wtf? Fascism in Germany?

[amyklai]

Useless?

These immigrants are the folks that have laid the base Germany's economy over the last forty years. Without them, Germany wouldn't have had enough warm bodies to fuel their growing economy.

Despite that the fact that these folks were essential for the economic growth experienced by Germany, the country has turned their back on them now that things have slowed down. I'm sorry, but that isn't right. You depend on these people and they give up their lives, families, and everything else to move into your country and then, suddenly, you sweep the rug out from under them?

Guess what happens when the economy picks back up? Germany will open its doors again and tell these people how happy they are to have them. They'll be begging for them to come back.

It's disgusting and it's disgusting the way that they are treated within the country.

And, even if you do think it's right, it has lead to tremendous problems within the country, most of which could have been avoided if these people had been offered a path to citizenship and if the country had made an effort to make them Germans.

Germany and France are both guilty of using these people and now they're surprised that:

(a) after ten, twenty, or even thirty years within the country these people don't want to suddenly pack up and move? Many of the "turkish" people that live within Germany have never been to Turkey. They've lived their entire lives in Germany. They are only not "Germans" because Germany wanted it that way... and now they don't.

b) that their country is suddenly less German? It is foolish beyond belief.

These immigration issues are a classic case of wanting to have a your cake and eat it too.

That's not really the issue. Foreigners who have been living in Germany for 8 years (this can be reduced to 7 by attending an "integration course" which is mainly a crash course on language, laws & culture) can naturalize there, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

Now, a little perspective on the issue:
Originally, in the sixties, Germany hired workers from abroad because there was a lack of workers. The idea was similar to the American green card system: you go there to work for a few years and then go back. Germany didn't want to become an immigration country at that time. The idea of becoming an immigration country was generally not exactly widespread in Europe at that time. These people initially came without their families, because they planned to go back. Usually, they didn't try to learn German beyond what was necessary for work (which often wasn't much, they were usually hired for rather simple jobs).

Then, after five or ten years, when it became clear that they would stay longer than initially planned, their wives and children moved to Germany. The children were often already 5, 10 or 15 years old, so a good part of the 2nd generation had grown up partly outside of Germany as well. Later, in the case immigrants from Turkey, when this 2nd generation married, they often married wives or husbands from Turkey who then moved to Germany but again were 1st generation immigrants. Also, there has been ghettoization in places like Berlin-Kreuzberg.

The children of these immigrants still have much worse average results at school. This isn't much of a surprise when many don't talk German at home or with their friends. Also, in some cases the cultural background makes things even more difficult (eg. boys with a muslim background often don't respect women as teachers). As a result, unemployment is siginficantly higher among this group.

Now, there's welfare that's being paid to jobless people in Germany. For example, a family of five can get around €2100-€2500 (depends on things like rent and heating costs) plus health care. At the same time, the low salary sector has grown in the last two decades, so there are quite a few people who work and barely make more money than a family that's on welfare. So that's an angle that's easy to exploit for pupulists and demagogues.

A few months ago, a former politician who had moved to the German central bank (Thilo Sarrazin) wrote a controversial book in which he described some of the existing problems, but then drew some rather crazy conclusions and basically said that Turks and Muslims are unwilling to integrate themselves and culturally backwards and that if we needed immigration, we should rather let hard working Asians in instead of lazy Turks, Arabs or other Muslims who will only collect welfare. That led to rather heated debates, Sarrazin had to leave his job at the central bank and lately a right wing politician (Seehofer) said that "it's obvious that people form other culture groups [ie muslim instead of christian] have mor difficulties integrating themselves into our society so it's obvious that we don't need more immigration from other culture groups". Which lead to another heated debate.

 

[Generator]

Pat yourselves on the back Americans. 8 short years and already the German, French, and English are already to give up on the melting pot. Must be nice to run a mickey mouse country where there is no conflict because anyone who was different was murdered, robbed, and run out of the country.

America is number one!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Jesus fucking christ....

This is about failed integration policies, not about immigration at all.

The very real problem is the same in much of Europe, ever since the four wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq Europe has been taking in a SHITLOAD of refugees, just as an example i can mention that one city of less than 50K inhabitants have taken in more Iraqi refugees than the whole of North America put together. This has led to parts of almost all cities being inhabited singlehandedly by immigrants from any one of these areas, they don't know the language of the nation they inhabit and they have no will to learn it, they have no will to integrate or work in the society they inhabit and they are also the cause of many of the riots (not all though) you can all read about in Europe.

