wtf? Fascism in Germany?

[peonyu]

Germans are entitled to decide who's getting in their country and who doesn't. This has nothing to do with Nazism, it has to do with maintaining national identity and some degree of homogeneous population. It's very easy to judge people from afar, but what would happen if your neighborhood was inhabited by large number of uneducated Muslim Middle Easterns, who have decidedly different values and mentality?

Many of these people aren't immigrating to Germany in order to be Germans. They are just looking for a more accommodating place to continue living their current lives, and this is destructive. This is how you form ghettos and get an uneducated, violent, religious underclass which later goes on to burn down your cities (think of Paris).

I doubt it has much to do with economic conditions, it's squarely directed at the Muslims coming in. You'd be a fool not to see the context here.
If Europe, as a whole, doesn't curb down Muslim immigration there will be severe problems down the line, from both sides.

The problem on this forum is known as "American beer Goggles", trying to paint the world with the same brush as they do America. Except it does not work in alot of cases. Immigration ? Ask alot of Americans and they say anyone should be able to move to America, this is Native American land originally etc. So Americans take that line and apply it to Europe foolishly...Except of course White people are the natives of Europe. Argument fails apart quickly from there.

On the other hand they will bicker and whine about Israeli Jews "stealing" land from Arab-Palestinians by immigrating there. Yet hate Europeans who complain about Arabs who immigrate to Europe. Hypocrisy is in fashion apparently.

 

[peonyu]

I always laugh when I hear people say this, like the acts of Europeans 600 years ago should dictate what we choose to do as a nation and continent today.

The typical excuse for immigration is that. Im just pointing out the excuses used for immigration here and thats the main one used to shutup conversation on it. Doesnt mean I agree with it, we are at 300 million already and cant bring in people forever.

 

[CanOWorms]

Germans are entitled to decide who's getting in their country and who doesn't. This has nothing to do with Nazism, it has to do with maintaining national identity and some degree of homogeneous population. It's very easy to judge people from afar, but what would happen if your neighborhood was inhabited by large number of uneducated Muslim Middle Easterns, who have decidedly different values and mentality?

Nazism has much to do with it. That is what motivates many of these ideas.

Many of these people aren't immigrating to Germany in order to be Germans. They are just looking for a more accommodating place to continue living their current lives, and this is destructive. This is how you form ghettos and get an uneducated, violent, religious underclass which later goes on to burn down your cities (think of Paris).

Many of these people were born in Germany. They are German.

Also, the riots you're speaking about in Paris shows that the people are assimilating. The French have a history of protesting, rioting, and other mass-scale type protests. That is their culture. People partake in it. But because it's a destructive aspect of the French culture it's now foreign?

I doubt it has much to do with economic conditions, it's squarely directed at the Muslims coming in. You'd be a fool not to see the context here.
If Europe, as a whole, doesn't curb down Muslim immigration there will be severe problems down the line, from both sides.

There are severe problems down the line if they don't peacefully let their fertile and productive lands sustain a reasonable population. The domestic population is declining at an astonishing rate. They need immigrants and the world needs a Europe to be productive.

 

[CanOWorms]

America = Built by immigration. So we are hypocrites to deny immigration here.
Europe = Built by its native people.

No, Europe was not built by its native people. Modern Europe, as we know it today, was built upon extraction of wealth from others during the era of colonialism and post-WW2 immigration.

 

[Slew Foot]

But but but.. the libtards tell me Europe is a socialist paradise where everyone smokes bongs together and has free healthcare and farts rainbows. This article must leaked by Faux Noos as part of the Joo-minati conspiracy. Booooosh LIED!!!!!

 

[SamurAchzar]

You can't paint all immigration with the same brush. I'm sure no country would deny an immigration wave of Japanese professors or Swedish engineers. There is a very specific problem, that has accelerated in recent years and that is Muslim immigration. Chinese that got to the US see themselves as American; their second and third generations definitely do so. They integrate, assimilate and become productive citizens (and hot females). This is not the case with the immigration to Europe. You don't go to Europe to become a European and name your child Mohammad - it doesn't work like that.

