Woz calls out apple for being arrogant with screen size!

[Chiropteran]

My original statement was about the SOC being thermally constrained not the battery.

I don't really care about the technicalities, either way my basic premise is true: you can't generally take the same phone hardware and stuff it into a smaller space without cutting a corner somewhere. You can blame the battery or the SOC, same difference to me.

 

[WelshBloke]

I don't really care about the technicalities, either way my basic premise is true: you can't generally take the same phone hardware and stuff it into a smaller space without cutting a corner somewhere. You can blame the battery or the SOC, same difference to me.

You haven't shown that it's anything to do with the size of the device though.

 

[WelshBloke]

You just blamed the throttling on the N4's battery I am just asking you why would the N4 specifically be having this problem. Is it because there is something different about the battery compared to S3 or Galaxy Nexus?

I didn't blame the battery. I remember the iPhone (4 I think) being in the media for overheating easily. There's nothing special about the N4 battery. They shut down/go into limp mode in case there's a problem that's causing a battery problem. You don't want a high capacity smartphone battery going pop in your pocket.

Absolutely, the original claim was that smartphone SoC don't produce enough heat to make a difference when obviously they do since some phones have to throttle to get the device temperature under control.

Its not the SOC making enough heat to shutdown, chips are happy into the high 90s C, it's the power draw heating the battery.

 

[Chiropteran]

You haven't shown that it's anything to do with the size of the device though.

It's difficult to prove because no manufacturer is foolish enough to actually stuff too much phone into too small of a case.

However, there is plenty of evidence that it is true- available larger devices have more powerful CPU than available smaller devices, everything else being equal. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

Its not the SOC making enough heat to shutdown, chips are happy into the high 90s C, it's the power draw heating the battery.

Why are you trying to argue in this direction? It's like saying that AMD FX CPU don't use any electricity unless they can draw it through a power supply. Yes, cellphones get power from batteries, and in using that power they produce heat. I don't think anyone in this or any thread is trying to argue that an SOC produces heat when it isn't receiving electricity.

 

[WelshBloke]

It's difficult to prove because no manufacturer is foolish enough to actually stuff too much phone into too small of a case.

However, there is plenty of evidence that it is true- available larger devices have more powerful CPU than available smaller devices, everything else being equal. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

You're the one saying that the SOC is more thermally constrained in a smaller phone. I'm saying that you haven't proved that. Its you that needs to support your claim not me.

Why are you trying to argue in this direction? It's like saying that AMD FX CPU don't use any electricity unless they can draw it through a power supply. Yes, cellphones get power from batteries, and in using that power they produce heat. I don't think anyone in this or any thread is trying to argue that an SOC produces heat when it isn't receiving electricity.

What I'm saying is that the phone may be downclocking because the battery is getting too hot not the SOC. And I dont see how that has anything to do with the size of the phone.

 

[Chiropteran]

You're the one saying that the SOC is more thermally constrained in a smaller phone. I'm saying that you haven't proved that. Its you that needs to support your claim not me.

Do you need proof of the basic laws of physics? When you have equal heat production in systems of different sizes, the smaller one will heat up faster.

What I'm saying is that the phone may be downclocking because the battery is getting too hot not the SOC. And I dont see how that has anything to do with the size of the phone.

See above. The heat, produced by a battery or an SOC or anything else all exists within the phone. The larger the phone the more that heat can disperse. See ivy bridge based CPU, which generally ran hotter than the previous Intel generation even though it used less power, because the smaller process concentrated the heat into a smaller area.

* Also, the heat produced by the battery is based on the energy it is outputting. Faster processor requires more energy. Thus it's directly related to the phone's processor.

 

[WelshBloke]

Do you need proof of the basic laws of physics? When you have equal heat production in systems of different sizes, the smaller one will heat up faster.

Have you looked inside a phone? They aren't full of large air spaces regardless of the size of the phone. Please could you point out the specific things that are going to stop you putting a faster SOC in a smaller phone.