Angela Merkel is saying that these policies cannot continue, if they cannot get work because they don't understand the language of their assigned (and yes, welfare in Germany is only paid out on the condition that you apply for any and all jobs you are assigned) then they shouldn't get any welfare. This will inevitably lead to higher criminality for obvious reasons so instead of waiting for that to happen they want stricter integration policies.

That's it, this isn't about fascism or nazism, it's about the immigrants becoming a productive part of the German society.

 

[CanOWorms]

No its not.

Yes, it is. It's even the first line of the article that I posted. There is other confirmation as well. For example, Wikipedia states:

"In Germany the isolated term Führer is usually avoided in political meaning, due to its intimate connection with Nazi institutions and Hitler personally."

 

[CanOWorms]

This is pretty much what i think as well. Nothing wrong with wanting to maintain your national identity and traditions. And if immigrants are causing unwanted changes then the only way to deal with it is to get rid of them (i dont mean killing) or only allow immigrants who actual plan to assimilate into your country/culture.

The national identity and traditions have changed. They are not static.

 

[CanOWorms]

Who is?

If you up and leave your land of origin and are allowed to move into someone elses, you better damn well integrate yourself. You don't have to denounce your heritage and culture, but don't impose it on the people that let you live in their nation.

Sorry, but people can't necessary follow the European idea of integration. It basically requires changing your name, ethnicity, race, religion, skin color, etc.

Also, it seems that many people want to impose their own heritage and culture on others in the nation. It seems that they want to impose it on the descendants of the immigrants.

Why is it now, that the minority trumps the majority? No longer does the minority want to be equal, the minority wants to be MORE equal.

Germany's history involving its minority groups and the ease of whipping up the majority into a genocidal frenzy requires extra scrutiny on its actions.

 

[CanOWorms]

This line of reasoning only works when people are allowed to be successful in redefining arguments into some Cloud KooKooLand terms where the the individuals making such ridiculous assertions could actually be perceived as being correct.

Too bad it's actually correct.

Not to mention re-issuing millions and millions of Führerschein.

It's a good thing that's a compound word then.

 

[CanOWorms]

Jesus fucking christ....

This is about failed integration policies, not about immigration at all.

The very real problem is the same in much of Europe, ever since the four wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq Europe has been taking in a SHITLOAD of refugees, just as an example i can mention that one city of less than 50K inhabitants have taken in more Iraqi refugees than the whole of North America put together. This has led to parts of almost all cities being inhabited singlehandedly by immigrants from any one of these areas, they don't know the language of the nation they inhabit and they have no will to learn it, they have no will to integrate or work in the society they inhabit and they are also the cause of many of the riots (not all though) you can all read about in Europe.

Angela Merkel is saying that these policies cannot continue, if they cannot get work because they don't understand the language of their assigned (and yes, welfare in Germany is only paid out on the condition that you apply for any and all jobs you are assigned) then they shouldn't get any welfare. This will inevitably lead to higher criminality for obvious reasons so instead of waiting for that to happen they want stricter integration policies.

That's it, this isn't about fascism or nazism, it's about the immigrants becoming a productive part of the German society.

Jesus fucking christ....

The immigrants and their descendants aren't even allowed to be productive members of society. This is all about demonizing a minority group and repeating history over and over again as millions and millions of people are killed. We never learn. People will be massacred. It will be stopped. The momentum will build up again where people like you try to deny it, and then another slaughter happens.

Repeat forever until someone actually realizes that integrating these people in the majority culture won't change anything because it is the majority culture that must change. Freezing your culture into how it was in the 16th century is not stable.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Jesus fucking christ....

The immigrants and their descendants aren't even allowed to be productive members of society. This is all about demonizing a minority group and repeating history over and over again as millions and millions of people are killed. We never learn. People will be massacred. It will be stopped. The momentum will build up again where people like you try to deny it, and then another slaughter happens.

Repeat forever until someone actually realizes that integrating these people in the majority culture won't change anything because it is the majority culture that must change. Freezing your culture into how it was in the 16th century is not stable.

I know you are fucked in the head and have declared that the US should start a war against Europe as soon as possible on multiple occasions but seriously, try to understand what this is about.