The question is, for how long a country can tolerate such a demographic cancer, that breeds violence, siphons money and sabotages the core values of the host. Only when you go to Europe, to cities like Marseilles or Brussels and see how these cities have morphed into something decidedly non-European can you realize what a tall order is the EU facing.

For years now I've been predicting that EU politics will go deep into the right, fueled by this problem, and so far I'm spot on. In few terms, those who are considered "extremists" might become mainstream. There is an inherent danger to the stability of the EU bloc, considering open border policies and nationalistic sentiments floating up in such cases. In few years, we'll see a massive reduction in social benefits to immigrants, mass expulsions back into Northern Africa and the ME and much less tolerance towards Muslim, combined with a countering rise of Islam-sponsored violence.

 

[Schadenfroh]

I somehow doubt that Germany is NOT on the path to looking to plunge the world into another war

I do not think that they need to start a war, they are doing fine expanding German influence / power economically and diplomatically without bloodshed.

Many of these people were born in Germany. They are German.

Do they consider themselves German? Some Americans born here do not consider themselves American.

The French have a history of protesting, rioting, and other mass-scale type protests. That is their culture. People partake in it.

No arguments here, The French have been known to do this even when the Germans were knocking on their door in WW1. There was also that French Revolution thing...

 

[Steeplerot]

Just goes to show there are right wing whackjobs everywhere. Having foxnews and talk radio here radicalize our righties is such a great idea. Immigration fear-mongering, dehumanization of liberal elements in society, scapegoating of the university professors, repression of unions.

We have all the elements of the far right's usual path to radicalization lining up perfect.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Nazism has much to do with it. That is what motivates many of these ideas.

What, national socialism? A 2nd rise of German supremacy over the world? Intents to rule Poland again? You have to be pretty patronizing to accuse Germans of Nazism just because they don't want their cities to become Muslim ghettos. Very easy to preach for tolerance where it's far from your doorstep, isn't it?

Many of these people were born in Germany. They are German.

Being born in Germany doesn't make you any more of a German than being born in Milwaukee makes you a Harley.

Surveys show a large part of this population, even on 2nd and 3rd generations (and even maybe especially then) see themselves as part of their original countries more than they see themselves a part of the country they live in (hence the cases of domestic terrorism by naturally born immigrant descendants).

Also, the riots you're speaking about in Paris shows that the people are assimilating. The French have a history of protesting, rioting, and other mass-scale type protests. That is their culture. People partake in it. But because it's a destructive aspect of the French culture it's now foreign?

How cute, romanticizing a mob that attacks policemen and burn neighborhoods. Multi-cultural relativism at its finest. How about KKK burning blacks on crosses south to the Mississippi? Isn't that authentic enough?

There are severe problems down the line if they don't peacefully let their fertile and productive lands sustain a reasonable population. The domestic population is declining at an astonishing rate. They need immigrants and the world needs a Europe to be productive.

There is a problem, but just as taking your foot off to forget your headache is not a good idea, so is replacing your native population with uneducated Muslims. Where does it end, shipping African tribesmen to bolster the dwindling social fabric of central Manhattan?

I'm all for immigration, of a very specific type. Do it in person, not in groups; bring in educated people; diversify (yes, Christians and Jews are good immigrants too, not just Muslims!). Currently, this immigration is a far bigger burden on the country social mechanisms than it is benefiting them.

 

[CanOWorms]

I do not think that they need to start a war, they are doing fine expanding German influence / power economically and diplomatically without bloodshed.

I hope you're right.

Do they consider themselves German? Some Americans born here do not consider themselves American.

Why does it even matter?

Most Christians in the USA consider themselves Christian before American.

 

[Jaskalas]

Do they consider themselves German? Some Americans born here do not consider themselves American.

'Do they consider themselves German?'

Interesting question. Please define it, as I can picture two scenarios originating from it.

Do they consider themselves part of German culture, are they proud of it, and have they adopted it as their identity?
Or...
Do they consider themselves as owning a piece of Germany, regardless of their foreign identity?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Most Christians in the USA consider themselves Christian before American.

Do you have anything supporting this claim? I'm not disagreeing with it, I'm just very surprised if this was true.