See above. The heat, produced by a battery or an SOC or anything else all exists within the phone. The larger the phone the more that heat can disperse. See ivy bridge based CPU, which generally ran hotter than the previous Intel generation even though it used less power, because the smaller process concentrated the heat into a smaller area.

* Also, the heat produced by the battery is based on the energy it is outputting. Faster processor requires more energy. Thus it's directly related to the phone's processor.

Or it could just be a bug causing the phone to constantly draw too much energy from the battery.

This disagreement was about putting a fast SOC that exists in a larger phone in a smaller one. I've seen nothing that you have posted that suggests that this is impossible. One phone running on unfinished firmware that has shown a problem at one review site does not support your argument.

 

[Kaido]

This time I think Woz is totally off base. IMO the sweet spot is somewhere between 4" and 4.3". That's the prime market, and Apple has smartly chosen to attack that market first. And they're selling a bazillion of them, because people want them.

If anything, it's the Android makers who are going down the wrong path, only making giant flagship phones, and saddling the 4" phones with 2nd tier specs. I don't know if that is arrogant, but it certainly is irritating. Most people don't want giant geek phones like the Galaxy S III. I had hopes for the Galaxy S III mini, but it has turned out to be a major disappointment.

I dunno, I used to side with Apple on this, but everywhere I go I see people with giant Android phones using them without any issues. I don't think most people care that you might have to use 2 hands to operate the phone - the larger screen is easier to read and more fun to use. Even the cheapo/freebie Pantech Droid phones are getting pretty large these days.

Plus, a lot of people have big hands. I'm much more comfortable on a larger screen than a small screen because I have large hands; the iPhone 5 actually gave me hand cramps because of the increased vertical reach with my thumb. I'm back on my 4S and have an easier time using it 1-handed, as well as an easier time slipping it into my pants pocket or shirt pocket, but I certainly wouldn't say no to a 5" iPhone!

 

[Chiropteran]

Have you looked inside a phone? They aren't full of large air spaces regardless of the size of the phone. Please could you point out the specific things that are going to stop you putting a faster SOC in a smaller phone.

You don't need to look inside a phone. I really can't believe you don't understand this, but I'll go ahead and break it down.

You have a phone with 100 units of "stuff" inside it. It's a larger phone, and it works.

Now you have a smaller phone, 20% smaller, but it still has those same 100 units of "stuff" in it. How do you think you fit the same amount of stuff in less space?

It's all packed tighter and closer together. There is no other way to do it, stuff takes up space and you can't just ignore this law of nature to suit your argument, sorry.

Basically, there are two possible scenarios- 1- the larger phone has a little extra space, which helps with handling heating and such, or 2- the larger phone has exactly as much space as it needs, which means it is physically impossible to fit all of it's parts into a smaller phone, no matter how hard you try. Either possibility supports my argument, so I don't really care which one you pick.

 

[Super56K]

I spoke with an older brother about current phones last weekend. He made the comment that he might get a Note II when the subsidized price drops. His reasoning was that more and more his phone was his main computer; like the old adage about the best camera being the one you have with you. His main usage aside from texting and web browsing are eBay and Craigslist. He liked the idea of a giant 'phone' with a stylus.

 

[WelshBloke]

You don't need to look inside a phone. I really can't believe you don't understand this, but I'll go ahead and break it down.

You have a phone with 100 units of "stuff" inside it. It's a larger phone, and it works.

Now you have a smaller phone, 20% smaller, but it still has those same 100 units of "stuff" in it. How do you think you fit the same amount of stuff in less space?

It's all packed tighter and closer together. There is no other way to do it, stuff takes up space and you can't just ignore this law of nature to suit your argument, sorry.

Basically, there are two possible scenarios- 1- the larger phone has a little extra space, which helps with handling heating and such, or 2- the larger phone has exactly as much space as it needs, which means it is physically impossible to fit all of it's parts into a smaller phone, no matter how hard you try. Either possibility supports my argument, so I don't really care which one you pick.

