Worst Experience ever at Circuit City

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achiral

Senior member
Apr 10, 2000
397
0
0
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got lucky i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got luck i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

hahah he was being a good customer?? Being being totally asinine and trying to get a deal he shouldn't? Why shouldn't there be a difference? There IS a difference. The deal is on the gamecube, not the gamecube package. Its one thing that lacrosseboy got the deal, but then to have the nerve to say HE was wronged? Please.
 

WHSLacrossekid

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2001
6,330
0
0
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got luck i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

hahah he was being a good customer?? Being being totally asinine and trying to get a deal he shouldn't? Why shouldn't there be a difference? There IS a difference. The deal is on the gamecube, not the gamecube package. Its one thing that lacrosseboy got the deal, but then to have the nerve to say HE was wronged? Please.

Consumer and Customer are also different things "Mr. GOD"
 

SOSTrooper

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2001
2,552
0
76
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got lucky i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

Thats almost as sorry as saying I haggled a new BMW 325 down to $20,000 and whined about on this forum saying sales was being a total ass saying I have attitude problem and then I'm told I'm a good customer. LMFAO.
 

achiral

Senior member
Apr 10, 2000
397
0
0
consumer jackass, not customer, and yes there is a difference. i got this deal tonight...TONIGHT (free Metroid with purchase of Mario Bundle) at best buy no questions asked...why didn't they have a problem with it? don't tell me they are stupid, i know that already, but we both know they just read off of a screen. so what is the deal? why would best buy be allowing the free game with the mario bundle and circuit city not? because circuit city sucks nuts and couldn't keep a customer to save their lives
 

Pepsi90919

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,162
1
81
Originally posted by: Deeko
I'm thinking of a song....oh man how's it go....

Cry me a river. girl.

a) did you cover that song, and is it going to be on your newest smash hit CD?

b) if he replaced 'circuit city' with 'wal-mart' would you still care? NO? KTHXBYE
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Originally posted by: WHSLacrossekid
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got luck i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

hahah he was being a good customer?? Being being totally asinine and trying to get a deal he shouldn't? Why shouldn't there be a difference? There IS a difference. The deal is on the gamecube, not the gamecube package. Its one thing that lacrosseboy got the deal, but then to have the nerve to say HE was wronged? Please.

Consumer and Customer are also different things "Mr. GOD"

rolleye.gif


consumer jackass, not customer, and yes there is a difference. i got this deal tonight...TONIGHT at best buy no questions asked...why didn't they have a problem with it? don't tell me they are stupid, i know that already, but we both know they just read off of a screen. so what is the deal? why would best buy be allowing the free game with the mario bundle and circuit city not? because circuit city sucks nuts and couldn't keep a customer to save their lives
Just because you got it at BB doesn't mean you should've, or he should've, or that now everyone should.

b) if he replaced 'circuit city' with 'wal-mart' would you still care? NO? KTHXBYE
Yup, he was wrong no matter where he shopped.
 

achiral

Senior member
Apr 10, 2000
397
0
0
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got lucky i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

Thats almost as sorry as saying I haggled a new BMW 325 down to $20,000 and whined about on this forum saying sales was being a total ass saying I have attitude problem and then I'm told I'm a good customer. LMFAO.

i wouldn't have any problem with you doing that because you would still be an awesome consumer regardless of your pitiful statements

 

achiral

Senior member
Apr 10, 2000
397
0
0
deeko would you be kind enough to show us proof that he shouldn't get this deal because i'm pretty sure you're just blowing smoke out of your ass

just as much as lacrosse could be wrong so could you, you haven't backed your argument up yet. i'm just asking someone to show all so we can end this
 

WHSLacrossekid

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2001
6,330
0
0
Deeko, let me guess. You think that people are defrauding Staples becaue their Coupon codes can be found anywhere on the internet correct?
 

AsianriceX

Golden Member
Dec 30, 2001
1,318
1
0
Originally posted by: WHSLacrossekid
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: WHSLacrossekid
Honkey, I'm not the moron. Do the math. It's $0.04 overcharge. I don't care what you say, but $0.01 is an overcharge.

