wtf? Fascism in Germany?

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-germany-multiculturalism-failures

Angela Merkel declares death of German multiculturalism
Chancellor's remarks, which claimed multiculturalism had 'failed utterly', interpreted as a shift rightwards from previous views

The German leader said it had been an illusion to think that Germans and foreign workers could "live happily side by side.

"We kidded ourselves for a while that they wouldn't stay, but that's not the reality," she said at a conference of the youth wing of her Christian Democratic Union party at the weekend, referring to the gastarbeiters, or guest workers, who arrived in Germany to fill a labour shortage during the economic boom of the 1960s.

Sharing the same podium as Merkel in Potsdam, Seehofer also said "multi-culturalism is dead" and that both the rightwing parties were committed to a "dominant German culture".




Somewhere in Hell a mustachioed former German Fuehrer is smiling.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
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This sounds like a legal immigration debate. Looks like they are using a cultural argument instead of a "they took our jobs!" argument.

industrialists have called on the government to remove obstacles stopping more skilled workers entering Germany
Seehofer:
If Germany did not revise its immigration policies, he said, it was in danger of becoming "the world's welfare office".

Now this sounds more like old school racial-superiority:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69F1K320101016
Thilo Sarrazin published a book accusing Muslim immigrants of lowering the intelligence of German society
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
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Immigration issue. Countries that welcomed immigrants with open arms and are quick to place em on the public dole will eventually feel the pain.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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This is much more than a simple immigration issue.

I was going to start a new thread on the following article, but it's related to this. Basically, 13% of Germans would welcome back Hitler and 17% think that Jews have too much influence in Germany.

Why 13 percent of Germans would welcome a 'Führer'
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/1015/Why-13-percent-of-Germans-would-welcome-a-Fuehrer

Why 13 percent of Germans would welcome a 'Führer'

A new survey signals that Germany, where the term 'Führer,' or leader, is explicitly linked to Adolf Hitler, is not immune from the far-right sentiments that are spreading across Europe.

By Robert Marquand, Staff Writer
posted October 15, 2010 at 4:10 pm EDT
Paris —

A new survey in Germany shows that 13 percent of its citizens would welcome a “Führer” – a German word for leader that is explicitly associated with Adolf Hitler – to run the country “with a firm hand.”

The findings signal that Europe’s largest nation, freed from cold-war strictures, is not immune from the extreme and often right-wing politics on the rise around the Continent.

The study, released Oct. 13 by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, affiliated with the center-left Social Democratic Party, revealed among other things that more than a third of Germans feel the country is “overrun by foreigners,” some 60 percent would “restrict the practice of Islam,” and 17 percent think Jews have “too much influence.”

The study's overall snapshot of German society shows new forms of extremism and hate are no longer the province of far-right cohorts who shave their heads or wear leather jackets adorned with silver skulls – but register in the tweedy political center, on the right and the left. Indeed, the study found, extremism in Germany isn’t a fringe phenomenon but is found in the political center, "in all social groups and in all age groups, regardless of employment status, educational level or gender."

Far-right parties gain power across Europe

The year 2010 is marking a clear shift toward extremist politics across Europe, analysts say. An uncertain economy, a gap between elites and ordinary Europeans, and fraying of a traditional sense of national identity has just in the past month brought more hard-line politics and speech, often aimed at Islam or immigrants – into a political mainstream where it had been absent or considered taboo.

On Oct. 10, the city of Vienna, a cosmopolitan and socialist stronghold since World War II, voted the far-right Freedom Party into a ruling coalition. The party, which ran on an “anti-minaret” platform in a city with only one mosque, was formerly associated with nationalist Jorg Haider, but has been reinvented by an animated former dental hygienist, Heinz-Christian Strache.

On Sept. 19, Sweden, long a Scandinavian redoubt of social tolerance and openness, put the far-right Sweden Democrats into parliament for the first time.

Further, this week the Netherlands saw the rise to influence, if not power, of the anti-Islam party of Geert Wilders, a social liberal who argues for gay rights – but whose main platform is to ban the Quran and the practice of Islam in the Low Countries. Mr. Wilders' party will formally participate in the Dutch ruling coalition without specifically joining it.

This new governing architecture – extreme parties that indirectly join a ruling coalition – is now found in Denmark, where the government must rely on the far-right People’s Party to operate. As author Ian Buruma notes, this form of government gives extreme parties “power without responsibility.”
Growing divide over immigrants' place

To be sure, German politics, which outlaws extremist parties, has no corollary to events taking place in the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, or Switzerland.