Take your average Arab speaking refugee and put him in the middle of a German city, don't give him any help and see how well he integrates when society bends and instead of providing him with the language and the knowledge to actually become a productive member of society they put him on welfare until welfare is up and he gets nothing at all.

THAT is the problem most European countries face today, see through fear of being regarded as extremists or fascists they have allowed this to happen until communities within the nation living outside of the nation have formed, they don't know the language, they can't work, they are assigned places to apply for work and it has to be hell for them coming there knowing full well that they don't have any chance since they don't even know how to talk to the employer without an interpreter.

THAT is wrong, these outcasts have been created by a failed integration policy and THAT is what Angela is talking about. They have to learn the language, customs and laws of the land or they will have NO chance of integration in society, note that this doesn't mean giving anything up, learning how to interact with the society around you doesn't mean you have to give up your own cultural identity.

 

[CanOWorms]

I know you are fucked in the head and have declared that the US should start a war against Europe as soon as possible on multiple occasions but seriously, try to understand what this is about.

It seems that you need to understand what this is about.

Take your average Arab speaking refugee and put him in the middle of a German city, don't give him any help and see how well he integrates when society bends and instead of providing him with the language and the knowledge to actually become a productive member of society they put him on welfare until welfare is up and he gets nothing at all.

First of all, many (if not most) of these people are not refugees (nor immigrants). They were born there.

The society is not bending to accommodate them. They are treated worse than their majority counterparts. They are demonized. They are blamed for any social ills out of convenience.

If these people had names like Otto there would be no problem. People just don't want to help minority groups there. They have no problem sending billions in welfare for the former East Germany because it unites Hitler's Great Race.

THAT is the problem most European countries face today, see through fear of being regarded as extremists or fascists they have allowed this to happen until communities within the nation living outside of the nation have formed, they don't know the language, they can't work, they are assigned places to apply for work and it has to be hell for them coming there knowing full well that they don't have any chance since they don't even know how to talk to the employer without an interpreter.

Please provide a link that details how many German-born people do not speak German. It seems essential to your argument.

In addition, Europe is a hodgepodge of languages. The people of Europe tend to take pride in their languages despite their irrelevance in global culture. It seems that any lack of learning the language shows that they are integrating into the majority culture due to the huge priority in Europe to preserve language.

THAT is wrong, these outcasts have been created by a failed integration policy and THAT is what Angela is talking about. They have to learn the language, customs and laws of the land or they will have NO chance of integration in society, note that this doesn't mean giving anything up, learning how to interact with the society around you doesn't mean you have to give up your own cultural identity.

The customs of the land is so varied. Do the other people have to learn the customs of the minority groups since their customs are also of the land nowadays?

 

[soulcougher73]

The national identity and traditions have changed. They are not static.

Hence the problems countries are facing. They dont want to change. It is what makes them unique or different from other cultures/countries.

 

[CanOWorms]

Hence the problems countries are facing. They dont want to change. It is what makes them unique or different from other cultures/countries.

Not wanting to change is a change though.

What happens if some German went to San Francisco and saw some some fashion he liked, went back to Germany, and decides to participate in the trend. Should he not be allowed to do that? Should government mandate his culture?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It seems that you need to understand what this is about.

First of all, many (if not most) of these people are not refugees (nor immigrants). They were born there.

And there you go, you have no idea who Angela Merkel are referring to at all.

The ones she's talking about are the incredible influx of new refugees and immigrants who don't speak the language, who don't understand the laws of the land and who HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO INTEGRATE.

The overwhelming majority of regular immigrants and their children in Germany are well integrated and treated as any other German is treated.

You make up shit in your head and believe in that but that isn't really helpful.

 

[CanOWorms]

And there you go, you have no idea who Angela Merkel are referring to at all.

The ones she's talking about are the incredible influx of new refugees and immigrants who don't speak the language, who don't understand the laws of the land and who HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO INTEGRATE.

And there you go, you have no idea who Angela Merkel are referring to at all. SHE CLAIMS THAT MULTICULTURAL HAS FAILED IN GERMANY.

The overwhelming majority of regular immigrants and their children in Germany are well integrated and treated as any other German is treated.

Wow, do you live in some delusional world? They're treating as any other German? Are you for real here?

You make up shit in your head and believe in that but that isn't really helpful.