 

[CanOWorms]

What, national socialism? A 2nd rise of German supremacy over the world? Intents to rule Poland again? You have to be pretty patronizing to accuse Germans of Nazism just because they don't want their cities to become Muslim ghettos. Very easy to preach for tolerance where it's far from your doorstep, isn't it?

No, I'm accusing Germans of Nazism because polls show them supporting Nazi beliefs. 13% of Germans support the return of the Fuhrer himself! The far-right mentality craziness is increasing every year.

Being born in Germany doesn't make you any more of a German than being born in Milwaukee makes you a Harley.

Germany finally got rid of its ethnicity-based citizenship laws in 2000. So being born in Germany should make most German.

Surveys show a large part of this population, even on 2nd and 3rd generations (and even maybe especially then) see themselves as part of their original countries more than they see themselves a part of the country they live in (hence the cases of domestic terrorism by naturally born immigrant descendants).

So?

Also, German Nazis commit many acts of domestic terrorism.

How cute, romanticizing a mob that attacks policemen and burn neighborhoods. Multi-cultural relativism at its finest. How about KKK burning blacks on crosses south to the Mississippi? Isn't that authentic enough?

I'm not romanticizing it. But their actions show that they have assimilated. The French create mayhem. They do it with pride.

There is a problem, but just as taking your foot off to forget your headache is not a good idea, so is replacing your native population with uneducated Muslims. Where does it end, shipping African tribesmen to bolster the dwindling social fabric of central Manhattan?

Perhaps they should use their social services to benefit minority groups rather than primarily to benefit the majority. Educate your own citizens.

I'm all for immigration, of a very specific type. Do it in person, not in groups; bring in educated people; diversify (yes, Christians and Jews are good immigrants too, not just Muslims!). Currently, this immigration is a far bigger burden on the country social mechanisms than it is benefiting them.

I disagree.

 

[CanOWorms]

Do you have anything supporting this claim? I'm not disagreeing with it, I'm just very surprised if this was true.

Poll: For Christians' identity, it's faith first, U.S. second
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/22/gw.poll/index.html?iref=allsearch

Most Christians are more likely to describe themselves as Christian first and American second, according to a new CNN poll examining religious views in the United States.

The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll found that of the 750 Christians in the survey, 59 percent identify themselves first by their faith, then as Americans, while 36 percent described themselves in the reverse.

What's interesting is that among American Muslims, it's only 47% who consider themselves Muslims first and Americans second. Are they more American than Christians now?

 

[SamurAchzar]

No, I'm accusing Germans of Nazism because polls show them supporting Nazi beliefs. 13% of Germans support the return of the Fuhrer himself! The far-right mentality craziness is increasing every year.

Do you accuse all European Muslims of being terrorists because roughly a third of them (if not more) endorse suicide bombings against Western targets?

Germany finally got rid of its ethnicity-based citizenship laws in 2000. So being born in Germany should make most German.

Depending on your definition of a German. Is a passport enough to make you part of the nation? I know many Jews who, as 3rd generation to holocaust survivors, hold German citizenship (being entitled to such as part of the German amendments towards Jews after WWII). Most never set a foot in Germany, and some will never do so. Are they German too?

Sorry, but you are confusing the technical issue of citizenship with the nationalistic meaning of being a part of a country and culture.

So?

Also, German Nazis commit many acts of domestic terrorism.

SO? So they are not seeing THEMSELVES as Germans. Who are we to decide differently?

I'm not romanticizing it. But their actions show that they have assimilated. The French create mayhem. They do it with pride.

Racial-driven rioting in ghettos where the police is banned from entering has no precedence in the glorious French tradition of anti-establishment protests.

Perhaps they should use their social services to benefit minority groups rather than primarily to benefit the majority. Educate your own citizens.

It's easy being lenient with other people's money when you wouldn't spare food from your family to feed a stranger. The social mechanisms are built to support a 3rd child and few months of unemployment, not 12 children from 3 different wives and not working a single day. This behavior does not seem to scale very well.

I disagree.

With what? What the need to have an immigration policy that benefits both the immigrants and the indigenous population, or the fact that the Muslim immigration doesn't have a positive effect?

 

[CanOWorms]

Do you accuse all European Muslims of being terrorists because roughly a third of them (if not more) endorse suicide bombings against Western targets?

