back?".

And that was exactly the point of the study: it should find out how big the potential for far right ideas is in the German society, not how many people support the nazis.

If these 13% really supported the Nazis, then please explain why a party like the NPD (which is the closest thing to Nazism that exists today) hardly ever cracks the 5% hurdle to get into parliaments on the state or country level? If your "it's clear they support the nazis" theory held water, that shouldn't be a problem at all, should it?

Wow, you're amazingly naive.

The NPD doesn't encompass all far-right voters. Why do you think Merkel is saying all this stuff? It's because much of them are in the political mainstream nowadays. Their views have been adopted by the mainstream political parties. You can't solely look at far-right growth by looking at the parties that were at the fringe. You need to see how they're influencing the establishment.

This is exactly what so many analysts and human rights organizations have been saying for years. People like you just want to believe that the problem isn't there.

 

[CanOWorms]

umm wow, you got anything to back that up or are you just spouting bullshit?

The articles posted in the thread say that she is appealing to the right. It's not exactly difficult to back up.

 

[CanOWorms]

Thankfully the US has military bases in Germany. We should be increasing our military presence there in preparation of having to prevent yet another freaking European genocide.

Yikes, do Europeans ever get tired of hating people? It's always the same story over and over again.

Yes, it NEVER ends. Genocide after genocide. Hate just keeps building up there. It never stops!

They can be killing millions of people and people will just say "oh, it's ok because it's their culture and that is more important than human lives."

 

[CanOWorms]

Why are you listening to canofworms? He's a troll who have advocated bombing france

Why is someone a troll when they advocate something like that? Many people on this forum are ok with bombing Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Serbia, etc.

Americans need to get comfortable with the idea of not being friendly with Western Europe, especially with our demographics showing that Americans without European ties are becoming a larger portion of our population. Look at our current president - his association with Europe is not as strong as our previous presidents.

 

[brandonb]

So Germany has finally figured out what 4 billion years of evolution has told us? Birds of a feather flock together?

 

[werepossum]

What cop-out? Admitting that I was wrong?

He's presented a pretty good fact-based argument that I am mistaken in what I know. He's backed it up with an obvious understanding of Germany and a couple of different citations and he's clearly more familiar with the immigration process and reforms than I am. My information on the matter came from a couple of articles I've read here, conversations with people here, and conversations with people in Germany. It seems highly likely to me that I have been misinformed and I'd rather admit that than carry on an argument.

Kudos to you for admitting when you're wrong, or may be wrong. Sometimes the other guy just has a better argument or better facts, but it takes a big Internet avatar to admit it. (I'm not commenting on your before and after positions as I don't remember them, merely on your adult behavior.)