You make up shit in your head and believe in that but that isn't really helpful. You're just promoting the next genocide with your ignorance.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

And there you go, you have no idea who Angela Merkel are referring to at all. SHE CLAIMS THAT MULTICULTURAL HAS FAILED IN GERMANY.

YES!

And if you want the reason why it has failed you can read my earlier posts you retarded piece of shit.

 

[CanOWorms]

YES!

And if you want the reason why it has failed you can read my earlier posts you retarded piece of shit.

And if you want to know why your reasoning is wrong you can read my earlier posts you retarded piece of shit.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Uh...that's not fascism. That's talk about foreign workers taking domestic jobs, which is exactly what is happening here in the U.S.

 

[CanOWorms]

Uh...that's not fascism. That's talk about foreign workers taking domestic jobs, which is exactly what is happening here in the U.S.

No, it's not. Her remarks include multiculturalism and the existence of minority groups within Germany. They're not foreign workers.

 

[CanOWorms]

Statistics on Immigrants (and descendants) in Germany
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/bild-723702-23559.html

Looking at these statistics really shows the level of propaganda in Germany. It's nowhere near a catastrophic level. The immigrants & their descendants even have a higher % of their population completing the requirements for entering university!

Shouldn't the world be concerned about the propaganda used against minority groups in a country known for its history of using propaganda to eliminate minority groups? The UN has already warned the German government for Nazi activities in Germany. Perhaps it should now be escalated with peacekeeping forces to monitor the situation.

I propose that Germany's policies in regards to immigration and minorities, as well as any policy that would have significant impact on those groups, to be managed by an international group. Perhaps the UN Security Council, perhaps an NGO. They will maintain and manage that portion of the German government's bureaucracy.

 

[BeauJangles]

Uh...that's not fascism. That's talk about foreign workers taking domestic jobs, which is exactly what is happening here in the U.S.

Foreign workers they encouraged to come and take the jobs. Now they're upset about it because those people want to stay. The similarities here are the fact that both issues involve people and immigration.

That's not really the issue. Foreigners who have been living in Germany for 8 years (this can be reduced to 7 by attending an "integration course" which is mainly a crash course on language, laws & culture) can naturalize there, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

Now, a little perspective on the issue:......

You've just repeated what has been said here. There isn't new perspective except that you're trying to blame immigrants failure to integrate on them rather on the society that didn't give a crap about them, treated them like dirt, and saw them simply as cogs in their economy.

I would have no problem if Germany had implemented a green card system, but they didn't. As you said, many of these workers lived in Germany for years, raised families, and had children there. It was their home, despite the fact that their home didn't really want them there.

I've been to Germany a bunch, it's a great country, but they are dead wrong in how they treat their immigrants. Why should anybody be surprised that a group that is consistently ostracized from a society would be uninterested in learning the language, unable to do well in schools, and interested in living near other like-minded individuals?

As for the citizenship laws, give me a break. The reforms certainly made it easier to obtain citizenship, but becoming a citizen in Germany isn't easy and the odds are stacked against immigrants.

Truthfully, America can learn a lot of lessons from Germany and France, both in our immigration policies and in our treatment of immigrants once they've arrived.

 

[amyklai]

Foreign workers they encouraged to come and take the jobs. Now they're upset about it because those people want to stay. The similarities here are the fact that both issues involve people and immigration.

You've just repeated what has been said here. There isn't new perspective except that you're trying to blame immigrants failure to integrate on them rather on the society that didn't give a crap about them, treated them like dirt, and saw them simply as cogs in their economy.

I would have no problem if Germany had implemented a green card system, but they didn't. As you said, many of these workers lived in Germany for years, raised families, and had children there. It was their home, despite the fact that their home didn't really want them there.

That's nonsense. It was a greencard system, there was no offer for immigration, it was an offer to work in Germany for a limited time. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter .
The mistake was that when the originally planned return time was up and people were still not ready to realise that the Gastarbeiter program factually become immigration and act accordingly. But that goes to both sides. For example, a lot of immigrants still don't have German citizenship although they could easily get it. They just still consider themselves as Turks, Greeks, Italians, whatever and dont't want to change this. Had this been a planned immigration from the outset, where language requirements and the requirement to take up the new citizenship had existed, many of these problems wouldn't exist.

I've been to Germany a bunch, it's a great country, but they are dead wrong in how they treat their immigrants. Why should anybody be surprised that a group that is consistently ostracized from a society would be uninterested in learning the language, unable to do well in schools, and interested in living near other like-minded individuals?