Lol you really need to look inside some phones if you think there's loads of air space inside large phones.

Also as we are talking about the SOC all your mysterious "stuff" is irrelevant unless you think the faster SOC needs more "stuff" as well.

 

[dguy6789]

snip

Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that because smaller phones tend to have lesser specs than larger phones that they must have lesser specs. This is a poor foundation for an argument. See iPhone 5, Razr i, Razr M for examples of very small phones with very high end specs.

It's been said many times I don't know why it needs to be repeated: Manufacturers make a line of phones, some high end some low end. People associate how good a phone is with how large the screen is. Manufacturers tend to only make their high end phones on the large size for the aforementioned marketing reason. Manufacturers don't fill out a small phone with all of the greatest specs because they do not make flagship small phones. They don't make small flagship phones because large flagship phones sell better. They make small smartphones as cheaply as possible(smaller screen size and lesser specs being a good way to produce a device at lower cost) to be able to still make money off people who do not wish to pay what it costs to buy a flagship phone. This is not rocket science.

 

[badb0y]

You guys are free believe what you want but just know that for you to be right physics has to be wrong lol.

 

[WelshBloke]

You guys are free believe what you want but just know that for you to be right physics has to be wrong lol.

Feel free to explain your point any time you like.

 

[badb0y]

Feel free to explain your point any time you like.

Already have multiple times now. If you take the internals of "A" and squeeze it into something smaller, "B," the temperature of "B" will be higher than "A" even though they produce the same amount of heat.

 

[WelshBloke]

Already have multiple times now. If you take the internals of "A" and squeeze it into something smaller, "B," the temperature of "B" will be higher than "A" even though they produce the same amount of heat.

Well that highly technical and detailed explanation with its superb examples from modern smartphone design has got me convinced.

/sarcasm

 

[badb0y]

Well that highly technical and detailed explanation with its superb examples from modern smartphone design has got me convinced.

/sarcasm

Man, your just really being daft now. Smartphones are not some alien technology they have the same limitations as any other computer device as soon as you can accept this the faster you will understand the explanation. Why are you trying to argue against a scientific theory? Are you an wizard?

 

[WelshBloke]

Man, your just really being daft now. Smartphones are not some alien technology they have the same limitations as any other computer device as soon as you can accept this the faster you will understand the explanation. Why are you trying to argue against a scientific theory? Are you an wizard?

Ok explain what more "stuff" is inside the bigger phones and what scientific theories pertain to that.

 

[ControlD]

Already have multiple times now. If you take the internals of "A" and squeeze it into something smaller, "B," the temperature of "B" will be higher than "A" even though they produce the same amount of heat.

But this is all besides the point isn't it? The question isn't will a smaller phone run hotter, but rather will a smaller phone run too hot? I can run an i7 in a full sized ATX tower case or I can run that same system in a micro ATX case. Everything will be a little warmer inside the smaller case but both still run at acceptable temperature levels for the equipment. I have yet to see anyone prove one way or the other that the same SOC in a big and small phone will push the temperature of the small phone over acceptable levels.

 

[Chiropteran]

Lol you really need to look inside some phones if you think there's loads of air space inside large phones.

Also as we are talking about the SOC all your mysterious "stuff" is irrelevant unless you think the faster SOC needs more "stuff" as well.

So you stance is that scenario 2 is correct- large phones don't have any extra space, so it would be physically impossible to squeeze them into the smaller case of a small phone. Now you understand why smaller phones don't have the same specs, finally.

Also, the "stuff" isn't irrelevant at all. The "stuff" is everything needed to make the phone a phone. Cellular radio, antennae, battery, external connection interfaces, memory, flash storage, etc. The SOC needs that stuff, yes indeed. And in some cases, faster SOC needs "more", for example if you want to have the same overall battery life and you are switching to a faster but more power-hungry SOC, you need to increase the battery too.