I think that this was a MISTAKE brough on by Nintendo, which CC took part in, and the guy had a really bad attitude. If he would have been professional, I would have left it alone, but it was totally unprofessional of him.

read what I said above. All stores use the cents as a code.

alright, but it's still an overcharge contrary to what Honkey says

Alrighty, this is a deal sponsored by Nintendo, and as such, retaliers will follow Nintendo's rules. Close analysis of the special promotion page reveals that "It's an awesome deal. Just 149.95 MSRP*" That asterisk refers to this little snippet of information, "*Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price for Nintendo GameCube. Available at participating retailers. Actual prices at retail may vary" Now, I guess as an intelligent human being, I would consider a 4 cent difference to be within the varied limit of the MSRP. I wouldn't think that CC has a hidden agenda to overcharge every Gamecube by 4 cents so they can rack up massive amounts of profit.
However, the Super Mario Sunshine Gamecube Pak carries a price tag of 159.99, 10 dollars higher than a regular Gamecube system alone. That would raise a flag in my head that maybe the SMSGP doesn't qualify as part of the deal.
Let's summarize what I've said so we don't misunderstand each other. I think you were in the wrong here and that CC should have denied you the deal. I also think that CC handled the situation poorly and that the threatening employee would be given some sort of consequence for his attitude. That being said, I believe that you knew that the SMSGP was NOT part of the promotion Nintendo was offering and sucessfully bullied CC into giving you the deal just so that you'd shut up. Don't tell me that you honestly believe there's no difference between 4 cents over MSRP, compared to 10 dollars.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Originally posted by: achiral
deeko would you be kind enough to show us proof that he shouldn't get this deal because i'm pretty sure you're just blowing smoke out of your ass

just as much as lacrosse could be wrong so could you, you haven't backed your argument up yet. i'm just asking someone to show all so we can end this

The only way to really prove who is right would be to get the official communication from Circuit City giving details of the deal. I bet it says that it is not valid on the bundle, and common sense agrees, and so do the majority of the people in this thread.

Deeko, let me guess. You think that people are defrauding Staples becaue their Coupon codes can be found anywhere on the internet correct?
Nah.

Nice try though.
 

SOSTrooper

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2001
2,552
0
76
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got lucky i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

Thats almost as sorry as saying I haggled a new BMW 325 down to $20,000 and whined about on this forum saying sales was being a total ass saying I have attitude problem and then I'm told I'm a good customer. LMFAO.

i wouldn't have any problem with you doing that because you would still be an awesome consumer regardless of your pitiful statements


It is actually more ignorant to defend someone who is obviously wrong than to recognize wrong and claim it is right. I always have a baseball bat in my car because people such as yourself need a good punishment. You're the reason why companies are losing profit, because you take advantage of everything in your life and support people who tries to rip others off like you. 4 of 5 people say that this is something wrong to do, yet you come here and tries to defy gravity. No matter how you bend this, this is something wrong to do, and will hurt the economy if done in masses. Aside from the point, he treated the employees like a dirty old rag, they're human too. What if someone comes up to you and threaten if you dont sell him your computer for couple bucks he will call the police? In your case you would support him, which is quite silly and laughable.
 

exp

Platinum Member
May 9, 2001
2,150
0
0
Worst Experience ever at Circuit City
I can't comment about your particular incident, but I think Circuit City has always had the worst customer service. I remember one time I tried to return an item and the guy behind the counter refused, saying that they were required to wait 20 days (!) for my check to clear. When I pointed out that the return limit was only 14 days he just shrugged his shoulders and said "Oh well." LMAO :D

The little punk kept insisting that the full 20 days were necessary to clear the check and that no exceptions could be made to the 14 day return policy. And to top it off he even refused my polite request to speak with a supervisor. His obstinance was really bizarre, especially since I wasn't arguing or even raising my voice, just carrying on a typical civil discussion. I dunno, maybe some previous customers actually bought into that BS story and settled for their defective products, and he thought he had another victim on his hands.
 

WHSLacrossekid

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2001
6,330
0
0
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: achiral
deeko would you be kind enough to show us proof that he shouldn't get this deal because i'm pretty sure you're just blowing smoke out of your ass

just as much as lacrosse could be wrong so could you, you haven't backed your argument up yet. i'm just asking someone to show all so we can end this

The only way to really prove who is right would be to get the official communication from Circuit City giving details of the deal. I bet it says that it is not valid on the bundle, and common sense agrees, and so do the majority of the people in this thread.

Deeko, let me guess. You think that people are defrauding Staples becaue their Coupon codes can be found anywhere on the internet correct?
Nah.

Nice try though.