No

Depending on your definition of a German. Is a passport enough to make you part of the nation? I know many Jews who, as 3rd generation to holocaust survivors, hold German citizenship (being entitled to such as part of the German amendments towards Jews after WWII). Most never set a foot in Germany, and some will never do so. Are they German too?

Sure, if they hold German citizenship then they're German.

SO? So they are not seeing THEMSELVES as Germans. Who are we to decide differently?

Perhaps they have a hierarchy of their own identity.

Racial-driven rioting in ghettos where the police is banned from entering has no precedence in the glorious French tradition of anti-establishment protests.

De Gaul himself was prevented from entering certain grounds in France. These acts, though destructive, follow the French model and shows that people are obviously integrated.

It's easy being lenient with other people's money when you wouldn't spare food from your family to feed a stranger. The social mechanisms are built to support a 3rd child and few months of unemployment, not 12 children from 3 different wives and not working a single day. This behavior does not seem to scale very well.

The problem is that the social system in Europe is meant for racial preservation reasons. It's meant to help out the majority, not minority groups. Many Europeans tend to have no problem if the social services go to people who look like themselves.

With what? What the need to have an immigration policy that benefits both the immigrants and the indigenous population, or the fact that the Muslim immigration doesn't have a positive effect?

The second one. Germany and other European countries brought in Muslims to rebuilt their destroyed societies after WW2. It's obvious that they've had a positive effect. There would be no modern Europe without modern immigration there.

 

[SamurAchzar]

No

But you do paint Germans as Nazis because of the wishes of a much smaller group.

Sure, if they hold German citizenship then they're German.

So you can not visit Germany once in your life and still be considered a German because of the technicality of holding a German passport. Interesting :hmm:

Perhaps they have a hierarchy of their own identity.

Perhaps, more likely their origin country/Muslim identity are at odds with the Western identities they refuse to assume.

De Gaul himself was prevented from entering certain grounds in France. These acts, though destructive, follow the French model and shows that people are obviously integrated.

Obviously. I'd be insulted if I were French. I'd be happy to see a French guy spell out what they think of these events in relation to past French traditions, but unfortunately there is no internet in France.

The problem is that the social system in Europe is meant for racial preservation reasons. It's meant to help out the majority, not minority groups. Many Europeans tend to have no problem if the social services go to people who look like themselves.

"Racial preservation"? I wouldn't go so far. It's support of the disabled, disadvantaged and just plain unlucky. By your assertion, there would be racial barriers to enjoy these programs, while in practice the prime beneficiaries are minorities.

The second one. Germany and other European countries brought in Muslims to rebuilt their destroyed societies after WW2. It's obvious that they've had a positive effect. There would be no modern Europe without modern immigration there.

Does this claim have any grasp in reality? Any sources to that?

 

[CanOWorms]

But you do paint Germans as Nazis because of the wishes of a much smaller group.

I said Germans, not all Germans. I also said that Nazism motivates many of these ideas. Not all ideas.

So you can not visit Germany once in your life and still be considered a German because of the technicality of holding a German passport. Interesting :hmm:

If they have citizenship then they're German.

Perhaps, more likely their origin country/Muslim identity are at odds with the Western identities they refuse to assume.

Maybe it's your belief of identity that portrays them as refusing to assume.

Obviously. I'd be insulted if I were French. I'd be happy to see a French guy spell out what they think of these events in relation to past French traditions, but unfortunately there is no internet in France.

Just do some research on their political and social history. You'll see that they are following in the French tradition.

"Racial preservation"? I wouldn't go so far. It's support of the disabled, disadvantaged and just plain unlucky. By your assertion, there would be racial barriers to enjoy these programs, while in practice the prime beneficiaries are minorities.

It's support of the disabled, disadvantaged, and just plain unlucky of the majority race. When minorities start using the services then all hell breaks loose.

Does this claim have any grasp in reality? Any sources to that?

Of course it has grasp in reality. Germany was destroyed in WW2. Denying it is almost a Nazi-like belief in the supremacy of the German people. You really think that they rebuilt by themselves after all that destruction and death? Germany had a very extensive guest worker program after WW2 to fuel its economic boom. Why do you think Germany has a large Turkish minority? It's what the Germans call Gastarbeiter.