Yet xenophobic rhetoric has crept in. Germany is currently enswathed in debate over comments by Horst Seehofer, president of the Bavarian Christian-Social Union, who stated days ago, “It is clear that immigrants from other cultures such as Turkey and Arabic countries have more difficulties. From that I draw the conclusion that we don’t need additional immigration from other cultures.” The CSU is a sister party of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democrats.

Mr. Seehofer’s comments are seen as responding to German president Christian Wulff on Oct. 3, German Unity Day, in which he called for a second German unification that would more fully integrate those of immigrant background; he said that “Islam also is part of Germany.”

President Wulff’s statement followed a month of furor over a new book by leftist German central banker Thilo Sarrazin, “Germany Abolishes Itself,” positing that immigrants from Turkey and Arab states are lowering German intelligence quotients due to high birth rates and less education, and “have no productive function except in the fruit and vegetable trade.”

Mr. Sarrazin’s analysis and statistics have been roundly denunciated, and he has resigned his federal banker’s post – but his book quickly sold 1.5 million copies.

Why extreme-right views are coming to the surface

The Friedrich Ebert Foundation study that came out this week is based on 2,411 respondents and was conducted in April, prior to the recent emotional immigration debate sparked by Sarrazin, Seehofer, and Wulff.

The rise of racism and intolerance argued in the study contrasts with similar foundation studies, prior to the economic crisis in Europe, showing a decrease in racism or xenophobia. However, today nearly a third of Germans polled would consider a policy repatriating immigrants if the job market suffers further.

The authors of the study urge fellow Germans not to “underestimate” right-wing sentiment.

Oliver Decker, one of the study's authors, says the findings indicate a new popular willingness to express hardcore opinions.

“In the past the base for extreme-right views in Germany, though present, was more latent in nature. Now these views are being expressed more frequently,” Mr. Decker says. “The economic crisis seems to have allowed aggression come to the surface. Among those looking for a valve, foreigners in general and Muslims in particular fill that role.”
The far-right has become the political norm in Europe for years now. People on this forum have been saying that they're irrelevant for years now. Look where we are now.
 
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JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
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Socialism and multiculturalism is fail. It only works in homogenic societies.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Sharing the same podium as Merkel in Potsdam, Seehofer also said "multi-culturalism is dead" and that both the rightwing parties were committed to a "dominant German culture".
Wonder how they plan to do that?

The Europeans, like us, are beholden to a form of slave labor with their underclass of immigrants. While their leaders might decry the tragic results, they will be powerless to stop it. Quick, shut the barn door! Decades later... are we supposed to take their notion of self preservation seriously?
 
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techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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What is fascinating is that this is happening at a time the German economy is going great. They overtook the US and are now the second largest exporter in the world.

Well, as I have pointed out in my previous threads, Fascism is coming back big time.
In the US its wrapped in an American flag this time.
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
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They are not entitled to promoting a genocide and prompting the world into yet another World War.



So they are not entitled to voice negative opinions about foreign guest workers? I somehow doubt germany is looking to plunge the world into another world war or commit genocide.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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btw isn't this the Guest Worker Program the Republicans have been pushing?

I guess its true. When you let in guest workers and treat them like second class citizens the don't assimilate.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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It's Europe. We all know everything about Europe is better. They have universal health care. What's a bit of fascism when they have universal health care. Did you know they have universal health care in Europe? It's a paradise. Because they have universal health care.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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What is fascinating is that this is happening at a time the German economy is going great. They overtook the US and are now the second largest exporter in the world.

I wouldn't say the German economy is going great. They've had double digit unemployment for at least a decade, if not more. Integration (w/ the former GDR) has sucked a lot of money out and 20 years later, things are still not close to being equal between the former East and West Germany.

Germans have the right to form their own immigration policies. I find it very unfortunate that the German chancellor would go off on immigrants not integrating to German societ. A large part of the fail of integration has to do with the fact that they (German society) aren't friendly to people who are different than them. They aren't founded on immigration and they don't have experience with it, i.e. people sticking to fellow immigrants.

I don't agree with political correctness but in Germany, they (the media) openly makes fun of people who are different. You wouldn't see such a thing in the US without getting chewed out by others. You can befriend Germans on a personal level but as a society, they are somewhat hostile to immigration.

Meanwhile, Germany has a very low birthrate due to liberalized ideals on family. They can't really survive without immigration. They want high-tech workers to boost their economy also. Basically I think they want their cake and eat it too.

It's great to be a guest in Germany, they'll treat you well. I enjoyed my time spent there but I would never live there permanently. You'd never really become "one of them" unless you are German, IMHO.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Well, as I have pointed out in my previous threads, Fascism is coming back big time.