I'm blaming the poor advertising on Nintendo, but the horrible employees on CC. I'm not blaming the poor advertising on CC
 

achiral

Senior member
Apr 10, 2000
397
0
0
don't stores usually allow deals like these when someone purchases a system at 149.99 and above? that has been done before. also the retail price may vary thing is important i think because it allows for retailers to make their own decisions basically, so i guess circuit city has the power to deny lacrosse the game, that doesn't mean they don't have bad policies. circuit city blows
 

achiral

Senior member
Apr 10, 2000
397
0
0
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got lucky i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

Thats almost as sorry as saying I haggled a new BMW 325 down to $20,000 and whined about on this forum saying sales was being a total ass saying I have attitude problem and then I'm told I'm a good customer. LMFAO.

i wouldn't have any problem with you doing that because you would still be an awesome consumer regardless of your pitiful statements


It is actually more ignorant to defend someone who is obviously wrong than to recognize wrong and claim it is right. I always have a baseball bat in my car because people such as yourself need a good punishment. You're the reason why companies are losing profit, because you take advantage of everything in your life and support people who tries to rip others off like you. 4 of 5 people say that this is something wrong to do, yet you come here and tries to defy gravity. No matter how you bend this, this is something wrong to do, and will hurt the economy if done in masses. Aside from the point, he treated the employees like a dirty old rag, they're human too. What if someone comes up to you and threaten if you dont sell him your computer for couple bucks he will call the police? In your case you would support him, which is quite silly and laughable.

ok stalin, your reign is over and communism has fallen, go back to your cave. your analogy is actually the laughable thing, it is illogical. who's stupid? the guy who got the deal and shouldn't have or the poor stupid ass retailer who caved in?
 

SOSTrooper

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2001
2,552
0
76
Originally posted by: WHSLacrossekid
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: achiral
deeko would you be kind enough to show us proof that he shouldn't get this deal because i'm pretty sure you're just blowing smoke out of your ass

just as much as lacrosse could be wrong so could you, you haven't backed your argument up yet. i'm just asking someone to show all so we can end this

The only way to really prove who is right would be to get the official communication from Circuit City giving details of the deal. I bet it says that it is not valid on the bundle, and common sense agrees, and so do the majority of the people in this thread.

Deeko, let me guess. You think that people are defrauding Staples becaue their Coupon codes can be found anywhere on the internet correct?
Nah.

Nice try though.

I'm blaming the poor advertising on Nintendo, but the horrible employees on CC. I'm not blaming the poor advertising on CC


They're only horrible, because you're a horrible customer. I've shopped at Circuit City many times and NOT ONE TIME where I was treated poorly. This is because I tread them like people too. So please don't take your experience and blow it out of proportion. You're only treated badly because you were treating them badly. If you go to CompUSA and Toys R Us and Best Buy and try to push them the same way to your advantage then I doubt you will get 'good' customer service.
 

isekii

Lifer
Mar 16, 2001
28,578
3
81
Originally posted by: exp
Worst Experience ever at Circuit City
I can't comment about your particular incident, but I think Circuit City has always had the worst customer service. I remember one time I tried to return an item and the guy behind the counter refused, saying that they were required to wait 20 days (!) for my check to clear. When I pointed out that the return limit was only 14 days he just shrugged his shoulders and said "Oh well." LMAO :D

The little punk kept insisting that the full 20 days were necessary to clear the check and that no exceptions could be made to the 14 day return policy. And to top it off he even refused my polite request to speak with a supervisor. His obstinance was really bizarre, especially since I wasn't arguing or even raising my voice, just carrying on a typical civil discussion. I dunno, maybe some previous customers actually bought into that BS story and settled for their defective products, and he thought he had another victim on his hands.

you should have mentioned their TV Commercial

"we'll take it back no questions asked"

 

SOSTrooper

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2001
2,552
0
76
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: achiral
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't know the specifics of the deal, but did it ever occur to you that you are WRONG? Because I think you are; did the sign say "free with gamecube or gamecube bundle?" Nope. And who the hell whines about being called 'dawg'? Little girls, whiney little girls. If I were you, I'd shut my whiney little mouth, you got the deal you weren't supposed to get, so be quiet.

how petty is that difference anyway? circuit city is a piece of crap company and there shouldn't be a difference between buying the bundle and buying the regular unit because it causes stupid ass problems like this. deeko you are obviously a circuit city sympathizer and nothing will ever convince you to change your opinion and lacrosse you got lucky i think but you were just being a good consumer, people shouldn't bash that. this just further points out the farce of customer service at circuit city

Thats almost as sorry as saying I haggled a new BMW 325 down to $20,000 and whined about on this forum saying sales was being a total ass saying I have attitude problem and then I'm told I'm a good customer. LMFAO.

i wouldn't have any problem with you doing that because you would still be an awesome consumer regardless of your pitiful statements


It is actually more ignorant to defend someone who is obviously wrong than to recognize wrong and claim it is right. I always have a baseball bat in my car because people such as yourself need a good punishment. You're the reason why companies are losing profit, because you take advantage of everything in your life and support people who tries to rip others off like you. 4 of 5 people say that this is something wrong to do, yet you come here and tries to defy gravity. No matter how you bend this, this is something wrong to do, and will hurt the economy if done in masses. Aside from the point, he treated the employees like a dirty old rag, they're human too. What if someone comes up to you and threaten if you dont sell him your computer for couple bucks he will call the police? In your case you would support him, which is quite silly and laughable.

ok stalin, your reign is over and communism has fallen, go back to your cave. your analogy is actually the laughable thing, it is illogical. who's stupid? the guy who got the deal and shouldn't have or the poor stupid ass retailer who caved in?