 

[techs]

Jews in Germany before the rise of Hitler were completely assimilated. They fought heroicly in WW1 despite being discriminated against by the army.
Fritz Haber, the developer of poison gas was a Jew who was fanatically pro-German.

Yet, the Nazis didn't make any distinction.

The real lesson from Germany is that people you invite into your country as "temporary workers" do not assimilate.
The real lesson from the US is people who immigrate to live permanently in a country almost all do assimilate.

 

[disappoint]

13% of Germans want the return of Adolf Hitler. I somehow doubt that Germany is NOT on the path to looking to plunge the world into another war or commit a genocide.

They are entitled to negative opinions, but given their history it is extremely dangerous. How many times will we need to repeat catastrophe in Europe?

In addition, we need to remember that many of the 9/11 hijackers were radicalized in Germany. Germany's cruel policies and far-right extremism creates terrorists who kill thousands of Americans.

lol

Harris online poll: 14% of Americans believe Barack Obama is the Antichrist.
source: http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-09-29/news/white-america-has-lost-its-mind/

Today, Newsweek has found, nearly a quarter of Americans believe that Obama is a Muslim, with barely 42 percent of the nation accepting his claim that he's a Christian. CNN finds that a quarter of Americans also believe that Obama was "probably or definitely" born in another country.


Harris found in an online poll that 14 percent of Americans believe in their hearts that President Barack Obama is the antichrist, with nearly a quarter of Republicans saying so.

Physician: Heal thyself.
Americans are constantly looking to solve everyone else's problems, while ignoring the domestic disaster at home.

 

[CanOWorms]

lol

Harris online poll: 14% of Americans believe Barack Obama is the Antichrist.
source: http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-09-29/news/white-america-has-lost-its-mind/



Physician: Heal thyself.
Americans are constantly looking to solve everyone else's problems, while ignoring the domestic disaster at home.

Sorry, I don't understand the relevance of what you posted.

Also, European policies create disasters at home in the United States.

 

[Jaskalas]

The real lesson from the US is people who immigrate to live permanently in a country almost all do assimilate.

Not counting modern day, where we have 10s of millions of illegals.

 

[CanOWorms]

Not counting modern day, where we have 10s of millions of illegals.

Nowadays it seems that many illegal immigrants assimilate into the USA better than people born here with long family lineages in this country.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Sorry, I don't understand the relevance of what you posted.

Also, European policies create disasters at home in the United States.

The relevance is that it's reasonable to assume that within any population group, about 10%-15% of the population is deranged.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Surveys show a large part of this population, even on 2nd and 3rd generations (and even maybe especially then) see themselves as part of their original countries more than they see themselves a part of the country they live in (hence the cases of domestic terrorism by naturally born immigrant descendants).

This is because, up until recently, German law did not give them the option. Until recently, you could have been born in Germany, had parents that were born in Germany, speak the language fluently, and still have no path to German citizenship. Under Chancellor Schroeder, significant immigration reforms were made to finally give such individuals a path to German citizenship.

Before these reforms, you basically had to have "blood ties" (Jus sanguinis) to Germany or had to be 1) Jewish/a victim of the Holocaust or 2) declare political asylum.

Those that want to become a German citizen must now fulfill the following requirements:

• Live in Germany legally for at least eight years
• Not live on welfare as the main source of income (this must be the case unless the person can prove that they cannot work, for example because they are a single mother with small children)
• Be able to speak German
• Pass a test with questions such as "Why is it necessary that homeschooling is not allowed in Germany (gesetzliche Schulpflicht)?", "How can a person get a divorce in Germany? Who is allowed to get a divorce?", "Do you agree to the following Statement: a woman should not be allowed to be seen in public or to travel without the supervision of a male relative?", and "Which is a German basic right: a) the right to bear arms, b) the rule of force, c) freedom of opinion, d) vigilantism." This test must be passed unless the applicant can prove that he is not able to learn the necessary facts, because of an illness, a disablement or old age.
• Not have committed a felony
• Swear to commit to democracy and the German constitution
• Give up the citizenship of other countries

I have spoken with many Turks in Germany (their largest minority) and most have a problem with this last point. They are not willing to give up their Turkish citizenship.