How have they be ostracized? How have they been unable to live near like-minded individuals? In what way are they treated badly?
I think in a lot of ways, Germany makes it easier for poor families (relatively good social security, almost no cost for attending university).

As for the citizenship laws, give me a break. The reforms certainly made it easier to obtain citizenship, but becoming a citizen in Germany isn't easy and the odds are stacked against immigrants.

How are those laws exceedingly difficult? Stay for 7 years, take a course, pass a language test, bingo.
Today, it's probably not much easier to get into the USA.

 

[WelshBloke]

Yes, it is. It's even the first line of the article that I posted. There is other confirmation as well. For example, Wikipedia states:

"In Germany the isolated term Führer is usually avoided in political meaning, due to its intimate connection with Nazi institutions and Hitler personally."

Wikipedia also says:

"The word Führer in the sense of guide remains common in German"

And given the article was about German problems its conceivable that a certain proportion of respondents meant someone to guide the country.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstipatedVigilante
Uh...that's not fascism. That's talk about foreign workers taking domestic jobs, which is exactly what is happening here in the U.S.

No, it's not. Her remarks include multiculturalism and the existence of minority groups within Germany. They're not foreign workers.

CanOWorms in the article you posted this is what it says -- Angela Merkel declares death of German multiculturalism
Chancellor's remarks, which claimed multiculturalism had 'failed utterly', interpreted as a shift rightwards from previous views

The German leader said it had been an illusion to think that Germans and foreign workers could "live happily side by side.

You need to read the article and understand that JohnOfSheffield is correct as is ConstipatedVigilante!!

You are making this out to be much bigger than what it is!!

The german Chancellor is talking ONLY about foreign workers!! She is NOT talking about workers who have learned the language and have jobs and are a productive part of German Society!
You can post all your supposed facts about how well immigrants are doing in germany, but that proves nothing other than some innigrants do well, while the majority refuse to learn the language and they have no jobs because they refuse to learn the language and they have no interest in joining German society. They wish to start their own society within German Society.

Sad but true-- Merkel is correct!!

 

[amyklai]

CanOWorms in the article you posted this is what it says -- Angela Merkel declares death of German multiculturalism
Chancellor's remarks, which claimed multiculturalism had 'failed utterly', interpreted as a shift rightwards from previous views

The German leader said it had been an illusion to think that Germans and foreign workers could "live happily side by side.

You need to read the article and understand that JohnOfSheffield is correct as is ConstipatedVigilante!!

You are making this out to be much bigger than what it is!!

The german Chancellor is talking ONLY about foreign workers!! She is NOT talking about workers who have learned the language and have jobs and are a productive part of German Society!
You can post all your supposed facts about how well immigrants are doing in germany, but that proves nothing other than some innigrants do well, while the majority refuse to learn the language and they have no jobs because they refuse to learn the language and they have no interest in joining German society. They wish to start their own society within German Society.

Sad but true-- Merkel is correct!!

Some context: in Germany, the parties on the left side of the political spectrum (Die Grünen, SPD and Die Linke) maintain, that a strong integration of immigrants is not necessary, that it's absolutely feasible to have different cultures living happily side by side and that this "multiculturalism" is better, more colorful and more productive than integrating different cultures into the mainstream.
The parties on the right (Merkels's CDU/CSU and to a lesser degree the FDP) claim that there has to be a "Leitkultur" (the mainstream culture) to which immigrants have to adapt to, they want a stronger assimilitation.

So when Merkel says "multiculturalism has failed" it means that in her opinion the left's version of integration (weak assimilation) is the reason why immigrants don't learn the language etc. etc. There's nothing new here, it's just the usual "you're wrong, I'm right" along the usual party lines.

 

[CanOWorms]

Wikipedia also says:

"The word Führer in the sense of guide remains common in German"

And given the article was about German problems its conceivable that a certain proportion of respondents meant someone to guide the country.

You truncated the statement on Wikipedia. It says: "The word Führer in the sense of guide remains common in German, but comes with some stigma and negative connotation when used as the meaning of leader. The word Leiter is therefore used instead."

And in the political context: "In Germany the isolated term Führer is usually avoided in political meaning, due to its intimate connection with Nazi institutions and Hitler personally."

It is quite clear. These people support Nazis. And you're going to great lengths to cover for them.