It doesnt take an IQ more than 60 to understand it. It is common sense that if you're trying to rip people off, they'll defend themselves, just as you would defend yourself if someone tries to rip you off. Obviously you lack the intelligence to understand such a simple concept. Now feel free to log off and think about it on your bed.
 

achiral

Senior member
Apr 10, 2000
397
0
0
obviously lacrosse felt like he was getting ripped off, but that got left out of your fabulous analysis...
 

WHSLacrossekid

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2001
6,330
0
0
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: WHSLacrossekid
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: achiral
deeko would you be kind enough to show us proof that he shouldn't get this deal because i'm pretty sure you're just blowing smoke out of your ass

just as much as lacrosse could be wrong so could you, you haven't backed your argument up yet. i'm just asking someone to show all so we can end this

The only way to really prove who is right would be to get the official communication from Circuit City giving details of the deal. I bet it says that it is not valid on the bundle, and common sense agrees, and so do the majority of the people in this thread.

Deeko, let me guess. You think that people are defrauding Staples becaue their Coupon codes can be found anywhere on the internet correct?
Nah.

Nice try though.

I'm blaming the poor advertising on Nintendo, but the horrible employees on CC. I'm not blaming the poor advertising on CC


They're only horrible, because you're a horrible customer. I've shopped at Circuit City many times and NOT ONE TIME where I was treated poorly. This is because I tread them like people too. So please don't take your experience and blow it out of proportion. You're only treated badly because you were treating them badly. If you go to CompUSA and Toys R Us and Best Buy and try to push them the same way to your advantage then I doubt you will get 'good' customer service.

I tried it at TRU, and they had a TRU printed sign that stated the SKU'S that were applicable. That was the end of that. Didn't complain at all
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Originally posted by: achiral
don't stores usually allow deals like these when someone purchases a system at 149.99 and above? that has been done before. also the retail price may vary thing is important i think because it allows for retailers to make their own decisions basically, so i guess circuit city has the power to deny lacrosse the game, that doesn't mean they don't have bad policies. circuit city blows

Huh? That 149.99 thing makes NO sense.

Like SOSTrooper said, while they may have had poor service, they are HUMANS, humans can only take so much abuse before they snap.
 

WHSLacrossekid

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2001
6,330
0
0
I was just looking at my receipt. He rang the Sunshine bundle up at $110.00. Anyone want to try and pricematch, I'll scan it for you.














Now, that is something that would be underminding CC
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Originally posted by: WHSLacrossekid
Originally posted by: SOSTrooper
Originally posted by: WHSLacrossekid
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: achiral
deeko would you be kind enough to show us proof that he shouldn't get this deal because i'm pretty sure you're just blowing smoke out of your ass

just as much as lacrosse could be wrong so could you, you haven't backed your argument up yet. i'm just asking someone to show all so we can end this

The only way to really prove who is right would be to get the official communication from Circuit City giving details of the deal. I bet it says that it is not valid on the bundle, and common sense agrees, and so do the majority of the people in this thread.

Deeko, let me guess. You think that people are defrauding Staples becaue their Coupon codes can be found anywhere on the internet correct?
Nah.

Nice try though.

I'm blaming the poor advertising on Nintendo, but the horrible employees on CC. I'm not blaming the poor advertising on CC


They're only horrible, because you're a horrible customer. I've shopped at Circuit City many times and NOT ONE TIME where I was treated poorly. This is because I tread them like people too. So please don't take your experience and blow it out of proportion. You're only treated badly because you were treating them badly. If you go to CompUSA and Toys R Us and Best Buy and try to push them the same way to your advantage then I doubt you will get 'good' customer service.

I tried it at TRU, and they had a TRU printed sign that stated the SKU'S that were applicable. That was the end of that. Didn't complain at all

So you DID know that it wasn't applicable, BEFORE you went. What did you do, seek out a store that didn't have SKU's listed? If you are blaming them because it is a blanket deal all stores have, then knowing one store won't let you, its common sense that the others shouldn't either.