You confuse self preservation with fascism. I hope you can see why this would make some of us quite upset. Though I do appreciate how similar and often intermingled and maligned they may be.

It may very well transition into something sinister, particularly with a strong State, but you make no effort to delineate between the tragedy of an underclass of mass immigrants and what you have thrown out as Nazi Germany.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,847
10,161
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btw isn't this the Guest Worker Program the Republicans have been pushing?

I guess its true. When you let in guest workers and treat them like second class citizens the don't assimilate.

In our particular case, when you let in the better part of 50 million, where entire counties of the state of California are illegal and bear no semblance of the American language or culture, then yes - they do not assimilate.

We we force our people to speak Spanish, instead of forcing theirs to speak English, they don't assimilate.

Europe's problems parallel ours, but we've a far greater number to assimilate and we take NO measure to do so.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
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So they are not entitled to voice negative opinions about foreign guest workers? I somehow doubt germany is looking to plunge the world into another world war or commit genocide.

13% of Germans want the return of Adolf Hitler. I somehow doubt that Germany is NOT on the path to looking to plunge the world into another war or commit a genocide.

They are entitled to negative opinions, but given their history it is extremely dangerous. How many times will we need to repeat catastrophe in Europe?

In addition, we need to remember that many of the 9/11 hijackers were radicalized in Germany. Germany's cruel policies and far-right extremism creates terrorists who kill thousands of Americans.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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Germans are entitled to decide who's getting in their country and who doesn't. This has nothing to do with Nazism, it has to do with maintaining national identity and some degree of homogeneous population. It's very easy to judge people from afar, but what would happen if your neighborhood was inhabited by large number of uneducated Muslim Middle Easterns, who have decidedly different values and mentality?

Many of these people aren't immigrating to Germany in order to be Germans. They are just looking for a more accommodating place to continue living their current lives, and this is destructive. This is how you form ghettos and get an uneducated, violent, religious underclass which later goes on to burn down your cities (think of Paris).

I doubt it has much to do with economic conditions, it's squarely directed at the Muslims coming in. You'd be a fool not to see the context here.
If Europe, as a whole, doesn't curb down Muslim immigration there will be severe problems down the line, from both sides.
 

Vic Vega

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2010
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13% of Germans want the return of Adolf Hitler. I somehow doubt that Germany is NOT on the path to looking to plunge the world into another war or commit a genocide.

They are entitled to negative opinions, but given their history it is extremely dangerous. How many times will we need to repeat catastrophe in Europe?

In addition, we need to remember that many of the 9/11 hijackers were radicalized in Germany. Germany's cruel policies and far-right extremism creates terrorists who kill thousands of Americans.

lol
 

Vic Vega

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2010
4,535
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Germans are entitled to decide who's getting in their country and who doesn't. This has nothing to do with Nazism, it has to do with maintaining national identity and some degree of homogeneous population. It's very easy to judge people from afar, but what would happen if your neighborhood was inhabited by large number of uneducated Muslim Middle Easterns, who have decidedly different values and mentality?

Many of these people aren't immigrating to Germany in order to be Germans. They are just looking for a more accommodating place to continue living their current lives, and this is destructive. This is how you form ghettos and get an uneducated, violent, religious underclass which later goes on to burn down your cities (think of Paris).

I doubt it has much to do with economic conditions, it's squarely directed at the Muslims coming in. You'd be a fool not to see the context here.
If Europe, as a whole, doesn't curb down Muslim immigration there will be severe problems down the line, from both sides.

Finally, a logical and rational opinion which isn't riding on emotion or partisan hate. Well stated.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
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Meanwhile on the other side of the planet, the Japanese are snickering and saying "told you so!". The Japanese were asked to welcome in millions of foreigners in the 60's and 70's to [for economic reasons as usual] but they declined and wanted to see how the experiment works out for Europe first.

I really doubt the Japanese think they made the wrong move now. I know alot of people look at immigration to Europe through an American viewpoint, but its not the same at all. The key difference as far as immigration goes is a simple one.

America = Built by immigration. So we are hypocrites to deny immigration here.
Europe = Built by its native people. just as the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Africans etc can deny immigration to their lands the Europeans should be allowed to aswell, or bicker about it if the immigrants are not adapting to their culture [which is Europe's immigrant issue].

And btw, its common to hear people on this and other forums when discussing US immigration say - "well this land is *really* the Native-Americans land so they should have the final say on immigration"...In Europe's case, the natives are the majority and apparently they are saying they dont want immigration.
 

Vic Vega

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2010
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America = Built by immigration. So we are hypocrites to deny immigration here.

I always laugh when I hear people say this, like the acts of Europeans 600 years ago should dictate what we choose to do as a nation and continent today.