But this is all besides the point isn't it? The question isn't will a smaller phone run hotter, but rather will a smaller phone run too hot?

...which brings us to the whole reason this thread was revived. The Nexus 4 was overheating in Anandtech's first round of tests. I think that is indisputable proof that, at least in some situations, modern cellphones can produce heat.

Phones are supposed to work in pretty crazy conditions sometimes, sitting in a car in a sunny day with no AC on for example, so I believe the manufacturers tend to play it safe and leave a large margin of error. So you probably could fit a full-size phone into a smaller case and get it working, but you wouldn't have the same safety margin.

 

[dguy6789]

Already have multiple times now. If you take the internals of "A" and squeeze it into something smaller, "B," the temperature of "B" will be higher than "A" even though they produce the same amount of heat.

You're making the assumption that we're at the point where the thermal limitations have been met. A few small but powerful phones existing plus small phones being overclockable to high end phone performance levels while still being completely stable proves that we're not at a point where going from a GS3 size phone to a smaller phone requires the device to be less powerful because of physics.

It blows my mind how people continue to say something is impossible/doesn't exist even when shown it does... This whole conversation shouldn't be happening because small phones as powerful as the GS3 exist and phones more powerful than the GS3 that are the same size as the GS3 also exist. Geez...

 

[Chiropteran]

It blows my mind how people continue to say something is impossible/doesn't exist even when shown it does...

Yep, like when people claim you can shrink a computer down to an arbitrary size without increasing cost or cutting down specs.

 

[ControlD]

...which brings us to the whole reason this thread was revived. The Nexus 4 was overheating in Anandtech's first round of tests. I think that is indisputable proof that, at least in some situations, modern cellphones can produce heat.

Phones are supposed to work in pretty crazy conditions sometimes, sitting in a car in a sunny day with no AC on for example, so I believe the manufacturers tend to play it safe and leave a large margin of error. So you probably could fit a full-size phone into a smaller case and get it working, but you wouldn't have the same safety margin.

Basically you would have an iPhone then right? A full sized phone's internals packed into a smaller than average form factor.

 

[Chiropteran]

Basically you would have an iPhone then right? A full sized phone's internals packed into a smaller than average form factor.

As I said in the other thread, I don't think it's any coincidence that Apple switched from a glass back to Aluminum when upgrading to the faster CPU in the iPhone 5. In addition, the iPhone 5 is larger than the iPhone 4. So, to turn things around, if you try to pack the iPhone into it's smaller form (iPhone 4s), you need to reduce the CPU compared to what they put in the iPhone 5.

I'm assuming that isn't what you had in mind, you were probably trying to compare the iPhone 5 to an Android phone such as the Galaxy S3. The problem is you can't do an apples to apples comparison because the OS is different. For example, the iPhone5 actually has a very tiny and weak battery compared to the Galaxy S3, but because iOS is apparently more efficient it still gets reasonable battery life. In addition to that you give up a few features- no SD card slot, non-removable battery, etc.

 

[ControlD]

As I said in the other thread, I don't think it's any coincidence that Apple switched from a glass back to Aluminum when upgrading to the faster CPU in the iPhone 5. In addition, the iPhone 5 is larger than the iPhone 4. So, to turn things around, if you try to pack the iPhone into it's smaller form (iPhone 4s), you need to reduce the CPU compared to what they put in the iPhone 5.

I'm assuming that isn't what you had in mind, you were probably trying to compare the iPhone 5 to an Android phone such as the Galaxy S3. The problem is you can't do an apples to apples comparison because the OS is different. For example, the iPhone5 actually has a very tiny and weak battery compared to the Galaxy S3, but because iOS is apparently more efficient it still gets reasonable battery life. In addition to that you give up a few features- no SD card slot, non-removable battery, etc.

That could very well be true in regards to the aluminum back. I was more wondering if that is why my 4S has a habit of overheating and shutting down if I am using GPS on sunny days. Maybe the package is too small for the internals.